Fast Fall Lags. (solution found) (New tech? Page 2)

[rev]

So fast falling pit n-air, or Ikes b-air for example (I'm sure there are plenty of other moves? maybe all?) creates lag when you hit the ground. If you don't fast fall the move, you can do it again with no lag right after hitting the ground.

When you fast fall you character has an animation of hitting the ground harder and bends there knees some for the impact, but lags.

So what does this mean??? Fast falling is a bad idea in most cases?
Not only is fast falling not benefical, it seems punished.

Any comments? Idears?

 

[miniboss]

fastfall lag

yea dont want to state the obvious or anything but i agree that fastfalling seems incredibly weakened compared to melee, even when taking the slower physics into account. IMO fastfalling has become more of a technique to vary fall speeds to confuse opponents rather than string together combos. I can't comment on fastfalling increasing lag time upon landing but that would reinforce the notion that fastfalling and combos have a much weaker relationship now.

 

[SynikaL]

What's worse about Fast Fall in this game is the Buffer System kills any attempt to utilize FF close to the ground, as it forces you to Crouch. Seriously, the Buffer System kills this game.


-Syn

 

[Plaz]

I noticed this, too! I thought I was the only one worried about it. It actually may be that fastfalling brings you to the ground before your attack animation finishes and results in the lag. It may not be the fall itself. I tried to see if there was a difference between a normal jump and a fastfallen jump landing animation, but it looked like there was no difference without the attack.

 

[limitbreak]

Yea with Dedede if you short hop and fast fall a b air, there is landing lag. But my two solutions are this ... dont fastfall the b air orrr get a higher jump and then fast fall it. I guess it all depends on the situation really. I use still have the habit of sh fast falling his b air but if you space it right, theres not much room to get punished.

 

[Chaosblade77]

What's worse about Fast Fall in this game is the Buffer System kills any attempt to utilize FF close to the ground, as it forces you to Crouch. Seriously, the Buffer System kills this game.


-Syn

This is probably the "lag" they are talking about. I gave up on fast falling my b-airs because there was a lot more lag and I was punished a lot more often for it. While I was practicing after getting punished for it a few times, I realized that you do crouch every time, but I'm surprised the buffer system would do that since it should just take the down signal and use it while your fast falling, not once you hit the ground.

Honestly, I think it's more of a bug than an intentional part of the game because of that. Fast falling and crouching are two different actions, but they are both activated by the same signal.

 

[zapdose]

Does the technique in this thread help mitigate the problem?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152275

 

[rev]

I just figure it out, I'm not going to name it, Ill let the community do that.(although i see no reason not to call it JCFF , jump canceled fast fall)

But if you fast fall and flick up on the control stick after the fast fall when you hit the ground.
(you can also use x/y to do this, but you must be fast) no noobs allowed haha

It cancels the lag....


YES. WHOS YOUR DADDY

EDIT: Let me clearify a little. You have to shorthop, begin the fast fall by flicking down on the ctrl stick. (You cannot hold it, that would make you fast fall quicker, but causes lag) and then flick up on the ctrl stick before you hit the ground (or use x/y). If you do a C-stick smash attack quick enough you will never leave the ground. Or you can leave the ground and do another aireal.

 

[Urglor]

This isnt that bad though. This just shows that they wanted to make a new game like they said not just a clone of melee with new characters and extra features.

 

[rev]

until i figured out how to cancel it, that was lame as crap. but no problem now, this has evolved into one of the best techs possible. it's pretty much l canceling

 

[TrueRedemption]

First off, I have done it, grats on the find, its about 1/2 of SHFFLing as it allows you to string together approaches better, or lead into a smash, but it doesn't allow for a quick retreat or anything that i saw, you were stuck to a smash or another jump. If its possible to dash out of it, yeah, L canceling has just been rediscovered.

Anyway, I'm still working on getting the timing consistent, but to me it seems you should be able to cancel the landing lag of any aerial with this same technique, not just fast fall landings. I mean maybe I'm missing something big, but it seems to me like this should be something of a big deal 0,o No you can't chase your opponent on foot directly from an unfinished aerial, least I haven't been able to get a dash, but for instance Olimar's DAir spike has this same lag, and immediately canceled into and USmash... Not to mention the timing may be pretty tricky, but why couldn't you instead of canceling into a smash perhaps get a jab or a tilt? Am I missing something, this looks like a big step for comboing in brawl...


-True

 

[NoVaLombardia]

lol Up/Y/X cancelling

 

[Umby]

Jump Canceled Fast Falling. That's almost like a conflict within itself. Good **** though, IMO.

