I've been playing around with this for a while, now ive got it consistently enough to make a thread about it
pretty simple, no doubt many marios have been abusing it for 5 years already but we, somebody will read this that didn't know
if your messing up, and keep getting shield grabbed, its cos your either being predictable with your attacks or because your just messing up getting behind the shield. Unfortunately sometimes if your mistime the aerial, characters with fast bairs will still manage to hit you even if you land behind ( quick reflex falco neone :/ ) and don't get the shield stun quite right.
I was playing as such last night, against good friends who know my style well, it was like a trip back to when i started (we haven't played in months), being shield grabbed constantly
oh well anyway..
yeah so their shield is up, you just launched at them with full momentum. you have 3 options - i just mentioned the first two, and clearly a nair isnt going to do anything againts someodys shield. So the solution..
So you have all momentum, dair just as you get to the very top f their shield. Hold away from your opponent, an let the dair roll for a few frames. It sometimes shield pokes for one, and whittles down their shield a really nice amount if the whole thing hits
More importantly, do it a few times and learn how to time the FF so you hit the ground after the final dair hit, but still manage to get in the floor hitbox. If you held back during the dair, then FF'd afterwards, their shield should be small enough so the floor hitbox pokes them. It only does like what, 1% damage? But if you hit the l-cancel (incase anybody else XP'd it, almost all of my friends when playing Mario mis-time the l-cancel on the dair. You should be able to follow up with a nair pretty much immediately - they can escape, but have very little time to do so), they get a tiny bit up, (% dependant i believe, i want to look into this with more depth) and get shoved about a foot away. You have 11 frames of lag on this move, so the stun if more then enough to follow up with either a uair at 60% or so, or a weak nair at above uair comboable % -> u/dsmash or something
edit - i forgot, for really aggressive (ie dumb) players, if you wait about 1/4 of a second tend to try and advance instantly because the poke wasn't expected, and the floorhitbox is such a shock hitbox anyway. Try landing the dair hit, then straight away charging an up angled Fsmash, or as i do, calmly walk away for a couple of frames then turn around and fsmash
if they are light shielding from the beginning, i believe this doesn't apply. However, the dair hits fast enough so they cannot switch from heavy to light mid attack.. but i think if they LS'd your other attacks they would get knocked out of grab range anyway, so their subconscious isnt going t be advising LS'd anyway.
Does anybody know the amount of shield stun on a bair? Cos this doesn't work every time if they have full shield from the start, but if it is (typically) a tiny tiny bit less then the amount dair whittles down the shied, then it will always poke. So i am now thinking, auto canceled bair has 4 frames of landing lag, and dairs hitbox comes out on frame 10, so add that up, and lets say that marios jump start animiation is.. 3/4 frames? That gives us a shield pressure of.. (assuming shield stun from bair is 8) a 10 frame disadvantage
:/
thats not that good, unless i got my maths wrong. If they buffer a roll; then bair (to the back of the shield) -> dair (on the front because your not going to get enough momentum backwards to follow up consistently) shield pressure/poke doesnt really apply. The shield stun is going to be about what, 8 frames top? So yeah, they have a 10 frame advantage to roll out, thankfully minus whatver the startup is on their roll, and what frame they become invincible on (normally about 3/4) Anybody who is anybody will manage to escape from that, every time without fail unless they arn't in the habit of buffering. Would work otherwise though... but you could probably beat those guys without it hehe (man i need to start buffering, was only introduced to this whole shield frame + buffering thing yesterday) at least if you were to jump and attack the other side of the shield with dair, maybe they will be tricked into rolling the wrong way and we might we able to clip them when invincible.
Does anybody have any thoughts on this? As in a way whereby we could pressure the shield, with a little less of a disadvantage of frames. We are not falco, we need some innovative ways to pressure the shield consistently. If it ends in dair all the better because the floor hitbox is an almost certain death setup at like, 50-70 char dependant, and they are probably going to miss the tech on the uair because the floor hitbox comes as a surprise.
Could always perfectly space an auto canceled uair, then jump right into the dair. Still we have the same 14frame (or so? somebody who has knowledge please confirm this), disadvantage problem though. But at least they might try to grab after the uair, which is 7 frames, given shield stun i believe that we would hit them (on the 10th frame of dair - 1st HB) before we get grabbed.
