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Flash Super Sweet Spot

Cohenski

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 1, 2014
Messages
20
Every wonder why flash kills sometimes and doesn't kill other times? Well, flash has a super sweet spot. If you hit with just the outside of your body then flash does less damage and has lower knock-back than if you hit with the middle of your body.

The outside body hitbox does 16 damage and the inner body hitbox does 19 damage.

The seems to reemphasize the important of getting perfect angles/shortens. Sometimes multiple angles will hit, but probably only one will kill.
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
OKAY so did testing because I was curious

The ending hitbox always does 16%.
I could only replicate the 19 dmg hit on shortens. The only ways I could get it was shorten and hit so that both the ending hitbox and the "flub" traveling hitbox of side-b that does 3% hit them at the same frame. It still says only 1 hit, but does 19%.

Pic:
photo_1433357556909.jpg


That's the only explanation I could think of. Never heard of two hitboxes of the same moving hitting on the same frame, bug? Idk what pmdt member to tag here tbh.
 
Last edited:

Shockbound

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Sammamish, WA
G&W's Neutral-B (Chef) does the exact same thing, but it probably happens a lot more frequently than what seems to be going on with Wolf's Side-B due to how frequently Chef is used and how easy it is to do.

Chef's main hitbox (9%) only lasts for a single frame and comes out on the exact same frame that the projectile (5%) comes out, so intentionally trying to hit somebody with the main hitbox will sometimes cause both to connect simultaneously for 14%. Only the main hitbox appears in the picture that I provided due to a special property of projectile hitboxes that causes them to disappear as soon as hitlag begins so that they don't linger for long enough to hit secondary targets that run into them, so the projectile hitbox never makes any sort of appearance on screen if there's already a hurtbox for it to connect with on its first frame. But we're talking about Wolf, not G&W, and I don't think the 3% hit is a projectile, so I'll just get into my explanation of what a "super sweetspot" actually does.

The formula for knockback shows that the base damage of a hitbox, noted as "d" in the formula, is a huge contributor to its launching power, seeing as the resulting number can vary wildly with just 1 additional base damage. Training mode registers two hits connecting simultaneously as a single hit, but I suspect that the way the formula handles it is by calculating the knockback using the properties (angle, BKB, KBG, visual effect, but most importantly the base damage) of the hitbox with the highest base damage out of the ones that struck the target on that frame. If Chef added the projectile to its base damage then it would be the best gimping tool in the entire game, so I know that the extra damage doesn't contribute to that attribute of the formula.

However, this calculation uses the newer % of the target (including damage dealt from the launching attack) in a variable noted as "p" in the formula, so all hitboxes that dealt damage on that frame will make an impact on the result through this variable rather than contributing to the base damage of the launching hitbox. A few % of difference for "p" matters way, way less than what a few % of difference for "d" would be, but it at least makes some difference. What this means for Wolf's Side-B is that the target's percentage is treated as if it were 3% higher before getting hit by the 16% hit.

To see the difference in knockback for yourself, go to training mode and select Jigglypuff as your opponent, then choose Yoshi's Story as the stage. Set her damage to 93%, change the CPU to "Control" so that you can ensure that she doesn't DI, and KO her once to get her to spawn on the top platform. Let her respawn invincibility run out, then Side-B at her from the left half of the stage. Watch as she dies off of the side to the normal 16% hit, but off of the top to the "super sweetspot"; the difference is very small, but it's there.

The exact properties of the flub hitbox have me confused. It seems as if it is entirely separate from Wolf's Side-B animation and is instead attached to a certain part of his body during the course of it. The way I could tell was that I managed to get it to land on the frame after I had already hit my target with the strong hit (it somehow moves during hitlag) when shortening on the first frame that I was able to. As a result, the knockback and hitstun from the strong hit was completely replaced by the weak hit. It takes some precise spacing, but it can be easily reproduced in frame advance by walking into Jigglypuff and then waiting for Wolf's collision points during his idle animation to push her slightly away before hitting her with frame 1 shortened Side-B. I don't have any experience with this character whatsoever so I am unsure of whether this actual bug is already common knowledge among Wolf mains, but this definitely seems fix-worthy.

I am not affiliated with the PMDT in any way, shape, or form; please do not stab me.
 
Last edited:

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
G&W's Neutral-B (Chef) does the exact same thing, but it probably happens a lot more frequently than what seems to be going on with Wolf's Side-B due to how frequently Chef is used and how easy it is to do.

Chef's main hitbox (9%) only lasts for a single frame and comes out on the exact same frame that the projectile (5%) comes out, so intentionally trying to hit somebody with the main hitbox will sometimes cause both to connect simultaneously for 14%. Only the main hitbox appears in the picture that I provided due to a special property of projectile hitboxes that causes them to disappear as soon as hitlag begins so that they don't linger for long enough to hit secondary targets that run into them, so the projectile hitbox never makes any sort of appearance on screen if there's already a hurtbox for it to connect with on its first frame. But we're talking about Wolf, not G&W, and I don't think the 3% hit is a projectile, so I'll just get into my explanation of what a "super sweetspot" actually does.

The formula for knockback shows that the base damage of a hitbox, noted as "d" in the formula, is a huge contributor to its launching power, seeing as the resulting number can vary wildly with just 1 additional base damage. Training mode registers two hits connecting simultaneously as a single hit, but I suspect that the way the formula handles it is by calculating the knockback using the properties (angle, BKB, KBG, visual effect, but most importantly the base damage) of the hitbox with the highest base damage out of the ones that struck the target on that frame. If Chef added the projectile to its base damage then it would be the best gimping tool in the entire game, so I know that the extra damage doesn't contribute to that attribute of the formula.

However, this calculation uses the newer % of the target (including damage dealt from the launching attack) in a variable noted as "p" in the formula, so all hitboxes that dealt damage on that frame will make an impact on the result through this variable rather than contributing to the base damage of the launching hitbox. A few % of difference for "p" matters way, way less than what a few % of difference for "d" would be, but it at least makes some difference. What this means for Wolf's Side-B is that the target's percentage is treated as if it were 3% higher before getting hit by the 16% hit.

To see the difference in knockback for yourself, go to training mode and select Jigglypuff as your opponent, then choose Yoshi's Story as the stage. Set her damage to 93%, change the CPU to "Control" so that you can ensure that she doesn't DI, and KO her once to get her to spawn on the top platform. Let her respawn invincibility run out, then Side-B at her from the left half of the stage. Watch as she dies off of the side to the normal 16% hit, but off of the top to the "super sweetspot"; the difference is very small, but it's there.

The exact properties of the flub hitbox have me confused. It seems as if it is entirely separate from Wolf's Side-B animation and is instead attached to a certain part of his body during the course of it. The way I could tell was that I managed to get it to land on the frame after I had already hit my target with the strong hit (it somehow moves during hitlag) when shortening on the first frame that I was able to. As a result, the knockback and hitstun from the strong hit was completely replaced by the weak hit. It takes some precise spacing, but it can be easily reproduced in frame advance by walking into Jigglypuff and then waiting for Wolf's collision points during his idle animation to push her slightly away before hitting her with frame 1 shortened Side-B. I don't have any experience with this character whatsoever so I am unsure of whether this actual bug is already common knowledge among Wolf mains, but this definitely seems fix-worthy.

I am not affiliated with the PMDT in any way, shape, or form; please do not stab me.
Based
 
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