 

[SynikaL]

This isnt that bad though. This just shows that they wanted to make a new game like they said not just a clone of melee with new characters and extra features.

lol, people are so fvcking stupid.


-Kye

 

[Keitaro]

I just figure it out, I'm not going to name it, Ill let the community do that.(although i see no reason not to call it JCFF , jump canceled fast fall)

But if you fast fall and flick up on the control stick after the fast fall when you hit the ground.
(you can also use x/y to do this, but you must be fast) no noobs allowed haha

It cancels the lag....


YES. WHOS YOUR DADDY

EDIT: Let me clearify a little. You have to shorthop, begin the fast fall by flicking down on the ctrl stick. (You cannot hold it, that would make you fast fall quicker, but causes lag) and then flick up on the ctrl stick before you hit the ground (or use x/y). If you do a C-stick smash attack quick enough you will never leave the ground. Or you can leave the ground and do another aireal.

Freaking awesome find. Thank you.

 

[Keku]

Guys, it's probably just that you're falling on the ground too fast. People report that you can cancel the lag of your aerials by landing at the right moment. That's why fast falling your aerials seems slower. It's not the fast fall that lags, it's landing at an inappropriate time in general.

I could be wrong though.

 

[joenopride]

Must try this. If it works...

 

[SebIno]

so let me get this straight...

short hop
aerial
tap-down fast fall
tap right back up or press X/Y
smash right out of it?

That's sick...even though it's gonna take a little getting used to. Couple things, though:

Should this be applied just to all aerials or do some have little enough lag that you don't have to worry about it?

Like limitbreak said, a higher jump seems to create less lag after a FF. Is that too highly situational or useable as well?

Guys, it's probably just that you're falling on the ground too fast. People report that you can cancel the lag of your aerials by landing at the right moment. That's why fast falling your aerials seems slower. It's not the fast fall that lags, it's landing at an inappropriate time in general.

^I've seen a trend in that, too.

 

[usea]

I can't get this to work. Let me get some details straight since you were a little vague.

-Do you press up/x/y right before hitting the ground? Or at any time during the jump?
-Does it only work from a short hop, you seemed to imply that it did.
-Why can't you hold down from the fastfall? You said it makes you fall faster, but I don't see how that's possible. The extra lag you're seeing might be from a buffered crouch after landing?
-The landing lag is cancelled into a jump? Which you can then cancel with any smash? Is that what should be happening?

I tried to get it to work with several characters, but using diddy kong's fair seemed like a good test since the move comes out quickly, the move lasts long enough, and its landing lag is noticable. No matter when I pressed jump after fastfalling a shorthopped fair, I couldn't cancel his landing lag into anything. including a jump or a smash. The only time I could act any sooner after landing, was if I had already passed the frame window which causes landing lag; it had nothing to do with pressing up or jump.

Any help or clarification?

PS: I HATE how the cstick seems to not function around the peak of a jump in training mode on 1/2 and 1/4 speed. I tested it so many times, it seems like it just ignores cstick presses during that period, at that speed. Odd and frustrating.

 

[mventre]

I have a quick question as well: If I have tap-jump set to "off" (meaning that I couldn't use up to jump) can I still use up as I hit the ground or will I be forced to use x/y?

 

[-Aether]

Does this function like L-canceling with X/Y/Up? Or, does it only work with fastfalls without aerials?

 

[usea]

Oh ok, I get what's going on here. He's not talking about aerials at all, just landing lag from a jump.

Well, there is no extra landing lag from a jump if you fastfall. You're imagining it, or mistaking something else (buffered crouch?) for lag. Pressing up doesn't do anything, except maybe buffer a jump instead of a crouch.

 

[GiantKiller]

Right, this is for canceling the lag on empty short hops. And it probably is just replacing the crouch in the buffer with a jump, which can then be canceled into a smash? That'd be my guess.

Seems very useful, thanks.

[GK EDIT: Could a roll be buffered instead? That might be pretty useful, too. Something to test when I get home.]

-GK

 

[rev]

I read over the questions I could and I hope I can remember to cover them all.
For starters I will explain it detailed.

!!!! READ THIS PART !!!!!!
I can confirm, this will not work for every aireal. Pit's NAir works, his Dair will not.
So each character may have moves it does not work for.

But it does work for most of all charactersvaireals.

If you can't do it with pits nair, or Ike,s Bair - you're not doing it right. sorry.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finger moves:
Short hop
Fast Fall(Flick it quickly, no holding at all if you have that habit)
Do your aireal
Upon hitting the ground short hop again, that cancels the lag. And you will jump if you let it. OR you can use an option below I listed.


