Exploring Smash 4's Competitive Opportunities?

[erico9001]

The Dream

When Smash 4 was coming out 2½ years ago, the thing that excited me the most, aside from Shulk, was how much opportunity the developers had given the competitive community in terms of ways to play the game. This game gives us more freedom over the game than any other Smash game - aside from perhaps Project M.

-Special moves customizable
-Fighter stats customizable
-Ability to very freely create stages
(And an already quite expansive stage list)

I was excited to explore. There were so many ways this game could be played competitively. Between making our own stages, designing our own characters, and being able to alter rulesets, there are so many ways the game could be played - some probably even more fun while just as competitive compared to the way we play it now. There are probably ways we could be playing the game that are more fun while just as competitive as the way we are playing it now.

The Reality

It's been pretty disappointing how things have turned out so far, and any of my efforts to try to get something going have failed. I focused on custom moves. My first effort was to convince Anther to add a custom moves option on Anther's Ladder. He actually agreed at one point, but after EVO 2015 he turned against it. Much later, I opened up a discord server, which got officially recognized and included on Smashcords. I put in massive amounts of effort to recruit for it, and well, it was pretty dead. We held a couple tournaments, but the turnout was only between 10 and 20 if I recall correctly. We also attempted making our own ladder system using a website to make generic ladders. That didn't work out very well either.

I don't know what's happened... Many people used to seem for exploring Smash 4 for better ways of playing it, but not anymore. Is it apathy? Did they give in? Did they just leave Smash Bros, and are just no longer around anymore (like amazing ampharos, the leader of the custom moveset project)?

How to Make The Dream The Reality

Anyways...

• What can we do?!
  
• How can we get any sort of exploration of this game going, even on a small scale?
  
• Given the opportunity, what would you like to explore?
  
• What mediums do you think would be best for exploring these ways of playing Smash 4?

I have ideas, like creating groups on smashboards and more stuff with discord servers... but I want to see what others think.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I get what you're saying, but there are definite, very big reasons why this has been abandoned or unexplored.

1. Custom moves are difficult to unlock. In order to allow any kind of move customization, extra effort has to be applied to each and every setup. In most cases, it's not worth the TOs' time to make sure every setup has the correct moves unlocked.
2. In addition to unlocking the moves, all available custom movesets must be saved for each setup, so players know what's allowed and matches can progress without each player needing to create their own custom set. This in turn adds more work for the TOs, which, again, might not be worth the trouble.
3. If you want to allow stat boosts/equipment too, that adds another layer of complexity, which again points back to 1 & 2 above. In fact, equipment use would be even harder to moderate, because each piece of equipment has unique + and - stat changes.
4. With customs available, the game is often more difficult to understand. The game already has 55 unique characters (excluding Miis) and even with some of the characters being near-carbon copies of each other, the diversity can be overwhelming, both to players and to spectators. With the base game, the diversity is somewhat in moderation, but if you throw customs into the mix, you don't just add to the diversity; you multiply it.
5. Custom stages might in some ways be easier to deal with, as they don't require grinding to obtain, nor do they multiply the content but simply add to it. However, they do present their own challenges. First, there is the issue of obtaining. In order for every setup to obtain the custom stages, there must either be an arbitrary Nintendo Network account that can be friended to access the stages online (probably preferred) or specific, detailed instructions on how to recreate the stage on each setup. With the first method, I'm not sure if there's a way to have a Nintendo Network account automatically accept friend requests, but even if there is, there would have to be someone moderating the friend list to ensure that everyone is able to get their stages without running into issues. With the second method, errors (intentional or accidental) would likely be frequent and could cause problems.
6. Custom stages could be tampered with. Even if there were a source dedicated to providing custom tournament stages, what would stop any setup owner from going into their stage builder and modifying (or near-replicating with slight differences) one of the stages before a tournament? If the differences were slight enough, the players might even fail to notice the difference, thus potentially changing the outcome of the game (along the lines of 0.9 at GENESIS 4).
7. With so many more moving parts than vanilla Smash 4, the rulesets have to be far more specific. Which custom moves and equipment are allowed for each character? Which stages are allowed and how do you obtain them? This can make the rulesets harder to create and enforce for the TOs, as well as harder to follow for the players.
8. The players and the TOs have mostly given up on these things post-EVO 2015, and the meta is fairly stable without them (not to mention many opted to use vanilla even while customs were legal). The meta would be shaken hard if customs were reintroduced, possibly nearly resetting the progress of the community to 0 (if people actually opted to use customs).
9. Not only would the meta be shaken by such changes, so would the balance of the game. Some characters have far more useful customs than others, and DLC characters don't have them at all. This also ties back to point 7, because you're now putting the balance of the game in the hands of the TOs, rather than the developers.

I'm sure there are probably even more problems or issues this task could face, but these are just a few. There may be potential to such a concept, but it would be harder on the players and especially the TOs. Even if customs did pick up speed again, there would likely be a significant amount of opposition. If such opposition would not outright destroy the movement or make it a niche, the community would likely end up being divided over the subject, which would be very detrimental to the growth of the community and to Smash 4 as an e-sport.

