Fixing 15 Minute Melee/Brawl.

[Master Knight DH]

I find 15 Minute Melee/Brawl underutilized, because it's meant to reward players who can figure out what to do in different situations with their given character, which unfortunately SSB screws up at rewarding in general, and mere failure in the mode can get annoying fast.

Here's what I'd do with it:
*Make it 10 Minute whatever. 15 minutes is simply too long. If the AI has to compete with that of other Multi-Mans, that's fine, as long as it's not a broken mess.
*Get rid of the cheap explosive spawns. Goes without saying, but it's especially bad here because it's a good way to have attempts that manage to get to 1-2 minutes left go to waste for no valid reason.

I haven't run into any other concerns that isn't relating to character balance. Planking? Okay, sure, you're going to set records like the guys who actually do get speed KOs on the Wireframes/Alloys.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

One way to handle the 15-minute matches of Multi-Man Brawl is to set the CPU players on the easier skill levels to start out. For instance...

15:00 - 10:01: CPU Level 1
10:00 - 5:01: CPU Level 3
5:00 - 2:01: CPU Level 5
2:00 - 0:16: CPU Level 7
0:15 - 0:00: CPU Level 9

Basically, the longer that you're alive, the higher up the CPU's skill level will go. But the CPU will be at its hardest when you're down to the final 15 seconds of the match.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I think the AI already gets gradually stronger.

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

If the alloys don't get gradually stronger as time goes on, I think it would be a good idea to add it, to make it more of a challenge instead headache.
The spawning of the alloys was always a big problem for me, I wish they would make it so once you've defeated all the alloys already on the field then 3 more will spawn so you won't just be fighting numerous enemies one after another

 

[Master Knight DH]

If the alloys don't get gradually stronger as time goes on, I think it would be a good idea to add it, to make it more of a challenge instead headache.
The spawning of the alloys was always a big problem for me, I wish they would make it so once you've defeated all the alloys already on the field then 3 more will spawn so you won't just be fighting numerous enemies one after another

Heh. That idea would reward fast KOing better. Sure it could be manipulated by constantly keeping one Wireframe/Alloy alive intentionally, but so could the current pattern via memorization. There ought to be a way to make sure that Wireframes/Alloy gradually spawn when the 5 Wireframe/Alloys quota isn't met too.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Another idea: KOing enough times provides you Food. Which would make offensive power more useful. (I'm looking at you, Bowser.)

 

[SmashChu]

I'm glad to see these kinds of ideas. A breath of fresh air.

I like the idea of food. Though, it should be a spawn item like normal. This way, you can heal up just a little bit and keep fighting.

As for the AI, I think they might get slightly smarter. Not sure. They are always easy to KO. I know that the longer you go, the more often they spawn.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Multi-man in general is really boring. I don't know of anyone who actually cares about high scores, and for the unlocks DK and Pit largely allow them with little effort so that's about how most people experience them now.

The problem with improving mutli-man in general (and yeah 15 minute is the worst) is that there really isn't a core fun dynamic in these modes. Generally when you have a questionable mode, the best design approach is to ask what the core engagement is and how you can emphasize that while downplaying any weaknesses as much as possible. The problem is that there really isn't a core engagement. High score attack is done much better by classic and all-star, and break the targets is far more interesting as a timed challenge. If you want a timed challenge that involves fighting, there's the event mode. Multi-man just throws a swarm of very weak characters with super limited moves at you; how is that fun again? Cruel is at least vaguely interesting since it breaks that a bit, but it's still not really fun since it comes down to a handful of gimmicks that exploit just how stupid the AI really is. I'm not sure how you can conclude that these modes could get at rewarding adaptability in a variety of situations given that the incredibly limited movesets of the wire frames/alloys basically guarantee that the number of situations that might exist is very narrow, and in 15 minute especially you're always thinking about maximizing predictability due to the cost of any failure. Classic seems to emphasize the ability to handle various circumstances far more heavily to the point that I'm not seeing how 15 minute could even begin to compete.

