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Falcon Matchup

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
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CA
It seems that the general consensus on the Yoshi boards is to have matchup discussions that reflect the current Yoshi metagame. As a result I figured it's best to have a separate topic for each matchup so we can keep things organized. We can maybe have a separate stickied topic linking to each of these in the near future so they don't get lost.

So, let's start with Falcon since that's a popular choice at the moment. I'm too tired to write anything up now but let's get some discussion going. You should address one or more of the following (with REASONS):

1. Stages/CPing
2. Positioning
3. Neutral game
4. Punish game
5. Combo starters/combos/finishers
6. Mixups

Feel free to talk about anything else regarding the MU that you feel is important. Remember that this is a discussion; if you want to voice your opinion about what someone else thinks about the MU, do so with reasoning. The Yoshi boards are very polite and often give good feedback; I had to mention this so newcomers and players from other boards are on the same page if they wish to participate in these discussions (they are certainly welcome!).

So without further ado, let the Falcon discussion begin!
 
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kofinater

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
148
6. Mixups : Shield Pressure

Falcon is pretty bad out off shield so if you can get him to shield you put your self in a very good position. What I like to is mixup djc nair, shuffle nair, uptilt, up angle ftilt, djc uair, and if they like to stay in shield a bunch after 2 djc nairs then hit them with the shield poke dmash. Dsmash being super punishable so don't use it too often. But basically Falcon can only beat djc nair on the back of his shield by stomping, and stomp can be stuffed by ftilt, uptilt, and rising nair. With ftilt and uptilt being combo starters.
 

Dinowulf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
482
Location
Selma, Alabama
I'm still learning a bit about falcon but i think the one of the best things you can do against him is to fight him close enough to where he can't use his Knee to connect.


. . . .

Excuse me for the poor excuse of a example (lol this is horrible)

but say the 2nd (from the left) is where you're standing as Yoshi against Falcon. It is the best spot to be however it's really risky especially with them trying to go for Grabs + Dair's.

when playing as Falcon they need space to fight against yoshi's. So i think short stages like Yoshi's story and Fountain of Dreams are two good counterpicks. I don't know how Dreamland or final would fare but i don't think those two are effective methods to fight falcon. also 9 times out of ten they can Falcon's will counterpick to Pokemon stadium or Final destination as it gives them multiple options.
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
Lightshield is great against falcon.
Would you mind elaborating on this?

I too agree that it is good against Falcon. Most Falcon players will just try to hit your shield, so if you're up close and lightshielding, you'll be put into a position where you can safely get out of your shield. However, you will likely be pushed to the ledge which is a disadvantageous position, but ECEs can help you get back on stage.
 
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Pabmyster

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Apr 6, 2014
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Pabmyster
1. Stages/CPing :yoshi:

For stage selection I wouldn't take Falcon to YS or DL.

YS he can take up a lot of space with his aerials, and often juggle you on platforms with upairs, and the walls and Randle (the cloud) really aid his recovery. I find the small blast zones help him more than they do you, as his knee kills at incredibly low %s and are risky to parry/easy to land. Also, his limited recovery is better on this level and he can almost always up-b back to stage and mix up with landing on the stage or going for ledge, and can really trick up your edge guarding, but that is just my experience. Don't recommend vs. Falcon unless you really like this stage or find you have some other advantage here.

DL gives Falcon a lot of room to move around, and as Falcon excels at tech chases and reads, it gives him lots of space to do the things he is good at. He can also cover the higher platforms with Uair pretty well, and escape your pressure due to the size of the stage coupled with the high platforms that he can waveland onto out of most of your moves' reach. He is also able to recover a lot easier with Falcon Kick due to his weight and the wide blast zones. All in all, I don't like this stage too much vs. Falcon.