Any thoughts? you should do, if you dont think of something!
pretty simple, no doubt many marios have been abusing it for 5 years already but we, somebody will read this that didn't know
if your messing up, and keep getting shield grabbed, its cos your either being predictable with your attacks or because your just messing up getting behind the shield. Unfortunately sometimes if your mistime the aerial, characters with fast bairs will still manage to hit you even if you land behind ( quick reflex falco neone :/ ) and don't get the shield stun quite right.
I was playing as such last night, against good friends who know my style well, it was like a trip back to when i started (we haven't played in months), being shield grabbed constantly
oh well anyway..yeah so their shield is up, you just launched at them with full momentum. you have 3 options - i just mentioned the first two, and clearly a nair isnt going to do anything againts someodys shield. So the solution..
So you have all momentum, dair just as you get to the very top f their shield. Hold away from your opponent, an let the dair roll for a few frames. It sometimes shield pokes for one, and whittles down their shield a really nice amount if the whole thing hits
More importantly, do it a few times and learn how to time the FF so you hit the ground after the final dair hit, but still manage to get in the floor hitbox. If you held back during the dair, then FF'd afterwards, their shield should be small enough so the floor hitbox pokes them. It only does like what, 1% damage? But if you hit the l-cancel (incase anybody else XP'd it, almost all of my friends when playing Mario mis-time the l-cancel on the dair. You should be able to follow up with a nair pretty much immediately - they can escape, but have very little time to do so), they get a tiny bit up, (% dependant i believe, i want to look into this with more depth) and get shoved about a foot away. You have 11 frames of lag on this move, so the stun if more then enough to follow up with either a uair at 60% or so, or a weak nair at above uair comboable % -> u/dsmash or something
edit - i forgot, for really aggressive (ie dumb) players, if you wait about 1/4 of a second tend to try and advance instantly because the poke wasn't expected, and the floorhitbox is such a shock hitbox anyway. Try landing the dair hit, then straight away charging an up angled Fsmash, or as i do, calmly walk away for a couple of frames then turn around and fsmash
if they are light shielding from the beginning, i believe this doesn't apply. However, the dair hits fast enough so they cannot switch from heavy to light mid attack.. but i think if they LS'd your other attacks they would get knocked out of grab range anyway, so their subconscious isnt going t be advising LS'd anyway.
Does anybody know the amount of shield stun on a bair? Cos this doesn't work every time if they have full shield from the start, but if it is (typically) a tiny tiny bit less then the amount dair whittles down the shied, then it will always poke. So i am now thinking, auto canceled bair has 4 frames of landing lag, and dairs hitbox comes out on frame 10, so add that up, and lets say that marios jump start animiation is.. 3/4 frames? That gives us a shield pressure of.. (assuming shield stun from bair is 8) a 10 frame disadvantage
:/
thats not that good, unless i got my maths wrong. If they buffer a roll; then bair (to the back of the shield) -> dair (on the front because your not going to get enough momentum backwards to follow up consistently) shield pressure/poke doesnt really apply. The shield stun is going to be about what, 8 frames top? So yeah, they have a 10 frame advantage to roll out, thankfully minus whatver the startup is on their roll, and what frame they become invincible on (normally about 3/4) Anybody who is anybody will manage to escape from that, every time without fail unless they arn't in the habit of buffering. Would work otherwise though... but you could probably beat those guys without it hehe (man i need to start buffering, was only introduced to this whole shield frame + buffering thing yesterday) at least if you were to jump and attack the other side of the shield with dair, maybe they will be tricked into rolling the wrong way and we might we able to clip them when invincible.
Does anybody have any thoughts on this? As in a way whereby we could pressure the shield, with a little less of a disadvantage of frames. We are not falco, we need some innovative ways to pressure the shield consistently. If it ends in dair all the better because the floor hitbox is an almost certain death setup at like, 50-70 char dependant, and they are probably going to miss the tech on the uair because the floor hitbox comes as a surprise.
Could always perfectly space an auto canceled uair, then jump right into the dair. Still we have the same 14frame (or so? somebody who has knowledge please confirm this), disadvantage problem though. But at least they might try to grab after the uair, which is 7 frames, given shield stun i believe that we would hit them (on the 10th frame of dair - 1st HB) before we get grabbed.
Any thoughts? you should do, if you dont think of something!