Fellow Kirbsters, could use some help with approaching heavy defense.

[kyoskue]

So I'm no stranger to fighting games in general or Smash, but given the buffs that defensive play has received in this iteration of Smash, my traditionally heavy offensive play is starting to get me into trouble.

Now I don't think that the shield and camping game is OP or anything like that, but it IS quite strong and I need to get better used to utilizing it myself. But that's more of a sidenote than the actual purpose of this topic.

So I'm finding that my Kirby has a lot of trouble against a particular playstyle of Samus where they roll away and basically just keep to projectiles for the whole match. While it is annoying, I do win these bouts at a fairly consistent rate (probably around 50-60% of them), but its infuriatingly difficult to do so and I have to COMPLETELY change every manner in which I play Kirby to do so.
He just doesn't have the reach or speed to really deal with this playstyle effectively, and victory seems to rely on your opponent messing up their simple gameplan rather than you actually outplaying them.

I was wondering if anyone's found any tricky plays or has any good tips for dealing with this stuff.
I've been using Stone to shield break and conditioning them to dash attacks but feinting into B Reversed Inhale/throws on Samus rolling back into the stage, but I can't really deal reasonable levels of damage on players adept at this style, which is rather annoying. It just becomes a pointlessly drawn out battle of attrition, and I still (usually) win, I'd just like to expedite the process if possible.

 

[Seinfeld Season 4 on VHS]

Woops mb, actual reply below

 

[Seinfeld Season 4 on VHS]

If their main option of movement is rolling then there is a trick I like to use. When I play Kirby, all I'm thinking about is stage control.

If you force a Samus to the edge and you begin to jump at her, chances are she's gonna try to roll towards the middle of the stage. Float back and catch her with a dair. From there, it's easy money combo games. When you force a roller towards the edge, you limit their options to only roll towards you.

Sounds like you already have a good punishing mindset, but keep in mind you dont always want to hit the other character, you want to hit where their going to be. I played 500+ games of Jigglypuff on For Glory just to get in the habit of putting myself in position to catch rolls with rests. Same mentality works for Kirby and the dair tactic I mentioned.

 

[kyoskue]

If their main option of movement is rolling then there is a trick I like to use. When I play Kirby, all I'm thinking about is stage control.

If you force a Samus to the edge and you begin to jump at her, chances are she's gonna try to roll towards the middle of the stage. Float back and catch her with a dair. From there, it's easy money combo games. When you force a roller towards the edge, you limit their options to only roll towards you.

Sounds like you already have a good punishing mindset, but keep in mind you dont always want to hit the other character, you want to hit where their going to be. I played 500+ games of Jigglypuff on For Glory just to get in the habit of putting myself in position to catch rolls with rests. Same mentality works for Kirby and the dair tactic I mentioned.

Two things:

1. You can freely edit your posts, so it would've been better for you to copy/paste your message into your original reply.
2. Not to sound ungrateful or cocky, but I'm talking more about players of a higher calibur than that. They don't just roll on instinct, they read you as much as you're reading them. Like I said, I still outplay this tactic roughly 60% of the time, but I keep getting matched up with players that are REALLY good at it lately.
This playstyle obviously has a rather extreme edge over Kirby, and its pathetically easy to master, so its frustrating to come up against players that are so good at it. I can see everything that they're doing from a mile away, but having to work so hard to overcome such a cheesetastic playstyle is... not very fun or interesting to watch. (^_^())

Still, the quick reply is appreciated.

So, how about custom specials?
I haven't gotten 'em all yet, any of Kirby's that immediately jump out as being a good counter to this playstyle?

 

[murdokdracul]

Two things:
So, how about custom specials?
I haven't gotten 'em all yet, any of Kirby's that immediately jump out as being a good counter to this playstyle?

Only thing I can think of is using Ice Breath to block projectiles, but I'm not even sure if that works. I've never actually used it. You might try the Up B that kicks up dirt from the ground (can't remember what it's called) because it's faster and stronger and might catch someone off-guard.