FD could also be a good CP in this MU. Falcon has a lot of movement and free space for combos, but most of his punishes come off of tech chase situations. Yoshi has the potential for a better combo game with Uair strings, fair tech chases/jab resets, and d-throw combos on Falcon, and Yoshi also edgegaurds Falcon really hard on this stage, with the utilization of Eggs, dsmash, dtilt, and nair (or even dair) and the lack of platforms for Falcon to land on to try and mix you up. If you have a strong punish game, this can be a really good stage for you. The lack of platforms really restricts Yoshi's movement though, and it's hard to mix up your approaches on FD. I'd recommend mixing up your DJC height by using fullhops to DJ Bair/fair to come down onto him with, as well as lower approaches with Nair and Bair. Falcon also struggles with approaching safely and unpredictably somewhat, so it could potentially be highly in your favour here if you can stuff/Parry his approaches well and get high damage combos, and finish your edge guards often. Pick this stage based on how your opponent plays his punish game and how well you can counter him relative to that.

Battlefield is definitely the most neutral in this matchup. This is a good stage to feel out your opponent and determine if you should take them to any other stage (if you lose here), or determine what stage you should ban (if you win here). I'd recommend this stage as a starting pick or CP, as it can be good in general. You can reach through the platforms with a lot of your moves, which means Falcon won't feel safe being on a platform. You can really utilize the top platform for your waveland approaches, and lightshielding can be used as a (somewhat) safe defensive option or as a mixup into a shield drop uair to start a combo. Edge guarding Falcon with eggs when he is recovering from below you can be really useful, as often times you can get him caught under the stage if he is trying to reverse up-b grab the ledge. The lack of a wall means there is less room for error for Falcon to grab ledge, so if he miss-spaces his Up-b you can get him back off stage at a sharp angle using down smash, and it is often hard for him to recover from it. On the other hand, Falcon has a lot of platform control as well with his quick wavelands and his drop-through Uairs.

Pokemon Stadium is a stage I consider in most MUs as a CP. Yoshi's combo game here can be amazing, and the low platforms let you harass opponents with Uair if they get stuck in shield on them, and they allow nice movement mixups. Shielding on platforms can turn something generally bad vs. Falcon, into something beneficial. If you can turn shield dropping into an aerial like Nair/Uair/ waveland fair, it can start a tech chase or combo opportunity in your favour. Even if you're stuck on platform and must lightshield, it can get you out of a dangerous situation by baiting a strong move, sliding you to ledge to spam ECEs and get back safely. Yoshi can find kills off the top here with Uair and Usmash, and the transformations really benefit your ability to egg camp Falcon. For Falcon its the same situation here as on FD or DL, but he can't use his platform movement as well as he can on other stages, and often fears getting stuck on a platform. The good here outweigh the bad for Yoshi, in my eyes.

As for where to CP to, if they don't ban FoD, i'd definitely take them there. Most Falcons absolutely HATE this stage. The moving platforms really hinder Falcon's movement, and often cause him to miss-space aerials. The moving platforms also allow Yoshi's waveland approaches to differ all the time and removes predictability from them. The larger blastzones are also better for Yoshi I find. If they don't ban it (which I doubt they won't), and you're comfortable here, then go here.


Please let me know what you think of this and I will update it as you point things out to me. Let's get these threads thriving! :b:
 
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Nuttre

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
153
Location
Dundee
Would you mind elaborating on this?
I feel like, since there is no real way to punish falcon attacking your shield (if they are smart) it is one of the few ways to relieve yourself of some pressure, and it kills their momentum like crazy if you manage to find yourself on the edge. I also find that most falcons tend to walk forward towards where you ended up.
Of course, this all becomes negligible if you can parry falcon stomp (which not many can)
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
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Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
1. Stages/CPing :yoshi:

For stage selection I wouldn't take Falcon to YS or DL.

