Data Everything you need to know about custom equipment stats

[Jdaster64]

So, after exhaustively going through 1000+ pieces of equipment in my Smash 4 Wii U save (and a bit of perusing the 3DS game data), I think I've pretty much nailed down the exact ranges of stats that can be found on randomly dropped custom equipment.

So the gist is, whenever a custom piece of equipment is chosen:

• The positive stat can range from 10 to 85, inclusive. A stat of 10-30 corresponds to the weakest tier of equipment (e.g. Power Gloves), 31-60 to the middle tier (High-Power), and 61-85 to the top (Max-Power).
• The negative stat can range from 50 to 70% of the positive stat.
• If the equipment piece has a "positive" bonus effect, subtract that effect's stat modifier from the positive stat; likewise, if it has a "negative" bonus effect, subtract the absolute value of its stat modifier from the negative stat. All the bonus effects' stat modifiers are listed on the SSBWiki page (I confirmed that they line up with the in-game data, as well). For example, Risky Respawner has a value of -33, Quick Batter has a value of 26, and Critical Hitter has a whopping 58-point penalty.
• No piece of equipment will be generated that at this point would result in a positive or negative stat of less than 5.
• After all the above consideration, if the equipment piece is going to be a generic one (i.e., Brawn, Protection, Agility Badges), multiply both stats by 72%. The equipment tiers won't change from before, so normal Badges have a range of 7-21 positive points, Super Badges 22-43, and Rare Badges 43-61. Interestingly, since this calculation happens last, the amount subtracted due to positive or negative bonuses is lower, potentially leading to a better stat trade-off for the big-hitters like Vampire and Critical Hitter.
• Finally, round both stats down to the nearest integer (if necessary).

Some sample ideal builds with my favorite effects, for reference:

• No bonus effect: +85, -42 (+61, -30 generic)
• Risky Respawner: +85, -9 (+61, -6 generic)
• First Striker: +76, -42 (+54, -30 generic)
• Home-Run Bat: +63, -42 (+45, -30 generic)
• Quick Batter: +59, -42 (+42, -30 generic)
• Auto-Heal: +43, - 42 (+30, -30 generic)
• Vampire: +42, -42 (+30, 30 generic)
• Critical Hitter: +27, -42 (+21, -30 generic)

I'm not sure how sell prices are calculated yet (EDIT: I am now; check my post a few posts down for how), and I don't imagine I'll ever know much about the how the RNG chooses what types/effects of equipment to award. However, hopefully this can be of use for finding the optimal high-powered equipment; it'll help me personally immensely in determining what equipment to keep if I end up near the 3000-piece threshold.

Also of note, the calculations above apparently don't necessary hold for fixed-stat challenge rewards; e.g. the Hyper Smasher Brawn Badge from one of the Wii U challenges (+16 Atk, -28 Def) has worse Defense than what's normally obtainable randomly; in fact, most of the fixed-stat ones range from "meh" to impossibly bad by the random drops' rules (Moon Launcher Protection Badge being a notable exception).

 

[Tiberious]

I don't know why this thread isn't stickied. I'm up to 2,940 pieces, and need to pare down my junk (tried to, but I don't think it saved).

Smash needs a dedicated Sell Equipment screen, rather than piggybacking off Custom.

 

[David Wonn]

Good analysis. I had previously written a guide explaining why selling equipment is mandatory before reaching the dreaded 3000 cap and explained my techniques for streamlining equipment. The numbers you have provided, along with the wiki page, will certainly come in handy. Now if only we can figure out why equipment vanishes sometimes at significantly lower limits than 3000 pieces. I have theories regarding downloaded Mii fighters with custom equipment and some bugs when undoing sales, but they aren't fully confirmed yet.

Speaking of which...

I don't know why this thread isn't stickied. I'm up to 2,940 pieces, and need to pare down my junk (tried to, but I don't think it saved).

Smash needs a dedicated Sell Equipment screen, rather than piggybacking off Custom.

As for sales not saving, you must always save changes to your custom fighter when you exit, even if you haven't truly modified the particular fighter when leaving. This game could definitely benefit from more clear indicators that equipment is about to vanish, and I wish we had even a simple means of "wrapping around" to the bottom of the equipment screen merely by pressing up while at the top. This would save lots of time for those of us who frequently spend significant portions of time managing our equipment.

 

[Tiberious]

As for sales not saving, you must always save changes to your custom fighter when you exit, even if you haven't truly modified the particular fighter when leaving.

Yeah, I'd figured as much when it didn't actually get rid of them. Kinda silly mechanic. Oh well. I'll just make a throwaway item selling mule on someone I don't give two ****s about and delete him when done. The only irritating part is I have to mark all those equipments again.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Hello everyone, this will be my first topic here so I'll apologize in advance if this topic is out of place.

