Figuring out Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop.

[Ulevo]

Alright, so I had a bunch of matches today, and thus this discussion is here. Throughout my matches I noticed times when my Shuttle Loop kills were really consistent, and other matches where my opponent would for some seemingly unknown reason get out of what I thought was a guaranteed combo. I have also seen posts on here with complaints about Shuttle Loop hitting them out of the way of the 2nd hit with the 1st hit, which I also started experiencing in training mode when I got home to test it.

So. I suspect that rage might have something to do with part of this nonsense. However! I figured out something that might be causing Meta Knight to miss his Shuttle Loop's second hit: you can angle it. Try it. If you hold back, he goes more vertically upward. If you hold it forward, he goes more on a 45 degree.

Some other factors at work here. There are two primary ways to link in to Shuttle Loop. First is the dash attack, and the second is the forward throw. Something I noticed is that dash attack has two primary hit boxes, one when it first comes out, and one that lags behind. In training mode, you can tell which is which since the initial hit box will do 6% while the secondary meaty hit will do 5%. If you hit an opponent with the initial hit box, it will send them more in front of you horizontally. If you hit them with the weaker hit box, it will send them more straight above you. How you effectively combo them seems to really depend on which part of the dash attack you use. Also, as far as I can tell, I think linking in to Shuttle Loop from forward throw requires you to get momentum from the dash, meaning you can't link the combo if Meta Knight is standing still before he throws.

I don't have anyone to test this with since I'm home now, and no second controller. I need people to check this stuff out and see if you can DI in such a way where these don't allow Meta Knight to link. I feel like whether or not Meta Knight can reliably do this or not will heavily decide how good or bad Meta Knight is.

 

[Ulevo]

Whoa. Okay. So I just discovered that not only can you angle it, but how high you go is particularly dependent on this! If you try to hold back on the controller for instance right after Meta Knight leaves the ground, you will go vertically like usual. But! If you hold back as he loops the second time and continues to travel upwards, you go significantly higher!

Edit: Guys, I need help. I'm goofing around with Shuttle loop right now on Hyrule Temple. On the platforms on the far right of the stages, normally I can get over the first platform. But somehow, I have figured out how yet, you can make Meta Knight go so high he reaches the SECOND platform.

 

[Lavani]

dthrow generally combos more reliably than fthrow from my experiences, fthrow gets you 2% more damage though.

Aside from angling it to account for your opponent's position relative to yours, I think the most important thing is that the opponent isn't too far above you when you connect the first hit. Hit 1 has a lot of vertical reach, while hit 2 is more in front of MK. Hit 1's knockback is supposed to set up into hit 2, but a high hit on hit 1 isn't covered by hit 2's hitbox, resulting in the opponent falling out.
The solution is to try and be as close to the same elevation as your opponent as possible before going for Shuttle Loop.

 

[Ulevo]

dthrow generally combos more reliably than fthrow from my experiences, fthrow gets you 2% more damage though.

Aside from angling it to account for your opponent's position relative to yours, I think the most important thing is that the opponent isn't too far above you when you connect the first hit. Hit 1 has a lot of vertical reach, while hit 2 is more in front of MK. Hit 1's knockback is supposed to set up into hit 2, but a high hit on hit 1 isn't covered by hit 2's hitbox, resulting in the opponent falling out.
The solution is to try and be as close to the same elevation as your opponent as possible before going for Shuttle Loop.

No, read above. You can actually manipulate the individual loops of Shuttle Loop. I'm doing it right now to try and figure out how it works. You can ridiculous height if you do it properly.

 

[Lavani]

No, read above. You can actually manipulate the individual loops of Shuttle Loop. I'm doing it right now to try and figure out how it works. You can ridiculous height if you do it properly.

I'm aware, lots of upBs are like this. Forward for more distance and less height, backward for no horizontal and all vertical.

 

[Ulevo]

Ah, never mind. I found a neat trick, but the majority of the height I was getting on Temple was due to the platform cancelling the doward portion of the loop. Still, this is a handy technique potentially on certain platform stages.