(Sorry if tl;dr or possible ranting (?) but there are a number of valid points and arguments against customs, and that's my whole point.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

You're one of my people, those who like exploring their game, all its modes, playing everything we possibly can and unlocking it 100% and discovering all the boundaries it offers.
I like playing my full game.

But let's understand this: most people are not like that.
The number of people who haven't unlocked Pac-land because they've never even played Smash Tour is higher than you'd expect. They never play 1-player modes, they never play FFAs or pick more than the legal stages, they don't even turn items on and know how to grab them.
They don't even pick every character a couple times to get the feel of how they move. (that's why they hate Sonic and Bayo: they do not understand them [And for that matter, they rarely pick Lylat, leading to the same issue]).

A huge majority of the community wants their game to be as simple as possible, and as much as I'd love to encourage people to play and understand the game more deeply, they'd refuse, call it a "waste of time" and stick to their simple gameplay.

I for one would love more legal stages and Customs to be played (or even some more possibilities), but the community does not and it's an effort investment I don't know if I am willing to make since its odds for being successful are very low.

 

[erico9001]

I get what you're saying, but there are definite, very big reasons why this has been abandoned or unexplored.

1. Custom moves are difficult to unlock. In order to allow any kind of move customization, extra effort has to be applied to each and every setup. In most cases, it's not worth the TOs' time to make sure every setup has the correct moves unlocked.
2. In addition to unlocking the moves, all available custom movesets must be saved for each setup, so players know what's allowed and matches can progress without each player needing to create their own custom set. This in turn adds more work for the TOs, which, again, might not be worth the trouble.
3. If you want to allow stat boosts/equipment too, that adds another layer of complexity, which again points back to 1 & 2 above. In fact, equipment use would be even harder to moderate, because each piece of equipment has unique + and - stat changes.
4. With customs available, the game is often more difficult to understand. The game already has 55 unique characters (excluding Miis) and even with some of the characters being near-carbon copies of each other, the diversity can be overwhelming, both to players and to spectators. With the base game, the diversity is somewhat in moderation, but if you throw customs into the mix, you don't just add to the diversity; you multiply it.
5. Custom stages might in some ways be easier to deal with, as they don't require grinding to obtain, nor do they multiply the content but simply add to it. However, they do present their own challenges. First, there is the issue of obtaining. In order for every setup to obtain the custom stages, there must either be an arbitrary Nintendo Network account that can be friended to access the stages online (probably preferred) or specific, detailed instructions on how to recreate the stage on each setup. With the first method, I'm not sure if there's a way to have a Nintendo Network account automatically accept friend requests, but even if there is, there would have to be someone moderating the friend list to ensure that everyone is able to get their stages without running into issues. With the second method, errors (intentional or accidental) would likely be frequent and could cause problems.
6. Custom stages could be tampered with. Even if there were a source dedicated to providing custom tournament stages, what would stop any setup owner from going into their stage builder and modifying (or near-replicating with slight differences) one of the stages before a tournament? If the differences were slight enough, the players might even fail to notice the difference, thus potentially changing the outcome of the game (along the lines of 0.9 at GENESIS 4).
7. With so many more moving parts than vanilla Smash 4, the rulesets have to be far more specific. Which custom moves and equipment are allowed for each character? Which stages are allowed and how do you obtain them? This can make the rulesets harder to create and enforce for the TOs, as well as harder to follow for the players.
8. The players and the TOs have mostly given up on these things post-EVO 2015, and the meta is fairly stable without them (not to mention many opted to use vanilla even while customs were legal). The meta would be shaken hard if customs were reintroduced, possibly nearly resetting the progress of the community to 0 (if people actually opted to use customs).
9. Not only would the meta be shaken by such changes, so would the balance of the game. Some characters have far more useful customs than others, and DLC characters don't have them at all. This also ties back to point 7, because you're now putting the balance of the game in the hands of the TOs, rather than the developers.

I'm sure there are probably even more problems or issues this task could face, but these are just a few. There may be potential to such a concept, but it would be harder on the players and especially the TOs. Even if customs did pick up speed again, there would likely be a significant amount of opposition. If such opposition would not outright destroy the movement or make it a niche, the community would likely end up being divided over the subject, which would be very detrimental to the growth of the community and to Smash 4 as an e-sport.

(Sorry if tl;dr or possible ranting (?) but there are a number of valid points and arguments against customs, and that's my whole point.)

Thanks for the post! I'd like to comment on each of your points.

1. Extra effort does need to be placed, but transferring from the 3ds to the Wii U really doesn't take very long. The custom moveset project handled this issue just fine, and EVO 2015 ran swimmingly because of it.
2. Again, custom moveset project
3. Equipment is pretty much just an idea at this point. But it would be possible to create a balanced metagame around equipment. Or even, to allow a balanced amount of equipment that can be added to a character - with certain abilities banned. I think it would be pretty fun to have such a high level of customization - trying out different things to bring into a (balanced) metagame.
4. It would be harder to have a full grasp of everything in the game, yes. I think people could do it though, especially when many custom moves are not viable. I come fro m a competitive Pokémon background, and yeah, knowing all the potential different moves and sets all of these different pokemon can be having does take some time. But it's rewarding in the end, because the game is a lot more fun because of it.
5. Not sure what you're getting at with this. All you have to do is have the person followed on miiverse who made the stage, boot up miiverse, go to their post with the stage, and hit download.
   