I am a rather big fan of the number of ways equipment can open up fun possibilities that would otherwise not be possible with stock characters. Now even with all these fun and games have been had, I still can not figure out Equipment Values and I feel like I have some items that completely defy expect'd Equipment Values accordin' to the Smash Wiki's page about Equipment Values.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/equipment#Equipment_stats

I don't know how to take screen shots of my treasure trove of equipments, but here are some examples that completely baffles me.


I have 2 Super Agility Badges with +36/-18, but one of them sells for 34G and the other sells for 30G
I have a Super Scope Gloves with +39/-26. That shouldn't be possible since 39+14=53 and 26/53= 0.4956603...
I have an Air Pinata Protection Badge with +55/-7. That shouldn't be possible since 7+38=45 and 45/55= 0.818181...


If anyone can give me and explanation about these oddities I would be highly grateful for the information. Thanks!

Edit: Well, since my topic got move'd into here, that's fine too.

 

[David Wonn]

^

I have never encountered your first scenario above regarding two identical pieces of equipment selling for different prices, so I have no explanation at this time.

The other two actually do mathematically work out, but bear in mind that the game truncates fractions of the negative amounts. Before conversions, your Super Scope Gloves would have started out from the system's perspective as generating +53 for the positive and it happened to pick 50% of it for the negative, which would yield -26.5, but it truncates down to -26 instead. The important point is that -26.5 falls in the 50% to 70% range, even if -26 technically doesn't. Then of course the game applies +53-14 = +39 to compensate for the equipment being a Super Scope.

For your last scenario, keep in mind that badges scale down by 23/32 after the equipment bonus or penalty is applied. The Air Piñata likely started out with a +77, and the game happened to give the negative value of -48, which certainly would fall in the 50% to 70% range. Then the negative is adjusted to -48+38 = -10 to account for the fact that it is Air Piñata equipment. Lastly, the 23/32 multiplier is put into effect to account for it being a badge, and when you truncate the fractions, +77 and -10 scale down to +55 and -7, respectively.

TL;DR version: In the end, the game deals with integers for equipment and truncates fractions, which is why you will see generic equipment like +85/-42, +83/-41, +81/-40, etc. in the best case scenarios. Badges scale down by their multiplier after all other calculations.

 

[Jdaster64]

Just realized I hadn't posted the sell price formula here since I found it out, so here you go:

For starters, the "Normal / Super / Rare" tiers of equipment in game are actually not the best indicator of equipment's strength. Basically, there are 7 different tiers, each with their own corresponding sell price multiplier. These are based on the equipment's positive stat's value before any modifications due to effects / the generic badge multiplier are applied, as follows:

Tier 1 (Normal): +11 ~ +20, 0.36x
Tier 2 (Normal): +21 ~ +30, 0.58x
Tier 3 (Super): +31 ~ +40, 0.97x
Tier 4 (Super): +41 ~ +50, 1.22x
Tier 5 (Super): +51 ~ +60, 1.35x
Tier 6 (Rare): +61 ~ +70, 1.44x
Tier 7 (Rare): +71 ~ +85, 1.71x

The formula for equipment sell price is then (1.0 * (final positive value) + 1.1 * (stat modifier for positive effect) - 0.6 * (final negative value) - 0.4 * (stat modifier for negative effect)) * (price multiplier), rounded down.

As a result of generic badges' stat rounding, it is indeed possible for two generic badges with identical stats to wind up with different sell prices if they were in different price tiers to begin with; take for instance a Rare Brawn Badge and a Super Brawn Badge, both w/(+43, -22). The former would have originally had a stat spread of (+61, -31) and been in Price Tier 6 before the generic multiplier, and sells for (43 - 22*.6) * 1.44 = 42G, but the latter, which was (+60 -31) and in Price Tier 5, only sells for (43 - 22*.6) * 1.35 = 40G.

The fact that @ SwordM13X24 had that happen with two Super Brawn Badges near the Tier 4 / 5 boundary would suggest that the positive stat must be able to be non-integral to begin with, as 50 * 23 / 32 = 35.94, but 31 * 23 / 32 = 36.66.

For future reference, all of the info in the first post, as well as the above sell-price info, can be found in a single post on my blog here (as well as another article on Smash Run enemy patch drops, for those interested).

As a side note, I mentioned that the fixed-stat equipment gotten as challenge rewards need not follow the same rules as random drops, giving the example of the Wii U's Hyper Smasher Brawn Badge. Turns out the 3DS's Critical Hitter Brawn Badge is even more egregiously bad, with an impossibly abysmal spread of (+7 Attack, -40 Defense). Not only is -40 about as bad a negative stat as you could possibly get on any generic badge (-42 is the worst, and an ideal 50% negative stat won't ever be worse than -30), but you can't normally get worse than -34 with that low an Attack stat (or alternatively, lower than +15 with that high a Defense loss). Pleh. Figures that I haven't gotten a Critical Hitter Brawn Badge yet on the Wii U (though I have gotten both other types), given that it's guaranteed to be an overall improvement, and highly likely to be better in both stats.

