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Falco's Presence in Brawl-A Double Standard?

hyrdalisk23

Smash Rookie
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Jul 7, 2007
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18
This thread's intention is a for a location to formally inquire as to why so many members believe that Falco shouldn't be removed, these same members often state that every other clone should be removed except Falco. Why is this? Falco is just another clone, he plays somewhat different than Fox, but there is that distinction with all clones. For the record I'd have no opposition to Falco remaining if he received the same treatment that Ganondorf is likely to receive(new moveset). So flame me sky high if necessary, but why is Falco so different from the other clones to so many members?
 

Xaron Fisk

Smash Journeyman
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Good question. I'd say it's because he has a cool jacket, lasers, and his last name is Lombardi.
 

Bassoonist

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Most people want Falco and Ganondorf to return with new movesets.

The other clones are different in that most of them are just filler, and unlike Ganondorf and Falco they aren't completely different characters then the one they're cloning with the exception of Roy.
 

Odlanier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
197
'Cause all the other clones suck.
Dr. Mario and the annoying sounds his pills make
Young Link and his high-pitched voice
Roy and his ability to own without ever taking your hand off the c-stick
Pichu and the fact that he hurts himself
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
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My personal reasons:

I'm generally against the inclusion of "doubles" (note: this is not a synonym for "clones"), which is why I don't like that Doctor Mario and Young Link were in Melee. Though, Doc is the one I have the biggest problem with. Falco is saved from this in the sense the he is his own person (or avian, rather).

I think Pichu is adorable, and would not mind if it returned to Brawl, but it's kind of a slap in the face to have another Pikachu in the game, purely because there is such a wide assortment of pokemon to choose from. Pichu is technically it's own character, but it's inclusion does a poor job of showing the diversity in the pokemon universe. Falco has no such issue to overcome.

Roy? Well, honestly, I don't care about any of the FE characters—never played their games. Marth and Roy can both get the boot for all I care. But I think Marth has plenty of reason to stay purely because of his status in his series (first Lord or whatever). Roy, as far as I can tell, holds no specific importance, doesn't have currency as Ike does, and doesn't appear to be all that popular. Falco is popular and a main character in the overall SF series.

Ganondorf's good. I'd like to see him back.
 

OnyxVulpine

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Jul 12, 2007
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I also want Falco and Ganondorf back as none clones or.. doubles?

Though I would rather have Krystal than Falco.. even if she replaces him. But this is from the viewpoint of seeing him as a clone since we can't see what hes capable of if he was put into Brawl.

-Onyx
 

DarkKry4

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
517
This thread's intention is a for a location to formally inquire as to why so many members believe that Falco shouldn't be removed, these same members often state that every other clone should be removed except Falco. Why is this? Falco is just another clone, he plays somewhat different than Fox, but there is that distinction with all clones. For the record I'd have no opposition to Falco remaining if he received the same treatment that Ganondorf is likely to receive(new moveset). So flame me sky high if necessary, but why is Falco so different from the other clones to so many members?
Is it a double standard? You god **** right it is. I heard all this "remove all the clones cause they are so unoriginal!!! but keep falco and gannondorf". Anyone that was a clone in melee could very return with a new moveset. Though i wouldnt say that all the clones would return but if they were they probably recieve a new moveset because no one wants clones in Brawl, not just Falco and Gannondorf.
 

Hong

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Assuming Krystal is in (A very original character when wielding the staff), for Falco to be in there is very little chance that we'll get Wolf O'Donnell. Personally, I rather see Fox's actual rival and another villian then a third Star Fox team member. I really doubt we'd see four space animals, considering the similarities between Fox, Falco and Wolf. You can make completely different movesets for two of them easily yet only three if you want to be a bit ridiculous. (Such as making Falco a flier.) I say Fox and Wolf/Krystal is fine.
 

Viroxor

Smash Ace
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Falco has more originality potential than Dr. Mario.

Dr. Mario is literally Mario in a doctor's outfit. That's it. While Falco comes from an entirely different background than Fox. I always saw him having more of a punching based moveset than the one we got off of Fox.

I do still like the idea of having most of his moveset based in the air, with the majority of his ground moves being designed to knock enemies into the air. Since he's a bird, it makes sense.

But more importantly, Falco is an actual popular character, like Ganondorf. Sure, Roy has a few fans, but to be honest, he has little to no chance of returning, especially since there's presumably only one FE spot left open, and Marth and the Black Knight are the two major competitors for that spot.