My solution isn't much of one for those looking for a nice sounding answer, but I think it's for the best. These modes should just be removed, and any development effort however meager they may have required should be invested in making the other single player modes better. Ideally SSB single player should have a big competitive high score/time attack focus, and fixing up break the targets (individual stages were kinda critical!), carefully designing the point systems for classic and all-star to reward interesting things (and saving the trouble on adventure; just exclude it), stick with homerun contest which works very well in both games it has been in, maybe bring back and put some work into some of the various interesting side modes with this kind of potential (board the platforms, race to the finish, boss battles), make some good events but keep the list as short as your list of good and unique ideas for event matches, and maybe do a new thing or two if you have some legitimately good ideas. Then give everything online leaderboards, ideally ones that tell you your worldwide rank in any given challenge both overall and with whichever character you used, and make the GUI connecting all these modes really nice with super fast retries for failed attempts and you'll have SSB single player in its perfect form. I just don't see multi-man's place in this; they could throw it back in because it's probably really simple to make, but I can't really imagine a way to make it fun or interesting so I'd prefer they just drop it.

 

[Ussi]

Tbh i don't want to waste 15 minutes of my life

 

[SmashChu]

Multi-man in general is really boring. I don't know of anyone who actually cares about high scores, and for the unlocks DK and Pit largely allow them with little effort so that's about how most people experience them now.

The problem with improving mutli-man in general (and yeah 15 minute is the worst) is that there really isn't a core fun dynamic in these modes. Generally when you have a questionable mode, the best design approach is to ask what the core engagement is and how you can emphasize that while downplaying any weaknesses as much as possible. The problem is that there really isn't a core engagement. High score attack is done much better by classic and all-star, and break the targets is far more interesting as a timed challenge. If you want a timed challenge that involves fighting, there's the event mode. Multi-man just throws a swarm of very weak characters with super limited moves at you; how is that fun again? Cruel is at least vaguely interesting since it breaks that a bit, but it's still not really fun since it comes down to a handful of gimmicks that exploit just how stupid the AI really is. I'm not sure how you can conclude that these modes could get at rewarding adaptability in a variety of situations given that the incredibly limited movesets of the wire frames/alloys basically guarantee that the number of situations that might exist is very narrow, and in 15 minute especially you're always thinking about maximizing predictability due to the cost of any failure. Classic seems to emphasize the ability to handle various circumstances far more heavily to the point that I'm not seeing how 15 minute could even begin to compete.

My solution isn't much of one for those looking for a nice sounding answer, but I think it's for the best. These modes should just be removed, and any development effort however meager they may have required should be invested in making the other single player modes better. Ideally SSB single player should have a big competitive high score/time attack focus, and fixing up break the targets (individual stages were kinda critical!), carefully designing the point systems for classic and all-star to reward interesting things (and saving the trouble on adventure; just exclude it), stick with homerun contest which works very well in both games it has been in, maybe bring back and put some work into some of the various interesting side modes with this kind of potential (board the platforms, race to the finish, boss battles), make some good events but keep the list as short as your list of good and unique ideas for event matches, and maybe do a new thing or two if you have some legitimately good ideas. Then give everything online leaderboards, ideally ones that tell you your worldwide rank in any given challenge both overall and with whichever character you used, and make the GUI connecting all these modes really nice with super fast retries for failed attempts and you'll have SSB single player in its perfect form. I just don't see multi-man's place in this; they could throw it back in because it's probably really simple to make, but I can't really imagine a way to make it fun or interesting so I'd prefer they just drop it.

1)In order for something to be fixed, there has to be a problem. You really don't define what that is.
2)Your assuming that because there is another mode which also does score attach, that this mode is flawed.
3)Removing a mode to be a solution is dumb. That's the worst possible answer you could give. You pretty much just gave up.
4)On that note, why even consider removing a mode that would not that much time in programming. It's not like they cut characters so they could put Multi-Man in.

You are over thinking the modes. Multi-man is pretty much "Beat up a bunch of dudes." It's survival mode in other games, just that you fight swarms of enemies. Just because another mode has a high score function doesn't mean another is irrelevant.

You claim that no one likes this and you couldn't see how anyone could like it, well I like it. So there.