 

[David Wonn]

Out of curiosity, where does the 23/32 multiplier get derived? Based on the duplicate item selling for both 30G and 34G, I'm more inclined to speculate that the multiplier may actually be 18/25, or 72% exactly. This revised multiplier satisfies the theory that all positive values of equipment start with an integer, while also solving how the duplicate item sold for different values. We can see that 50 * 18 / 25 = 36 while 51 * 18 / 25 = 36.72, both of which truncate to 36, while being in different tiers. Keeping everything else in the formulae above intact, we can easily derive how the equipment sold for both 30G and 34G.

 

[Jdaster64]

Out of curiosity, where does the 23/32 multiplier get derived? Based on the duplicate item selling for both 30G and 34G, I'm more inclined to speculate that the multiplier may actually be 18/25, or 72% exactly. This revised multiplier satisfies the theory that all positive values of equipment start with an integer, while also solving how the duplicate item sold for different values. We can see that 50 * 18 / 25 = 36 while 51 * 18 / 25 = 36.72, both of which truncate to 36, while being in different tiers. Keeping everything else in the formulae above intact, we can easily derive how the equipment sold for both 30G and 34G.

That multiplier was derived experimentally and doesn't have any hard data backing it up, so it very well might be 0.72 instead. Would explain that sell price difference, and it wouldn't change any of the other boundary values. I'm surprised that that multiplier doesn't appear to be in the equipment parameter files at all, since it isn't as round as the 50% - 70% range. Unless it has something to do with these integer values I couldn't map to anything just before the sell price multipliers:

33 25 65 45 10 5 20 60 50 70 12 72 5

 

[David Wonn]

I have finally experienced the glitch for myself where two pieces of equipment with identical stats sell for different prices. I snapped two pics demonstrating where one Super Agility Badge with +36/-20 stats sells for 32G while the other sells for 29G, just in case we wanted another data point to further confirm the new 72% multiplier for badges. The primary reason I never noticed this glitch before is because I immediately sell all low- and mid-grade equipment to avoid the dreaded 3000 cap on equipment. I happened to pick up both of these on the same Crazy Orders ticket, and it was too hard not to notice.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey, if anybody needs some more numbers on equipment I have a truckload. I've gotten at least 8000 pieces between both games and specifically kept anything with an ability. I think I have at least one of every ability on each version.

 

[Jdaster64]

Hey, if anybody needs some more numbers on equipment I have a truckload. I've gotten at least 8000 pieces between both games and specifically kept anything with an ability. I think I have at least one of every ability on each version.

The formulas in the thread should be sufficient; the 3,000+ equipment I used from my Wii U and 3DS versions all line up with it (aside from the fixed-stat challenge rewards, etc.).

 

[SwordM13X24]

Has anyone figure'd out what the actual equipment values mean? For example like how much faster does +200 speed mean and etc.?
I just conduct'd tests for defense and attack values in only damage percents, but not in knockback and any other potential values that attack and defense could affect.

I use'd Roy with attack/speed equipment with a full Flare Blade on a +0 defense target to get my attack numbers.
I use'd Roy with +200 attack and a full Flare Blade on a target with varies defense equipment to get my defense numbers.

Attack Stat

Spoiler

Equip Value - Actual Damage - Percent Difference
-130 34 -32%
-125 34 -32%
-120 34 -32%
-110 35 -30%
-100 36 -28%
-90 37 -26%
-80 38 -24%
-75 39 -22%
-70 39 -22%
-60 40 -20%
-50 42 -16%
-40 43 -14%
-30 45 -10%
-25 46 -8%
-20 46 -8%
-10 48 -4%
0 50 0%
10 54 8%
20 58 16%
25 60 20%
30 62 24%
40 66 32%
43 67 34%
50 70 40%
60 73 46%
70 76 52%
75 77 54%
80 79 58%
90 82 64%
100 85 70%
110 86 72%
120 88 76%
125 88 76%
130 89 78%
140 91 82%
150 92 84%
160 94 88%
170 95 90%
175 96 92%
180 97 94%
190 98 96%
200 100 100%