I love Falco, he's always been my favorite, so keep that small bias in mind. These are my opinions, however, to which I shall stick.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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I think only Dr. Mario, Pichu and Young Link should get the ax, they are the same thing as their counterparts, as for Falco, he will have a unique moveset this time around since clones aren't returning.
It hasn't been confirmed that clones aren't returning. People are just assuming that since Sakurai said not all the characters from Melee will return. So Falco could be back, and he could still be a clone. Or he may get a new moveset. Or he may get axed entirely. Nooo one knooooooows. *cue spooky music*
 

Caleb Wolfbrand

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to me, Falco and Fox are like Ken and Ryu... Wolf would be Akuma I guess. But... I know I'm pretty alone in that thought, hahaha...

I think Falco has plenty of potential to be Luigified (and Ganon, and even YL. Not Pichu and Doc... Roy seems to be replaced by Ike) If Falco comes back without his red costume, the red jacket, I won't bother with him much, anyway.
 

Kunitsuna

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
257
It´s not a double standard. When you look at the characters and not their status as clones, you notice a few things.

- Dr. Mario is Mario with a lab coat and his game is unimportant and unpopular. Furthermore, he has little choices for a full-fledged moveset of his own.
- Young Link is Link when young. There´s little need to have a smaller and faster version of a character already in SSBB when there is a colorful cast of Legend of Zelda characters waiting to be looked at instead.
- Roy is unimportant to the Fire Emblem series as whole, his game sold poorly and it didn´t go outside of Japan. He doesn´t bring anything new or interesting to the game (male swordfighter wields fire) beyond red hair.
- Pichu is an insult to include in SSBB when Pikachu already exists. As of present there are 493 different species of Pokémon in existence, and while only a very small portion of them is eligible for SSBB, there are many other collectible critters that would bring something much more diverse and interesting to the fray than a nimbler, masochistic version of everyone´s favorite token rodent.

Falco is a good idea because, thanks to a new arsenal from Star Fox assault, could potentially have a totally new moveset. Furthermore he´s one of the best choices to represent the franchise in SSBB; while Krystal is an almost guaranteed newcomer, Wolf runs the risk of being a stronger and heavier version of Fox.
 

Dizzynecro

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Aug 1, 2007
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because falco is a main char from star fox second only to fox, i think they should change him around to make him luigish so not a clone but a similar char to fox.
 

skullkidd

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Jul 3, 2007
Messages
519
Yeah, they said it.

Falco, along with Ganondorf, aren't like other clones. They are actually their own very different character.

Young Link - They made a whole new character by adding a word to his name.
Pichu - Even better! They took out a syllable! :]]
Doctor Mario - Same deal as Young Link

I guess Roy is an exception, but still, Falco has more distinctions from Fox than Roy has from Marth.
 

_the_sandman_

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If Falco returns HE WILL BE DIFFERENT!

Why do I say this? Well, he was changed in the PAL version after all. Sakurai already was able to see how overpowered he was during the re-release of Melee.

Sakurai has more than enough time to make Falco completely different than Fox at this point. So the idea of clone characters or Luigi-fied characters shouldn't be an issue anymore.
 

Conker1

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Falco+Fighting Exclusively(meaning all his moves) with Rocket Launcher = Waaaaaay more original than Krystal with a Staff

Main reason is because Falco and Ganondorf are separate character.

Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu are just different versions of characters in the game.

Roy, on the other hand, was added to advertise his game, not a great way to get in =/
 

shadowmm151

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Falco should be in cause he's sweet...duh!

No but seriously the reason he should return is for plenty of reasons.