 

[Seinfeld Season 4 on VHS]

Two things:

1. You can freely edit your posts, so it would've been better for you to copy/paste your message into your original reply.
2. Not to sound ungrateful or cocky, but I'm talking more about players of a higher calibur than that. They don't just roll on instinct, they read you as much as you're reading them. Like I said, I still outplay this tactic roughly 60% of the time, but I keep getting matched up with players that are REALLY good at it lately.
This playstyle obviously has a rather extreme edge over Kirby, and its pathetically easy to master, so its frustrating to come up against players that are so good at it. I can see everything that they're doing from a mile away, but having to work so hard to overcome such a cheesetastic playstyle is... not very fun or interesting to watch. (^_^())

Still, the quick reply is appreciated.

So, how about custom specials?
I haven't gotten 'em all yet, any of Kirby's that immediately jump out as being a good counter to this playstyle?

Yeah, sorry about the double reply, I didnt even see that first reply until I posted the second. I hate how my work only has IE, makes this site harder to use lol.

I guess I didn't get a proper read for what level of players you were struggling with, I'm used to replying to threads on /r/crazyhand where people can't deal with the simplest of roll spam tactics.

I also like to just jump and float away and see what their reaction is before I commmit to anything. If they shield then the next time you can tomohawk -> grab. if they roll away then you can catch that with a dash, as you said in the original post. The thing with Kirby is you have to commit heavily to every move. Once you've started an attack its hard to not be punished for it, especially against samus where even a retreating fair is likely to get you grabbed.

Kirby is fun beacause you get to be super offensive but the fact that every move is commital makes defensive play especially good as you've menntioned already.

Against high caliber defensive play, it's an uphill battle really.

 

[kyoskue]

Bleah, kind of figured that.
Its a shame really, I love using the lil' guy but methinks he needs another tool for mixups or just to catch people at a distance.

Oh well, maybe I can come up with some neat tricks of my own.

Thanks anyway, guess that I'll hit the lab sometime and see if I can make anything stick.
If I find anything I'll bring it to everyone's attention, seeing how this seems to be a common problem.

 

[Seinfeld Season 4 on VHS]

If his normal up b had more range and a tad less lag, it would be useful at range. how it is now... not so much

 

[LaserLockOn]

Duck, Kirby has an insanely low duck that can evade most of Samus attacks and projectiles, her dash attack and grab most importantly. You'll have to learn to keep your ground and not chase a grounded opponent in the air, they WILL roll. It's most learning when to duck or shield while approaching, and then punishing with Bair, grab or smash. Don't overuse Dair until you find a better opportunity, Fastfall sourspot nair to dtilt is a good counter against roll behinds and is safer against shield grabbing. You can even do neat little combos with it if you elaborate on it.

 

[kyoskue]

Alright, so stick to grounded more.
Got it.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Samus' roll is particularly bad. I'd say it's probably the worst in this game and is incredibly easy to punish by just reacting to it. I wouldn't say to stick to the ground more over the air though. Treat them equally and learn to mix up your approaches.

Sticking to the ground is the fastest way to close the gap between the characters, but there is this middle ground of space that Samus specifically can control against Kirby. While on the ground unless you are crouching or shielding you're in a threat zone (even still while crouching a fully charged charge shot or homing missile can hit you). While ducking is good I'd say you have more of an approach answer by being in the air. Ducking can only really lead to a dtilt if you're close enough and I'm willing to bet Samus is probably too far away to begin with.

If you just float, with your multiple jumps, in that safe area in the air there is so much pressure for them to do something since she can't just sit in shield forever. You should be able to punish Samus based on that reaction or at least get a feel for what their particular option choice is. Fair on shield is pretty safe if spaced right, but still needs to be mixed up. If you can cross up your fair and dair, by landing behind them sometimes rather than in front, on shield it can really mess up your opponent's punishes too.