 

[ItoI6]

Its not really handy most of the time and its actually really annoying when that happens on the top platform on battlefield because it will cause you to always miss the 2nd hit if you landed the first hit of shuttle loop. Also it doesnt really matter what part of the dash attack you land at low percents but at mid and high percents the only way to reach them in time with shuttle loop before they airdodge is to hit with the meaty initial hitbox of dash attack. It cant be DIed out of to a certain extent of course but I dont know what that is. If you want the upb to combo you need to hit with the middle part of it, sometimes near the very top of the loop it does combo well but sometimes ill hit at the exact same spot and they just randomly fly out so idk.

 

[daedgaem]

Same experience as you ito. The first hit of the Upb will juggle them out of the second one at completely random times. Incredibly annoying losing kills and instead get punished hard because of that.

 

[LimitCrown]

Holding forward while you use Shuttle Loop might be the main reason why the attack can miss. If you're standing right next to an opponent when you use the attack, then it's more likely to miss when you hold that direction.

 

[Overswarm]

Shuttle loop 2nd hit isn't guaranteed. Ever.

You can SDI the first hit of the shuttle loop if you see it coming and the second will whiff. You have to have good reaction time or know it is coming, but I've been able to do it consistently enough that I look forward to attempted shuttle loops.

 

[LimitCrown]

Is Shuttle Loop guaranteed to miss if you SDI the first hit? I thought that since you can slightly change the direction that Shuttle Loop travels, you could anticipate that.

 

[Overswarm]

Is Shuttle Loop guaranteed to miss if you SDI the first hit? I thought that since you can slightly change the direction that Shuttle Loop travels, you could anticipate that.

If you can anticipate the direction being pressed on a controller for the few frames of the first hit and compensate, more power to you

 

[LimitCrown]

Well, how much will the second hit of Shuttle Loop be guaranteed to miss if you SDI the first hit?

 

[Overswarm]

Well, how much will the second hit of Shuttle Loop be guaranteed to miss if you SDI the first hit?

What?

It just misses.

 

[Ulevo]

Its not really handy most of the time and its actually really annoying when that happens on the top platform on battlefield because it will cause you to always miss the 2nd hit if you landed the first hit of shuttle loop. Also it doesnt really matter what part of the dash attack you land at low percents but at mid and high percents the only way to reach them in time with shuttle loop before they airdodge is to hit with the meaty initial hitbox of dash attack. It cant be DIed out of to a certain extent of course but I dont know what that is. If you want the upb to combo you need to hit with the middle part of it, sometimes near the very top of the loop it does combo well but sometimes ill hit at the exact same spot and they just randomly fly out so idk.

You can combo them with true combo if you hit with the 5% 2nd hitbox of the dash attack, but you need to hold back on the stick with Shuttle Loop to go more vertical as opposed to horizontal. It's awkward because if you do it too quick you wind up doing a reverse Shuttle Loop and whiffing the whole thing, but it's possible with practice. I really think the reliability of this depends on how you manipulate the loop and when you use it in your full hop/short hop leading up to it.

 

[ItoI6]

do you really think i dont know you can angle shuttle loop

that later hitbox of dash attack has less knockback then the first hitbox and you haev to jump to either side so shuttle loop doesnt whiff. it doesnt combo in time at later percents because you have to spend time to position the shuttle loop correctly+less knockback

 

[Ulevo]

do you really think i dont know you can angle shuttle loop

that later hitbox of dash attack has less knockback then the first hitbox and you haev to jump to either side so shuttle loop doesnt whiff. it doesnt combo in time at later percents because you have to spend time to position the shuttle loop correctly+less knockback

I'm not implying you do or don't. I'm just explaining what I've found is required in order to get the latter half of the dash attack to combo.

 

[Blaziking17]

Now I need to try this for myself. Maybe it'll help with the double hit for the Shuttle Loop. Good find, Ulevo.