One: He's freakin sweet!
Two: He is easily tied with ganondorf as the most popular of the clones.
Three: Like ganondorf he plays an important role in his series and is quite popular.
Four: In the starfox series there is no one more popular than falco other than fox and on top of that out of your crewmates he is the only one around that makes you feel that you're not fighting alone.
Five: The guy is top tier for crying out loud and one of the most used characters in tournaments.
Six: Okay here's the long one: He and ganondorf are really the only clones that are truly different than their counterparts.
-Sure Doc's cape is a little different and he's slightly slower and slightly stronger. His pills have different trajectory, his f-air doesn't spike but instead knocks out and away (which if you watch the new trailers mario's f-air now does that). Other than that their the same.
-Pichu although he's a bit more different from pikachu than doc from mario(with moves being a little different), the fact that he hurts himself, is only SLIGHTLY faster than pikachu, is WAY weaker, and SO much lighter does not balance him from pikachu in the least.
-Roy is basically Marth with fire attacks. He is SLIGHTLY stronger, at least as far as damage goes, weaker in terms of knockback, his sword is more powerful at the hilt which sucks in comparison to marth's being the tip since you have to be closer, and he's quite slower than marth too. His counter is much shorter than marth's and so harder to hit with. It does return damage which is kinda cool but i think since marth's is longer and based off of knockback (somewhat) it's more useful. His airgame is also nowhere near marth's (plus marth's d-air can be used as a spike) and marth's repeated a attack that roy doesn't have is really useful. They made marth really good but when they made roy all they did was change marth around here and there, trying to keep it just as good, but ended up making roy which was just not as good.
-Young link is just a weaker and slightly faster version of link. I would argue for him if he wasn't almost exactly identical to link other than size, weight, strength, speed, fire arrows, a boomerang with more trajectory (less strength and distance) and an occasional d-air that spikes. I think link was fine the way he was. Making young link made players develop a style of playing with him that his moves were not originally intended for. Link is a power character...young link is a non-power player with moves that are for a power player.
-Now for someone I don't have to rip on. I honestly cannot find a single person alive who although they know ganondorf is captain falcon's clone, will say that he is just like captain falcon. Cause guess what? He's not! He's big, WAY WAY WAY slower, has horrible jumps, IS THE FREAKING KING OF STRENGTH and is as heavy as bowser. His moveset while it does somewhat remind you of the capt, is immediately noticable to be different. everything about this guy reeks of power. Hell, even his freakin jab is strong! It'd be nice if he was given more original moves but I really wouldn't care if he was kept as is.
-Now for the falco! A lot like fox and everyone who first picks him up says so. But after a few plays through people immediately develop a preference for one of the two. Why? Because they play way different. Falco's stunlazer vs. fox's rapid nonstunlazer, fox upsmash vs. falco fsmash, falco's d-air drill from hell, the difference in reflectors (the major thing), falco's longer reach, falco's higher jumps, fox's better recovery, fox's better speed, fox's up-b's flame's attacking, falco's over-b spike, falco using his reflector more for combo's as opposed to fox using it as a spike, and Fox kills upward better while falco kills outward better. Wow there's a lot of differences I named isn't there, and I know I missed a bunch too. But hey that's the same as what you did for other character's isn't it? Well Yes but the other character's were summed up much quicker and less complexly, while I have missed quite a few things about falco compared to fox. There a bunch of advanced techniques I missed too. The list I wrote outlining some of there differences just goes to show how many differences there are and why he is not like other clones.
Seven: The most important aspect is that in the hands of the player, you actually FEEL the difference of playing falco and ganondorf as opposed to the other clones. When I play the other clones I just employ the same techniques as their counterparts. (I just make sure to be more cautious with Pichu). With falco and ganondorf I play quite differently then I do with fox and captain falcon.

I guess you could say I like falco but I like him because he has earned me liking him because of the differences I noticed in him. I noticed these differences and then liked him not liked him so I imagined these differences to make him look good. I will honestly be disappointed if they don't put him in this upcoming game. Unlike the other clones (excluding ganondorf) he has a huge following that is rooting for him to be in brawl and would be upset if he wasn't.

Well only time will tell I suppose. Here are my opinions and you are free to argue them or play devil's advocate or whatever.
 

Jackal478

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Well. I wouldn't care...But Starfox is the reason I wanted to learn to read when i was young.

And falco was my favorite character.

So. He's like my Kid Idol

Edit: And yea. I don't care for his special moves. as long as they dont suck. I loved Falco for his NINJA MOVES. lol
 

Pluvia's other account

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Refering to Super Smash Master's picture:

I don't understand how a humaniod, falcon, wearing a space suit and holding a GIANT bazooka can look so urm.. gay..

Anyhoo, You can add my vote for Falco returning (With a new moveset)
 

GreenKirby

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People only want Falco to return because of his great moveset. Same reason for Sheik and the only reason people play as Marth
 

IllidR

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People only want Falco to return because of his great moveset. Same reason for Sheik and the only reason people play as Marth
Not really.. when i first got smash, as soon as i unlocked Marth i was like WOW! This guy is awesome! I've played as him ever since, before knowing of his great standing in the tier list. He just seemed like a great character, and a bamf at that.:laugh:
 

Viroxor

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The Viroxor Gods frown upon GreenKirby and Pluvia.