Don't forget the importance of mindgames in Smash4 though, you can't just always throw out an attack, empty hopping is really key in this game. If the Samus player is staying at the edge a lot you can really cover a lot of options and pressure them through your tools.

I can't give too much specific advice until I see how you are playing really. Is this just all For Glory experience or is it in a tournament setting? Sadly you have to play the match-up slow and there isn't much you can do about it.

 

[kyoskue]

@ WootSnorlax
I usually stick to the air in general, I could stand to ground my game more regardless due to the increased strength in defensive gameplay anyway.
Also, I think you're misrepresenting Samus' aerial game this time around, its pretty decent, and the Screw Attack out of shield is far more effective than it used to be too.
I can tell its a bad matchup, slow and steady wins the race, I gotcha.

I normally play about mid-high tournament level...
But I messed up my right hand pretty bad in an accident a few years ago and its really throwing off my tech skill when it matters most, and on top of that I've been having recent trouble dealing with my Tourette's Syndrome, so I've stopped going to tournaments.
I can pull off everything that I want to do in a calm environment of about 4-ish people, but tournaments are pretty much impossible now, its too embarrassing. (>_<())

 

[WootSnorlax]

I'm not misrepresenting Samus' aerial game because I actually enjoy playing her. Her only good OOS option if she is facing you is screw attack and it's a pretty vertical move. Granted the move's disjoint is pretty big. You should always watch out for that move, but that's not Kirby specific advice hence why I didn't add into what I said earlier. Her nair OOS sucks and her bair OOS is pretty good but she shouldn't be facing away from you. Even if she did try to bair you're too short anyway so she can't use it to punish. There's a reason why you don't see many high level Samus players in Smash 4. I wouldn't say it's a bad matchup for Kirby though, it should be a winning one.

 

[kyoskue]

Fair enough, its probably more due to my lack of familiarity with her in this game then, so I'll just practice more.

 

[kirbyfan66]

If you want to play really offensively, then the most important thing to know is which of Kirby's moves are safe on block. All of Kirby's retreating aerials are, if not completely safe, difficult to punish (except maybe Down Air? Depends on the matchup). His tilts are generally safe from very far away, but in the mid-range and up close they're easily punishable. Dash Attack is also unsafe. If I were to play offensively, I would mix it up with using Kirby's tilts on the ground (they cover a lot of options) and using retreating aerials to get something started. If you get a good hit confirm, then chase the opponent down - whether it's on the ground or in the air is up to you, and it depends on the situation.

And be unpredictable! Kirby has a lot of ways to get in the opponents head and make them think you'll be doing something else. Take risks at lower %s, and whatnot. If your tournaments allow Customs, definitely check out our Custom Moves Thread. There's at least one fan of every one of Kirby's specials, from what I can understand. I think that 3231 is Kirby's best (as do the Boards, apparently, as that's our #1 set).

Take all of that with a grain of salt, though - I'm a much more defensive Kirby that only goes in once I have my hit confirm. It works well for me and I enjoy it, but I respect more offensive Kirby's. It's tough but a lot of fun! And even effective once mastered.

 

[kyoskue]

Thanks kirbyfan66, I'll keep this in mind.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

use kirbys floats and down air when they make a mistake a punish with up tilts or down smash after the down air...really good damage.

 

[IGottaStick]

Whenever I fight a Spamus with my Kirby, I will usually Dair into Neutral-B to absorb her charge shot and I will spam it against them. Kirby: Right Back At Ya if you know what I mean

 

[Fluidityt]

If their main option of movement is rolling then there is a trick I like to use. When I play Kirby, all I'm thinking about is stage control.

If you force a Samus to the edge and you begin to jump at her, chances are she's gonna try to roll towards the middle of the stage. Float back and catch her with a dair. From there, it's easy money combo games. When you force a roller towards the edge, you limit their options to only roll towards you.

