Fair and Nair in neutral

[firecheetah]

I've been watching a lot of competitive Greninja videos (especially aMSa) and I noticed that a lot of high level Greninja players use Fair to space. I find this to be very difficult because of how late the hitbox comes out. Does anyone have any tips to make this easier? Should I not fast fall, and just input the Fair a little later?

Also, pretty much everyone says that the SHFF Nair is one of his best approach options. I don't see this done that much, though, at least in the videos I'm watching. I mostly see Nair tossed in various strings. Every time I use SHFF Nair to approach I can't seem to ever hit or I get in late enough that they have time to shield. Any tips for that, as well?

Thanks!

 

[Heropon_Riki]

I've been watching a lot of competitive Greninja videos (especially aMSa) and I noticed that a lot of high level Greninja players use Fair to space. I find this to be very difficult because of how late the hitbox comes out. Does anyone have any tips to make this easier? Should I not fast fall, and just input the Fair a little later?

Also, pretty much everyone says that the SHFF Nair is one of his best approach options. I don't see this done that much, though, at least in the videos I'm watching. I mostly see Nair tossed in various strings. Every time I use SHFF Nair to approach I can't seem to ever hit or I get in late enough that they have time to shield. Any tips for that, as well?

Thanks!

For fair, try using the c stick to have the fair come out, while also retreating a little with the control stick to space. This will make it easier to pull off, while also allowing for more spacing. For nair, try jumping over them and using nair. If it hits them, you can get the jab followup, and if it doesn't they can't sheild grab you because you jumped behind them.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I fast fall and use c stick to space fair, and I usually fade back, so short hop fast fall and c stick almost all at once, just practice it a lot in training mode. Short hop fast fall nair is a great approach. At low percents you can do:
SHFF Nair -> down tilt -> up throw -> up air

Just don't over use this approach or be predictable with it. If people are shield grabbing it a lot, mix things up with a tomahawk

A tomahawk is an empty hop (short hop without doing anything) and then you dash grab, it makes them think you'll approach with an ariel so they shield, which gets a free grab.

 

[firecheetah]

Yeah I fast fall and use c stick to space fair, and I usually fade back, so short hop fast fall and c stick almost all at once, just practice it a lot in training mode

For fair, try using the c stick to have the fair come out, while also retreating a little with the control stick to space.

awesome! believe it or not i never even thought to do this. im always so busy concentrating on actually landing it that i never thought to back up at the same time. sounds like more thumb work than my clumsy ass is capable of, though. would it be smart to make L trigger my jump? a lot of people say that this helps pull off trickier aerials. ive experimented with it but its so jarring a difference that i always switch back to X and Y. if itll fundamentally improve my frog game though then ill force myself to get used to it

A tomahawk is an empty hop (short hop without doing anything) and then you dash grab, it makes them think you'll approach with an ariel so they shield, which gets a free grab.

!!! this is... man is there any kind of glossary a guy can look at that has a list of stuff like this? cause this is so helpful and i know im missing all kind of general techniques

 

[David Galanos]

I think the "Mysterious Arsenal" thread for Greninja techniques will be helpful. Check the original post on the first page there, and read through some of the discussion to see if there's some stuff you don't know.

And yeah it's important to keep in mind that you are spacing the fair, not simply doing a short hop fast fall fair. By this I mean you want to make sure you are doing this without getting punished for it, and you are putting up a wall almost that can stop their approaches or help you retreat safer. And spacing, is putting the move to where you can't get punished for it, it can be defined as hitting with the tip of the move, kind of like marth's tippers.

So, in this case, you want to hit them with the tip of his water sword, this way they can't punish you if they shield. Say if you do it and they shield it and the sword is halfway against they're shield, you will most likely get shield grabbed or punished some other way, but if you hit their shield with the end of the water sword, they cannot punish you, because you will be able to jump away, spot dodge, shield, jab, or do any other option to not let them hit you after you space the fair.

I feel like a lot of people think spacing is simply just throwing out an ariel to try to put an obstacle out there for your opponent or hope they run into it. That can be part of it, but the whole idea of spacing is putting the move where you are safe afterwards too.

You can also space back airs, the same way, it's a bit easier to do. Spaced fairs are better and more rewarding but spacing back airs is an option

(Keep in mind there are match ups where spacing fair isn't a good idea like against fox or sonic, through experience you will learn that there are some characters you don't want to do certain things against)

 

[The pig-keeper]

I definitely find the nair more attractive due to its large hitbox that prevent your opponent from tricking you. it is also a great way to 'harass' him, if I may say so, since it can really give you enough space to approach if combined with a 'mastered' fast fall.

Yet, I do believe that fair is highly recommended against enormous hurtbox such as zard, DDD, Ganon and stuff, since the delay between the input and the attack is somehow absorbed by the size of heavy characters.

Therefore I kind of think it that way :

• Light and medium - nair (especially against very fast characters such as sonic or fox who would try to approach from above)
• Heavy - fair (playing with the hurtbox)

Of course this is an outrageous shortcut but it's enough to understand the main mecanics.

 

[bc1910]

It's better not to fastfall when you use Fair because you want to get as far away from your opponent as you can to make the move safe on shield. It's better to short hop, wait, then input the Fair with the C-stick and start drifting backwards. When you land you'll get a good slide backwards during landing lag to increase the attack's safety. You can hold backwards whenever you want, the earlier you do it the safer the Fair will be.

Nair is a good approach option if they're not too shield happy, but it's not hard to get people to be afraid of shielding thanks to Greninja's excellent dash grab.