YS he can take up a lot of space with his aerials, and often juggle you on platforms with upairs, and the walls and Randle (the cloud) really aid his recovery. I find the small blast zones help him more than they do you, as his knee kills at incredibly low %s and are risky to parry/easy to land. Also, his limited recovery is better on this level and he can almost always up-b back to stage and mix up with landing on the stage or going for ledge, and can really trick up your edge guarding, but that is just my experience. Don't recommend vs. Falcon unless you really like this stage or find you have some other advantage here.

DL gives Falcon a lot of room to move around, and as Falcon excels at tech chases and reads, it gives him lots of space to do the things he is good at. He can also cover the higher platforms with Uair pretty well, and escape your pressure due to the size of the stage coupled with the high platforms that he can waveland onto out of most of your moves' reach. He is also able to recover a lot easier with Falcon Kick due to his weight and the wide blast zones. All in all, I don't like this stage too much vs. Falcon.

On FD Falcon has a lot of movement and free space for combos, and his combo game on Yoshi is pretty ridiculous, but if you have a strong combo game yourself, this can be a good stage for you. The lack of platforms really restricts Yoshi's movement as well, and it's hard to mix up your approaches on FD. I'd recommend mixing up your DJC height by using fullhops to DJ Bair/fair to come down onto him with, as well as lower approaches with Nair and Bair. Falcon also struggles with approaching safely and unpredictably somewhat, so its pretty 50/50, or even in your advantage here if you can stuff/Parry his approaches well and get high damage combos, and finish your edge guards often. Pick this stage based on how your opponent plays and how well you can combo.

Battlefield is definitely the most neutral in this matchup. This is a good stage to feel out your opponent and determine if you should take them to any other stage (if you lose here), or determine what stage you should ban (if you win here). I'd recommend this stage as a starting pick or CP, as it can be good in general. You can reach through the platforms with a lot of your moves, which means Falcon won't feel safe being on a platform. You can really utilize the top platform for your waveland approaches, and lightshielding can be used as a (somewhat) safe defensive option or as a mixup into a shield drop uair to start a combo. Edge guarding Falcon with eggs when he is recovering from below you can be really useful, as often times you can get him caught under the stage if he is trying to reverse up-b grab the ledge. The lack of a wall means there is less room for error for Falcon to grab ledge, so if he miss-spaces his Up-b you can get him back off stage at a sharp angle using down smash, and it is often hard for him to recover from it. On the other hand, Falcon has a lot of platform control as well with his quick wavelands and his drop-through Uairs.

Pokemon Stadium is a stage I consider in most MUs as a CP. Yoshi's combo game here can be amazing, and the low platforms let you harass opponents with Uair if they get stuck in shield on them, and they allow nice movement mixups. Shielding on platforms can turn something generally bad vs. Falcon, into something beneficial. If you can turn shield dropping into an aerial like Nair/Uair/ waveland fair, it can start a tech chase or combo opportunity in your favour. Even if you're stuck on platform and must lightshield, it can get you out of a dangerous situation by baiting a strong move, sliding you to ledge to spam ECEs and get back safely. Yoshi can find kills off the top here with Uair and Usmash, and the transformations really benefit your ability to egg camp Falcon. For Falcon its the same situation here as on FD or DL, but he can't use his platform movement as well as he can on other stages, and often fears getting stuck on a platform. The good here outweigh the bad for Yoshi, in my eyes.

As for where to CP to, if they don't ban FoD, i'd definitely take them there. Most Falcons absolutely HATE this stage. The moving platforms really hinder Falcon's movement, and often cause him to miss-space aerials. The moving platforms also allow Yoshi's waveland approaches to differ all the time and removes predictability from them. The larger blastzones are also better for Yoshi I find. If they don't ban it (which I doubt they won't), and you're comfortable here, then go here.


Please let me know what you think of this and I will update it as you point things out to me. Let's get these threads thriving! :b:
I agree with a good chunk of this. In the Ganondorf matchup, which is fairly similar, I avoid small or large stages and go for the medium sized ones (BF, FoD). I personally don't like PS in general because of the transformations, but it's not a bad stage overall for the matchup.