GreenKirby for believing I'm only a Falco fan because of his moveset. It was a plus, at best.

And Pluvia, well, I just disagree with. I thought Falco looked cool in that picture. If I thought he looked gay, he might not BE such a bamf.
 

GreenKirby

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Well I know he wouldn't be as popular if it wasn't for his moveset. If he was lower tier, more people would rather see him not return.

And I know that every Falco player doesn't play as him for said moveset, but a whole lot of them sure do.
 

freeman123

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This thread's intention is a for a location to formally inquire as to why so many members believe that Falco shouldn't be removed, these same members often state that every other clone should be removed except Falco. Why is this? Falco is just another clone, he plays somewhat different than Fox, but there is that distinction with all clones. For the record I'd have no opposition to Falco remaining if he received the same treatment that Ganondorf is likely to receive(new moveset). So flame me sky high if necessary, but why is Falco so different from the other clones to so many members?
It has nothing to do with his moves. People want Falco to return for the reason that he will return, because he's the most popular character in the Star Fox series. Play Star Fox 64 and you'll know why.

Falco has a lot of personality, and is an all around like-able character. Most of the other clones have no distinct personality. Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link are just alternate versions of the people they're cloned from. People don't want Roy removed because he's a clone, they want him removed because he was only in Melee in the first place to promote a game. That game is 5+ years old now, and Roy wasn't that popular anyway. Nobody that I know of wants Ganondorf removed.
 

Bowserlick

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There is a double standard. And the main reason is because Falco is the best clone in terms of tournament material. Remember a good portion of these forum members play in tournaments.

Pichu, Roy, and Young Link hold less winning potential than their cloned host.

Gannondorf, while lower on the tier list then his cloned host, is still a viable character. But most people realise that Sakurai will most likely give one of the most original Nintendo characters is own moveset. And because thise new game seems to concentrate on villains vs heros or at least suggests that theme, I believe Gannondorf will have all his own moves.

Dr. Mario is higher then Mario on the tier list, but the videos already show that Mario absorbed his strengths.

So Falco is left. 2nd place ont he tier list and a tournament staple. Alot of people that want him back do not want his moveset tampered with. But his moveset does not even fit his character. Falco would never copy Fox's style. He is a rogue. And a bird with a terrible recovery. Falco is suppose to be the best flier on the team. So true fans of Falco would want a moveset that represents the character, not a tournament winning moveset that does not fit him.

People just seem to want varieties on Fox's broken moveset and stats (good recovery, damage tools, shield, reflect, fast falling, speed, agility, roll, throw, ect.). But Sakurai seems to be going for balance and creativity in this game (Pokemon Trainer). So I think if Falco returns (which I do not think will happen) he will play much differently.
 

shadowmm151

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I'll get the mob!





No but seriously falco shouldn't be removed because he was clone...I mean if he was popular enough to get into melee and popular enough to be played in melee then it should be recognized that he's worth keeping for the fans. I'd rather some moves (like his reflector and d-air) remain but hell I trust Sakurai (man hasn't let us down yet has he?) and he can do with falco's moveset as he sees fit.
 

specialsauce

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falco can be fixed i mean they changed link quite a bit, they could surley update falcos moves and make him stand out more.I think falco will be in the game even if they add another star fox character like wolf or krystal
 

hyrdalisk23

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Jul 7, 2007
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Thanks for all the comments, the main reasons are now apparent to me. However, I did play Star Fox 64 and liked Slippy and Peppy more than Falco, but I was a rather young lad so frog>bird. I see a lot of members play him, but I'm not sure if this warrants his return, seeing as he never played as a bird, but more of a stronger fox, I now believe Wolf will replace Falco. However, I haven't played a Star Fox since the 64 so I'm unsure of Wolf's ability to have different specials than Fox, if anyone could enlighten me, I'd appreciate it. That Falco picture with the gun was disturbingly homosexual. Never played Star Fox Assault, but that is the only other potential source for Falco's moves if he is included(assuming Sakura is adamant on clones), so in closing, unless Falco birds up, I'd like to see Wolf replace him.
 
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