 

[Master Knight DH]

15 Minute Melee/Brawl is a simple concept: it's an endurance fest that actually expects offense. If you don't care about offense, you are not going to get a high score. This is in contrast to Endless Melee/Brawl, where you don't have a time limit so you can just play defense; or 100 Man Melee/Brawl, where the Wireframes/Alloys are still limited enough to make offense more important. In short, it's a happy medium, at least when it actually is balanced out well.

Now you can say that the Wireframes/Alloys have limited moves, but you're lucky if you're dealing with only 1 or 2 of them at a given moment, and even if that happens, you'd only want that for survival, not scoring. You'd be surprised how many scenarios can pop up because of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUp7kuhruK8 (KO count of 762)
I took 273% here. Let that sink in when you click this link.

Let me talk about what 15MM/B does right:
*Speed KOs are critical because they reduce the time of further spawns. If you want to get a high score, you have to whip out the power moves. Unless you're a character like Bowser or Ganondorf, who can KO with ANY A move, although Bowser Jab can only KO on the second hit, but more importantly, their standard combat moves can KO at good speed.
*Spamming the same move is a crippled strategy too, because you'll inevitably KO at only about half the speed in general. You have to use multiple KO moves to have them refresh each other a bit.
*Let's not forget about clump punishment moves. Those are a boon for both survival and the average KO speed. (Of course, 1-on-1 battles wouldn't make clump punishment worth caring about all that much.)
*Items end up working in favor of the Wireframes/Alloys. Low KB items only serve to get in the way if you grab them but give the Wireframes/Alloys easier damage options. Seriously, you can't make lasting use of damage, but the Wireframes/Alloys can. Meanwhile, high KB items (aside from the Screw Attack in Melee, that thing was actually broken on its own merits) do not last long enough to provide a decent fraction of a good KO score. In fact, it says something when Wobuffet is actually one of the more desirable Pokemon for getting from a Poke Ball.

So yeah, no reason for it to need removal. Nerf the survival timeframe, perhaps. But definitely keep the mode.

I am currently not sure what else to say, but this should suffice.

 

[Jimnymebob]

I'd like to see 15 Minute Brawl replaced by, or at least have an alternative, 15 Minute Survival type mode. Just have it customisable as a standard match when it comes to CPU level, stages and items, and just see how many actual CPU characters that have 1 stock each (not Alloys or Wireframes) you can take out in 15 minutes, and have difficulty and amount defeated tie into unlocks.

I don't have a problem with 100 Man Brawl, it can be a fun and mindless distraction, especially with two players, but Cruel is just there for the sake of being unfairly difficult, and 15 minutes is tedious and will be spent with DK or Jigglypuff.

 

[Master Knight DH]

15 minutes is tedious

Hence why I'd nerf it to 10 minutes, and at least part of why the Alloys have a better sense of variety and 15MB also throws actual characters at you.

Keep in mind, though, that the Wireframes/Alloys/whatever SHOULD be Glass Cannons. That way, you'd want to try for KOing rather than stunlocking, and the "cannon" part means that you can't lolbowser the mode.

 

[Jimnymebob]

Hence why I'd nerf it to 10 minutes, and at least part of why the Alloys have a better sense of variety and 15MB also throws actual characters at you.

Keep in mind, though, that the Wireframes/Alloys/whatever SHOULD be Glass Cannons. That way, you'd want to try for KOing rather than stunlocking, and the "cannon" part means that you can't lolbowser the mode.

10 minutes is still bad enough to mindlessly hit buttons to kill a bunch of Alloys and the odd actual character whose only means of killing you is by blindsiding you pretty much. Making them glass cannons would be even more frustrating though; sure, you'd be able to kill them quicker, but they'd be able to kill you quicker.

You can easily take 150%+ as it is on 15 Minute Brawl, shortening the match length and increasing their damage output isn't really the best solution to fixing it in my opinion.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I'm saying they already ARE Glass Cannons, more or less. Though I'd be for fixing the power gaps, not least because characters like Marth and Pikachu still are among the better ones for 15MM, while Bowser struggles more than he should to survive.

