Fair to Fsmash

[FE_Hector]

So, somebody in my local FB group was wondering the following, and I want to get your opinions on it. Going by numbers, I don't think it would work, but let me know.

Serious question:
Okay, you're playing marth, right? Let's say to approach you shorthop in, and space yourself nicely and you throw out a Fair at the last possible second where the hitbox will connect, right? Very common marth ****.
Now, can someone explain to me, particularly against spaceys, why is it not good to do that then fast fall L-cancel your Fair and IMMEDIATELY throw out an F smash? Like literally as fast as possible. The hit stun from your Fair basically traps them into it, especially at low to mid percentages. At very low percentages heavy characters and fastfallers can sometimes shield it if they're ready, and I know there are exceptions to every rule and its not gonna be guaranteed anyway, but. Ken did it a lot back in the day when L canceling wasn't widely known like that, it's very effective especially with marth from what I've seen. This concept also works with other characters (FF L cancel an areal and throw out a smash attack next frame, like drill shine up smash with fox or something), and feel free to chime in about that as well, but with this question I'm specifically referring to marth and the Fair Fsmash set up.
Can someone please explain to me why this isn't good, how to get out of it consistently if there's a way, or if it is good, why it isn't seen more often? Is it possible to (smash) DI out of the way of the F smash?


My response: L-canceled LandLag on Marth's fair is 7 frames. Very first active (c-sticked) frame for Fsmash is 10 (goes through 13), but I don't think it will hit in this situation until frame 12. I really don't see the fair putting them in 19 frames of hitstun, especially given that you're given the last 20 frames before you land in order to tech. Just looking at those numbers, I highly doubt that it will connect against most Fox's, especially when we take Crouch Canceling, shields, Dash Dances, and ASDI/SDI/DSDI into account.

 

[Kadano]

Because your opponent will do one of these:

1. shield fair → shield fsmash → wavedash in → grab
2. spot dodge → free punish
3. dash dance outside of your fair / fsmash range → free punish

If you are already comboing your opponent and thus know that your late fair will connect, throwing out an immediate fsmash can be great. It just shouldn’t be a staple in neutral.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

So, somebody in my local FB group was wondering the following, and I want to get your opinions on it. Going by numbers, I don't think it would work, but let me know.

Serious question:
Okay, you're playing marth, right? Let's say to approach you shorthop in, and space yourself nicely and you throw out a Fair at the last possible second where the hitbox will connect, right? Very common marth ****.
Now, can someone explain to me, particularly against spaceys, why is it not good to do that then fast fall L-cancel your Fair and IMMEDIATELY throw out an F smash? Like literally as fast as possible. The hit stun from your Fair basically traps them into it, especially at low to mid percentages. At very low percentages heavy characters and fastfallers can sometimes shield it if they're ready, and I know there are exceptions to every rule and its not gonna be guaranteed anyway, but. Ken did it a lot back in the day when L canceling wasn't widely known like that, it's very effective especially with marth from what I've seen. This concept also works with other characters (FF L cancel an areal and throw out a smash attack next frame, like drill shine up smash with fox or something), and feel free to chime in about that as well, but with this question I'm specifically referring to marth and the Fair Fsmash set up.
Can someone please explain to me why this isn't good, how to get out of it consistently if there's a way, or if it is good, why it isn't seen more often? Is it possible to (smash) DI out of the way of the F smash?


My response: L-canceled LandLag on Marth's fair is 7 frames. Very first active (c-sticked) frame for Fsmash is 10 (goes through 13), but I don't think it will hit in this situation until frame 12. I really don't see the fair putting them in 19 frames of hitstun, especially given that you're given the last 20 frames before you land in order to tech. Just looking at those numbers, I highly doubt that it will connect against most Fox's, especially when we take Crouch Canceling, shields, Dash Dances, and ASDI/SDI/DSDI into account.

It can work, like most things, but isn't the greatest thing to do, if you do get them, with the fair, I'm sure you can follow up better (grab).

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Kadano What about if the fair actually connected? I believe that was more the situation he was talking about.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Kadano What about if the fair actually connected? I believe that was more the situation he was talking about.

I believe it's actually pretty well established and often used DI mix up: the opponent getting hit by fair might expect you to go for ken combo or something similar, in which case he'll often di the fsmash horribly.

 

[FE_Hector]

I believe it's actually pretty well established and often used DI mix up: the opponent getting hit by fair might expect you to go for ken combo or something similar, in which case he'll often di the fsmash horribly.

Not from 0-30% though

 

[FROST :)]

I use this very often as a mix-up. In fact, I use this more than often in the Ice climber matchup, its the perfect way to get them to split. You can also mix it up by doing Fair into Autocancel Nair in place or Fair into grab if your opponent keeps on shielding (Expecting you to Fsmash).