Sounds like you already have a good punishing mindset, but keep in mind you dont always want to hit the other character, you want to hit where their going to be. I played 500+ games of Jigglypuff on For Glory just to get in the habit of putting myself in position to catch rolls with rests. Same mentality works for Kirby and the dair tactic I mentioned.

Except good Samus won't do this. I was in this exact position last night vs a Kirby, and the very first time I got forced to the ledge I knew that if I rolled I was going to get nailed with something. Took the ledge games approach and managed a well time up-special with his down-air gimp attempt.

So I'm no stranger to fighting games in general or Smash, but given the buffs that defensive play has received in this iteration of Smash, my traditionally heavy offensive play is starting to get me into trouble.

Now I don't think that the shield and camping game is OP or anything like that, but it IS quite strong and I need to get better used to utilizing it myself. But that's more of a sidenote than the actual purpose of this topic.

So I'm finding that my Kirby has a lot of trouble against a particular playstyle of Samus where they roll away and basically just keep to projectiles for the whole match. While it is annoying, I do win these bouts at a fairly consistent rate (probably around 50-60% of them), but its infuriatingly difficult to do so and I have to COMPLETELY change every manner in which I play Kirby to do so.
He just doesn't have the reach or speed to really deal with this playstyle effectively, and victory seems to rely on your opponent messing up their simple gameplan rather than you actually outplaying them.

I was wondering if anyone's found any tricky plays or has any good tips for dealing with this stuff.
I've been using Stone to shield break and conditioning them to dash attacks but feinting into B Reversed Inhale/throws on Samus rolling back into the stage, but I can't really deal reasonable levels of damage on players adept at this style, which is rather annoying. It just becomes a pointlessly drawn out battle of attrition, and I still (usually) win, I'd just like to expedite the process if possible.

Also, to the OP, this Kirby I lost to the first game was very aggressive. The second game I had to rely heavily on missiles. Third game he adapted (shielding and dodging properly) and won again.

Also, our OOS options are greater than screw attack (which is still sex if you hit our shield and will definitely smash Kirby from ground) but as our roll sucks, we short hop air dodge out of shield, giving us command attack options with zair, and at the end of the SH we can do any aerial we want. Also, our ftilt can smash kirby OOS if spaced properly and we're both over 100% (6 frame attack i believe)


I have some replays from that kirby fight if interested

Whenever I fight a Spamus with my Kirby, I will usually Dair into Neutral-B to absorb her charge shot and I will spam it against them. Kirby: Right Back At Ya if you know what I mean

Not trying to troll or flame, but legit curious, how in the hell could a kirby fan reference that god awful spin-off? I've been a Kirby fan since NES games, and couldn't stomach (even as a kid) that show >.>

 

[kirbyfan66]

Not trying to troll or flame, but legit curious, how in the hell could a kirby fan reference that god awful spin-off? I've been a Kirby fan since NES games, and couldn't stomach (even as a kid) that show >.>

ahhh I don't know anything about you but I'm a fan just based off of that post. English or Japanese that show is bad.

Anyway, I for one would be interested in the replays. I still think aggressive Kirby's are rare and would like to see some. Plus Samus is rare, period!

 

[IGottaStick]

I am an extremly patient and defensive kirby who enjoys long swallocides on the beach.

Edit: This is the best video of all time!

 

[Fluidityt]

ahhh I don't know anything about you but I'm a fan just based off of that post. English or Japanese that show is bad.

Anyway, I for one would be interested in the replays. I still think aggressive Kirby's are rare and would like to see some. Plus Samus is rare, period!

I'll get to them tonight or tomorrow

 

[kyoskue]

Thanks for all of the replies everyone, unfortunately I've been extremely busy with things and haven't had too much free time, so I'll give a proper reply the next time that I am able.
Videos would be appreciated, Fluidityt. Thanks in advance.