I think FD is actually a good CP because Yoshi's punish game against Falcon is arguably better than Falcon's punish game on Yoshi here. U-air combos help Yoshi a lot more than the techchases will help Falcon on average. The main thing Yoshi has here in his favor is recovery; Yoshi is far less likely to get gimped on FD than Falcon if he recovers smartly. However, if Falcon is offstage, he has nowhere to go, is in the helpless state, and doesn't have superarmor to absorb attacks. Yoshi also has a good projectile that can limit where Falcon goes, especially when done on the ledge.
 
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Pabmyster

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I agree with a good chunk of this. In the Ganondorf matchup, which is fairly similar, I avoid small or large stages and go for the medium sized ones (BF, FoD). I personally don't like PS in general because of the transformations, but it's not a bad stage overall for the matchup.

I think FD is actually a good CP because Yoshi's punish game against Falcon is arguably better than Falcon's punish game on Yoshi here. U-air combos help Yoshi a lot more than the techchases will help Falcon on average. The main thing Yoshi has here in his favor is recovery; Yoshi is far less likely to get gimped on FD than Falcon if he recovers smartly. However, if Falcon is offstage, he has nowhere to go, is in the helpless state, and doesn't have superarmor to absorb attacks. Yoshi also has a good projectile that can limit where Falcon goes, especially when done on the ledge.
good point. I'll add that to the OP!
 

Kimimaru

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Apr 19, 2012
Messages
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You don't necessarily have to change your post to include what I said; what I posted was simply based on my opinion and experience in the MU. Everyone has different views on different matchups. When users come to read this thread, I'm hoping they'll find a discussion with various viewpoints.
 

Pabmyster

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Pabmyster
You don't necessarily have to change your post to include what I said; what I posted was simply based on my opinion and experience in the MU. Everyone has different views on different matchups. When users come to read this thread, I'm hoping they'll find a discussion with various viewpoints.
I know, I only changed a bit of the FD part after watching some combos Yoshi has on fastfallers. Still says you should only go there if you have a good punish game :p I also kept my thoughts on PS there, just because I like that stage in general.

It probably would be better to keep the OP intact just to compare original thoughts and viewpoints like you said, though. Next time I guess lol.
 

MrHazuki

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
501
Location
Lund, Sweden
I have played this matchup more than any other (as Yoshi ofc ^^). Some general pointers from me.
- One thing that is important to understand is that crouch-parrying does not work on CF's short hop dair. Unless they come from full hop/platform, try to always light shield it. CF's dair is the only single-hit move in the game worthy of this treatment AFAIK.
- Make them respect your dair edgeguard. CF is extremely free when recovering from below. Remember to always start the dair ASAP after short hopping off stage so you can get up again. I believe this is more viable in PAL dair because of the lower hit lag.
- Don't be afraid to go near the edge when CF is on the ledge. CC and be ready to dsmash/parry-nair.
- Respect his uair when you recover. It beats Yoshi's armor early and can easily trade with down-B towards the edge.
- Bair-upsmash is a viable approach quite often. The upsmash's hitbox starts in the rear and gives a lot of shield stun if they shield.

EDIT: I'd also like to add my opinion when counterpicking. On a scale from 1 to 10 I'd give:
FoD - 10 - Even proper Falcons that know how to handle the platforms are at a disadvantage here.
YS - 8 - Close quarters combat again. Perfect for Yoshi. Most of the stage is made up by platforms which heavily benefits Yoshi.
BF - 6 - The most neutral stage, like you said. The edge is awesome for Yoshi (except that Haxdashing is close to impossible) and not that great for Falcon.
DL64 - 5 - I don't really have any issues with this stage. Both CF and Yoshi will live to high % almost every stock, which is great for player's with good recovery/DI. The main problem is that you have to chase CF a lot.
PS - 4 - The transformations are often terrible for Yoshi. I find that large gap between the platforms quite hard to work with but that just means you have to approach safer.
FD - 1 - No platforms, no shield drops. Yoshi's and CF's combo game are pretty much equally strong here, but the massive disadvantage in Yoshi's defensive game makes it the worst stage.
 