And the mode doesn't boil down to button mashing. Try getting above 750 KOs in 15MM with Link some time. He may be a safe character, but move staling hurts his speed KOing ability like you wouldn't believe.

 

[Jimnymebob]

And the mode doesn't boil down to button mashing. Try getting above 750 KOs in 15MM with Link some time. He may be a safe character, but move staling hurts his speed KOing ability like you wouldn't believe.

Why shouldn't the mode boil down to mashing though? It's easy enough as it is, cheap shots aside, it just takes forever to do. What reward do I get for trying to face the CPU's like actual human players in a match, when I can just use DK's Ground Pound special or Pikachu's aerials and d-smash and get the same result?

The bolded part is just showing your arrogance to be quite honest, I'm afraid. I didn't claim that I was amazing at 15 Minute Brawl, nor did I admit to mashing, and I'm not particularly interested in whether or not you can achieve said feat.

 

[Master Knight DH]

So the mode is easy just because of character specific stuff? Great. Hey, while we're at it, I recommend using Yoshi to set a record on Home Run Contest. Beating up an immobile target is easy enough and there's no reward for bothering to try doing so with other characters.

Also, I just love how you call me arrogant, and yet you probably think that telling people "don't get hit" isn't being such. You already claimed the mode amounts to button mashing. But let's see:
*Break the Targets is not an endurance fest, neither is Home Run Contest. The only way either of them are are through repetition of doing the exact same thing.
*Classic/Adventure/All-Star all reset your percentage after a given segment. It makes survival considerably easier.
*Endless Melee lacks a time limit to prevent defensive play from high scoring.

There. Now you can call me arrogant for saying that much, but really, I can make the same claims about people who defend the other, less underplayed modes. The only one I'd really have a point about to say it's invalid would be Cruel Melee, purely from that suffering too much Fake Difficulty. 15 Minute Melee tells you that characters have plenty of moves, use them--part of why throws being unable to poolshark for KOing in general in Brawl aggravates me.

 

[Jimnymebob]

So the mode is easy just because of character specific stuff? Great. Hey, while we're at it, I recommend using Yoshi to set a record on Home Run Contest. Beating up an immobile target is easy enough and there's no reward for bothering to try doing so with other characters.

I'm glad you understand .

Also, I just love how you call me arrogant, and yet you probably think that telling people "don't get hit" isn't being such. You already claimed the mode amounts to button mashing. But let's see:
*Break the Targets is not an endurance fest, neither is Home Run Contest. The only way either of them are are through repetition of doing the exact same thing.
*Classic/Adventure/All-Star all reset your percentage after a given segment. It makes survival considerably easier.
*Endless Melee lacks a time limit to prevent defensive play from high scoring.

I don't really get the point your trying to make here. Telling someone to not get hit is stupid, and pointless advice more than anything.

There. Now you can call me arrogant for saying that much, but really, I can make the same claims about people who defend the other, less underplayed modes. The only one I'd really have a point about to say it's invalid would be Cruel Melee, purely from that suffering too much Fake Difficulty. 15 Minute Melee tells you that characters have plenty of moves, use them--part of why throws being unable to poolshark for KOing in general in Brawl aggravates me.

I only said you were showing arrogance when you said "Try getting above 750 KOs in 15MM with Link some time". You were clearly trying to show off with that statement and belittle my skill at the game just because I don't hold the mode in the same regard that you do. However, you still haven't answered my question of why should I use more moves?

 

[Master Knight DH]

Here's the points I'm trying to make:
*No, I'm not saying I'm the most skilled person on the planet whatsoever. What I was trying to make a point about is that Link has difficulty getting >750 KOs because of stale move issues.
*Using more moves means fewer problems with stale moves. And it makes it easier to spot patterns with a given character, like Yoshi's only KOing air move is his Up Air, and his ground moves consequently being more reliable about KOing. (He's another character who stale moves consequently hurts, because he needs to keep his Up Air fresh.)
*My point is to try the challenges without abusing the options the game provides to merely decrease the difficulty. You might find out exactly why something is designed the way it is.