Exmp.

Pits N-Air:
Doing SH Pit's N air without fast falling has no lag. You can do it over and over.
But if you fast fall his N-Air, I'm not sure what you would call it but when he hits the ground he crouches a bit and lags. No option to do anything.

However if you Short hop, Fast Fall, Do N-Air, and then short hop again upon hitting the ground, you cancel all lag. (Whoo hoo right? thats not even the best part)

After canceling the lag of the fast fall by short hopping right when you hit the ground. It is your choice from there.

Options:
-Let your character jump again and do another Aireal
(you can shorthop forward, backward, in place, and repeat to do over and over)

-Dash
(Yes, sweet. >_< Again can't speak for everything. But all pits/ikes moves this works for, you CAN dash out of it. If you are smart, dash, sheild cancel and forward samsh )

-Smash
If you are happy with where you land, you can smash before the character jumps again after canceling the lag with a shorthop on landing

-Roll
I have tested this the least, I hate rolling haha. But I know that you can infact roll out of it if you do it right. It seems pretty hard though.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So when you get this all down, you should be able to SH, FF, ' 'air, JCFF, dash forward, sheild cancel, and forward smash.

You can upsmash of course without sheild canceling. But you have to sheild cancel to forward/back smash, or down smash.



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope this helps, there are limitations it isn't universal like L cancel and WD were. BUt i think little in this game is.

If you have any questions let me know.


PS- I freaking hate they took out CC Downsmash. Someone make it work >_<

 

[rev]

I have a quick question as well: If I have tap-jump set to "off" (meaning that I couldn't use up to jump) can I still use up as I hit the ground or will I be forced to use x/y?

I'm not positive on that questions but I hope this helps.

My friend uses shorthop y, then fast fall, then aireal, than the ctrl stick to do his next jump.

I however use the y button the whole time, it is your choice.

If you are good with the control stick and you twirl it right though, you can get some ground sliding after the landing. But don't ask me for help on that yet haha, I havn't got it down.

 

[rev]

Oh ok, I get what's going on here. He's not talking about aerials at all, just landing lag from a jump.

Well, there is no extra landing lag from a jump if you fastfall. You're imagining it, or mistaking something else (buffered crouch?) for lag. Pressing up doesn't do anything, except maybe buffer a jump instead of a crouch.

Someone should link me this buffered crouch thing. that sounds something like it.

But no it's not just for regular jumps without aireals, I don't think those lag? I could be wrong.

It's for aireals. But again, not all of them work. Pits D-air for example, I have found no way at all to cancel the lag if the animation doesn't finish before you land.

This tech works for the moves it does though, even if you havn't finished the move before you land.

 

[usea]

I've been trying to reproduce what you're describing, and I honestly don't think it exists. I think you're getting confused about what's happening or something.

First of all, you say to short hop, then fastfall, then do your aerial. Your aerial isn't going to have much time to come out if you're starting it after the peak of a shorthop. Pit's nair can only (BARELY) get 1 hit off if you do it after a FFed SH. Even if it did work, it wouldn't be very effective.

Secondly, you said:

Doing SH Pit's N air without fast falling has no lag. You can do it over and over.
But if you fast fall his N-Air, I'm not sure what you would call it but when he hits the ground he crouches a bit and lags. No option to do anything.

This shows a misunderstanding of what's happening. If you land during certain frames of the move, you will have landing lag. It doesn't matter if you're coming from a fastfall or not, or how high your jump was. The only thing that matters is during what frames of the nair you landed on the ground.
-From the ground, a short hopped nair with pit will land after those frames, so you won't have any lag.
-From the ground, a short hopped, fastfalled nair with pit will land during those frames, so you will have landing lag.
Fastfalling isn't causing the lag, landing during the middle of the move is causing it. Try a short hop, but don't start the move until the peak of your jump; you'll get that same "knee bend" lag even though you didn't fastfall.

Finally, I don't know what you're seeing on your screen, but you cannot cancel your aerial landing lag with a jump. It doesn't matter if you do it from any combination of short hop or fastfall. It's not happening.

 

[rev]

I think there are different levels of fast falling. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it as well yet. Let me try it again tonight and see what I find out.

But I can say, that Pits Nair not fast falled has no lag, correct landing frame ok, no lag.

But you can make him do it faster, because it does fast fall. And there still, is No lag.