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Pabmyster

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I have played this matchup more than any other (as Yoshi ofc ^^). Some general pointers from me.
- One thing that is important to understand is that crouch-parrying does not work on CF's short hop dair. Unless they come from full hop/platform, try to always light shield it. CF's dair is the only single-hit move in the game worthy of this treatment AFAIK.
- Make them respect your dair edgeguard. CF is extremely free when recovering from below. Remember to always start the dair ASAP after short hopping off stage so you can get up again. I believe this is more viable in PAL dair because of the lower hit lag.
- Don't be afraid to go near the edge when CF is on the ledge. CC and be ready to dsmash/parry-nair.
- Respect his uair when you recover. It beats Yoshi's armor early and can easily trade with down-B towards the edge.
- Bair-upsmash is a viable approach quite often. The upsmash's hitbox starts in the rear and gives a lot of shield stun if they shield.

EDIT: I'd also like to add my opinion when counterpicking. On a scale from 1 to 10 I'd give:
FoD - 10 - Even proper Falcons that know how to handle the platforms are at a disadvantage here.
YS - 8 - Close quarters combat again. Perfect for Yoshi. Most of the stage is made up by platforms which heavily benefits Yoshi.
BF - 6 - The most neutral stage, like you said. The edge is awesome for Yoshi (except that Haxdashing is close to impossible) and not that great for Falcon.
DL64 - 5 - I don't really have any issues with this stage. Both CF and Yoshi will live to high % almost every stock, which is great for player's with good recovery/DI. The main problem is that you have to chase CF a lot.
PS - 4 - The transformations are often terrible for Yoshi. I find that large gap between the platforms quite hard to work with but that just means you have to approach safer.
FD - 1 - No platforms, no shield drops. Yoshi's and CF's combo game are pretty much equally strong here, but the massive disadvantage in Yoshi's defensive game makes it the worst stage.
Yeah, I've had a change of heart after playing Falcon more on Yoshi's Story. Its a pretty good stage for the MU, and most MUs at that. As for DL64 I also think the cons outweigh the pros for picking there. PS I prefer in general for some reason. Idk why, I just do. I usually beat Marths when they CP there as well, so Its probably just the pool of people I play are not good against Yoshi lol. I really like the Waveland approaches on PS, and its fun to space in neutral there, and get the opponent on the platforms to punish is cool. I still probably won't go FD that often, although it could be a good stage for Yoshi as mentioned. I've seen aMSa win handily on this map when the opponent CPs here. Maybe to give them false hope of winning when you're comfortable here, don't ban it and let them get comboed really hard :p

For what you said about the parrying SH dair, that is very good to know, cus I know I've tried that multiple times only to get wrecked. Also, I love bair to Usmash approach, but another good approach, against any character really, is late hit of bair into uair. THIS IS SOOOO GOOD. It's also really underused by the looks of it. Its a great combo starter and can even link into another uair which can in turn lead to more uairs and an egg if they DI out of reach. Another great one is bair into turnaround ftilt to hoprefully get a knockdown to a jab reset/ another fair/utilt.
Bair is amazing in general in this MU, and should constantly be spaced in the neutral game at varying heights/DJC. Fair is good as always for starting combos or getting jab reset into a uair combo. When you get them to a high % in a uair combo, a lot of the time you should finish the combo with a nair to get them off stage for an edge guard. Just my two cents though.
 
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MrHazuki

Smash Ace
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Mar 22, 2006
Messages
501
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Lund, Sweden
Played against CF quite a lot this weekend. Me and Kikki are very even. Whenever we get FD, I'm destroyed. Whenever we get FoD, he's destroyed.
I just hate how easy and rewarding it is for CF to go for grabs.
 
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