6. Completely False - this I'm debunking. When you receive a stage from the internet, there is no way to edit it, and it's made very clear who made the stage. You can only test the stage or view the profile of the creator.
   
7. There's no way to know if we'd have to ban any custom specials. Certainly nothing has shown up yet that's 'broken' as they like to say. Custom stage is easy to put in the rules - just list it on the stages section, and include it in striking/counterpicking.
8. I'm not exactly sure how our meta is stable right now, but it would make it less so regardless. I do not mind the idea of this. Resetting it to 0 is a big exaggeration. Obviously that's not true, considering you yourself say people may not even use them (because they wouldn't have to).
   
9. If you're talking about balance with custom special moves, you should remember that the developers made them and balanced them. By refusing to allow them to be used, we are already doing as you say - holding the game's balance in our own hands. Many people think, or rather thought when it was actually being discussed, that custom moves would birng a more balanced game. That's something people desire. Also, as demonstrated with the recommended ruleset, TO's are already fine with having control over the balance of the game. They downright said it in their statement with the project.

   We understand that this affects the existing metagame, and will likely adversely impact certain characters while buffing others. This is a product of change and it happened when we removed Delfino, Castle Siege and Halberd from our stage list, and it will happen again now.

   Their reason - they think it will make the game more fair (I think they're wrong, but whatever). It is supposed to be for the good of the community.

I also must point out I'm not even talking about these being ran at major tournaments. If even I could just find some online community to play with these sorts of rules, I would be very happy.

You're one of my people, those who like exploring their game, all its modes, playing everything we possibly can and unlocking it 100% and discovering all the boundaries it offers.
I like playing my full game.

But let's understand this: most people are not like that.
The number of people who haven't unlocked Pac-land because they've never even played Smash Tour is higher than you'd expect. They never play 1-player modes, they never play FFAs or pick more than the legal stages, they don't even turn items on and know how to grab them.
They don't even pick every character a couple times to get the feel of how they move. (that's why they hate Sonic and Bayo: they do not understand them [And for that matter, they rarely pick Lylat, leading to the same issue]).

A huge majority of the community wants their game to be as simple as possible, and as much as I'd love to encourage people to play and understand the game more deeply, they'd refuse, call it a "waste of time" and stick to their simple gameplay.

I for one would love more legal stages and Customs to be played (or even some more possibilities), but the community does not and it's an effort investment I don't know if I am willing to make since its odds for being successful are very low.

Aye, I suppose so. But the big thing I guess is I look at what the Pokémon community has. I look at Pokémon Showdown and Smogon. They have all sorts of different metagames online, which people can participate in, get skilled at, and of course show off said skills with their rank in a laddering system. Offline you still usually get the VGC rules, which is less balanced than Smogon rules, but on Showdown they have all sorts of metagames you can participate in. You have the regular ones - OU, UU, RU, Ubers, NU, PU, and all of those things in doubles. But then you also have Little Cup, Hackmons, Balanced Hackmons, Glitchmons, Random Battles, 1v1, Monotype, (almost) any ability, and the metagame of the month.

All we really have are the main gig, which is kinda like VGC, and then low tier tournies, which is kinda like... the RU tier. We used to have a bit of a high gravity low landing lag metagame here, but that got squashed by nintendo patching the special mode online glitch. So that's it right now.

 

[krazyzyko]

erico9001 IMO The best way to introduce new rulesets is to organize a tourney yourself with these rulesets, stream or record it and post it online to get more support. The cheaper the entrance, the better. And a pot bonus would help.

 

[Halogen]

TOs have to think about how to allocate their resources, the most important being their time and their money. Any action that is taken (for example: having to download a stage from Miiverse) is more time that can't be spent on other matters. You may not realize how many different things a TO needs to take care of at a time. At pretty much every major there are days of preparation required, and during the event, multiple small crises and catastrophes that require close attention. It is to a TOs benefit that their job is as simple as possible; custom moves and stages make the game slightly more complicated, which makes their job a lot less simple.

In my opinion, there is a strong case for what you want alongside the standard competitive format. If I recall correctly, at Frostbite (and i think a few other tournies; maybe Genesis 4? Shine?) they had a side room with all kinds of competitive and casual side events (they were grouped akin to "For Glory" and "For Fun") and the more events you win the more points you got for a good prize. There were a variety of side events for all kinds of interests. Events like Glitch too, with Amiibos and Customs and Triples, a lot of diversity because the community wanted it! The lesson here is that if enough people want to play a certain way, you should parlay that desire to TOs of Smash centric events

There's also a lot of opportunity for these types of things at local events. Although many locals are kinda strapped for resources in terms of setups and time, communicate to your local TO that this is something you are passionate about and if others get behind you, then you may be able to get a customs event going in your region.