And I'm not sure it's about canceling the lag as much as it is avoiding it entirely.

Take what you want from it.

 

[pockyD]

sounds gamebreaking if true

 

[BigRick]

very interesting

 

[Gerbil]

Can you send me a replay video of you doing this? I am trying, but I just can't get any of it to work with any character. Thanks...


(you'll have to give me your BC too for the replay)

BC: 4167-4160-0707

 

[Senko Zero]

A visual guide would definately help. I see how's it done, but the timing must either be dumb or it doesn't exist. I've been trying with Ike's bair and I'm not getting a thing.

 

[Mama]

With the characters I use I fast fall and it doesn't affect their moves. In fact when you fast fall Dedede's n-air it reduces the lag and he bounces off the ground so you can do it again faster. Generalizing that fast falling is worse in this game is stupid if you haven't even tested it with every single character. So you should probably edit that first post so you don't confuse the idiots on these boards...

 

[zapdose]

Someone should make a comparison video.

 

[2syk]

ya a video would be nice. i've been trying for a good while now. and while it does seam feasable, it just doesn't seem to come out

 

[Seison]

Alright. I think some things need to be cleared up.

I was very hopeful for this "discovery" when i first read it, and when i tested it with Pit, i actually got it to "work" however, I think we've been fooling ourselves, and heres why.

What we're seeing, is a mix between IASA frames and the buffering system. What's happening is that some of the characters (maybe all of them i dunno) aerials have IASA frames at the end, and which allows another move (like a smash) to interrupt the lag.

Now first of all, the lag that we are seeing isn't due to fast falling. And I'm going to use pit for these examples. Even if you do a full jump, don't fast fall, but nair right before you hit the ground, Pit will go into his laggy landing animation, and then stand up again. This is due to the mechanic wherein you experience less lag if you complete the aerial before you hit the ground. But Like I said, if you DON'T finish the aerial, then Pit does his laggy landing animation.

Now, the source of the lag behind us, let's continue. Say that there are 15 frames of lag in his laggy landing animation, and the buffer system can pick up an inputted command at frame 5, and execute the action at frame 10 due to the last 5 frames being IASA frames. that's a savings of 5 frames of lag if you buffer a command. What we're seeing with Pit, is when you Nair into the laggy land, and immediately c-stick a smash, nothing happens. But when you go into the laggy land, quickly press UP/X/Y and THEN c-stick a smash, it interrupts the lag and executes the smash. IT LOOKS LIKE AN L-CANCEL, but here is what is actually happening:

You jump with Pit, do his Nair just above the ground (or fast fall one into the ground) and get the laggy land. normally, when you immediately smash the c-stick, you do it within the first 5 frames of the landing, and so it's not entered into the buffer memory, and therefore not executed. HOWEVER, with this "L-Cancel" all that's happening is you are inputting the UP/X/Y command within the first 5 frames, and then when you smash the c-stick, you are at frame 5 or 6, or 8 or w/e, and so as soon as the IASA frames become available, your smash is being executed. here's the proof: this "l-cancel" technique will "work" with any button. If you Nair with Pit into the laggy land, and smash the c-stick twice, you will interrupt the laggy landing with a smash. I'm sorry to say it even works with B--it's all because you aren't canceling the lag with the rapid UP/X/Y, but rather by inputting your smash (or w/e other command) within the range of the buffer capture. You can even cancel the IASA frames with a grab.

Sorry if this seems complicated, but it IS what is actually happening.

disclaimer: the "15 frame" example is hypothetical. it could also be 6 frames of lag total, buffer recognition at frame 3, execution at frame 4, canceling the last 2 frames of lag (IASA frames)

 

[usea]

If you found the previous post confusing, I'll summarize it:

You can't cancel or reduce aerial landing lag by jumping. Seison is saying you're hitting up which has no effect, then buffering a smash. The reason it works when you hit up, according to Seison, is because after hitting jump, you're inputting your smash a little later, within the buffer window.

 

[pockyD]

so are you saying there are IASA frames in landing lag?

that in and of itself already seems weird, but would also be useful to know anyway

 

[4 Aces]

So I guess what usea and seison are saying is that the jump is merely wasting time, but just enough time, so that the next move that you want to use are entered at the right time. I guess in a way like a form of mental spacing? Is this what you mean?

Someone needs to hack into the debug menu (if there's one in this game). Just a thought.

 

[rev]

This video pretty much covers it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyhnF4jZa_Y

Except he only does aireals out of it, you do have other options. And some of his look to be short hops kept in the air to long to be fast falled, but you can do that as well.