Defense Stat

Spoiler

Equip Value - Actual Damage - Percent Difference
-130 179 79%
-125 177 77%
-120 176 76%
-110 173 73%
-100 170 70%
-90 164 64%
-80 158 58%
-75 155 55%
-70 152 52%
-60 146 46%
-50 140 40%
-40 132 32%
-30 124 24%
-25 120 20%
-20 116 16%
-10 108 8%
0 100 0%
10 98 -2%
20 97 -3%
25 97 -3%
30 96 -4%
40 95 -5%
43 95 -5%
50 94 -6%
60 94 -6%
70 93 -7%
75 92 -8%
80 92 -8%
90 91 -9%
100 90 -10%
110 90 -10%
120 90 -10%
125 89 -11%
130 89 -11%
140 89 -11%
150 88 -12%
160 88 -12%
170 88 -12%
175 87 -13%
180 87 -13%
190 87 -13%
200 87 -13%

Some time later, I could plot these points on a graph and find the curve for the formula of what attack and defense values do for damage percentages. Of course there's plenty of truncate'd decimals and stuff that I'm not seein', but I believe these numbers should be a first step forward to figurin' out the curve. I'm also limit'd on what negative values I can get with the equipment stash that I have.

Also I apologize that I don't know how to make spoilers on Smashboards...

Edit: Well that wasn't too hard to figure out the spoilers!

 

[Jdaster64]

Huh, I knew 200 Attack corresponded to 100%, so I always assumed the damage curves were linear; apparently that doesn't seem to be the case, especially for Defense. I assume you did all the testing on Training Mode so rage/staling wasn't a factor?

Since Roy's Flare Blade with 200 Attack does exactly 100 damage, you could get more accuracy by using the move multiple times in an area where the opponent can't die (like a custom stage or such), then comparing it to 100x the number of uses of the move.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Huh, I knew 200 Attack corresponded to 100%, so I always assumed the damage curves were linear; apparently that doesn't seem to be the case, especially for Defense. I assume you did all the testing on Training Mode so rage/staling wasn't a factor?

Yes, I did all this on Trainin' Mode so no stales around. Rage only affects knockback which doesn't really matter for damage percentages.

Since Roy's Flare Blade with 200 Attack does exactly 100 damage, you could get more accuracy by using the move multiple times in an area where the opponent can't die (like a custom stage or such), then comparing it to 100x the number of uses of the move.

I'm on 3DS, so Custom Stages is not an option for me. How would usin' the same move over and over provide other data unless Flare Blade had some weird decimal damage to begin with?

 

[Jdaster64]

Yes, I did all this on Trainin' Mode so no stales around. Rage only affects knockback which doesn't really matter for damage percentages.

I'm on 3DS, so Custom Stages is not an option for me. How would usin' the same move over and over provide other data unless Flare Blade had some weird decimal damage to begin with?

Ah, that would be an issue; still, damage dealt can have a fractional part, so using a move eight times would let you round the move's damage to the nearest eighth of a percent, where using it once only gives you it rounded down to the nearest percent.

 

[SwordM13X24]

So if a move does 10.125 damage, then it'll do a total of 81 damage on Trainin' mode if ya hit the target 8 times?
Well... I don't think even Bowser or Kin' Dedede would appreciate gettin' hit by 8 full Flare Blades...

 

[SwordM13X24]

Sorry for the double post, but I've just plot'd the data into a beautiful graph. I'm not very fimilar with Desmos to figure out the function/curve of best fit for the data though.


Attack Graph

Spoiler

Defense Graph

Spoiler

 

[Jaedrik]

Thanks SwordM13X24 ! this really helps with equipment optimization. Looks like defense isn't all that helpful to have positive, but hurts really bad to have negative, at least in terms of damage received.
So, attack 70 or so first before putting anything into defense, and speed is independent for combo optimization etc.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Something doesn't seem to add up with the following statement...

If the equipment piece has a "positive" bonus effect, subtract that effect's stat modifier from the positive stat; likewise, if it has a "negative" bonus effect, subtract the absolute value of its stat modifier from the negative stat. All the bonus effects' stat modifiers are listed on the SSBWiki page (I confirmed that they line up with the in-game data, as well). For example, Risky Respawner has a value of -33, Quick Batter has a value of 26, and Critical Hitter has a whopping 58-point penalty.

I did some calculations, by having 42 as the negative stat value. Now, you said that for equipment with negative bonus effects, you need to subtract the stat modifier from the negative stat. I did that, and I ran into a dilemma that just does NOT add up when I used the stat modifier for the Anchor Jump equipment.

42-43=-1

Last I've checked, the negative stat value can't go lower than 5. I'm beginning to wonder if you should be adding the stat modifier onto the positive stat instead. Of course, that would mean that 53 (38 for the badges) would be the lowest possible positive value for the Anchor Jump equipment.

Edit: Okay, I've investigated the situation even further, and it seems that I had to do some more equation work with different multipliers.

Apparently, not all negative effect equipment will be able to have a negative value that's 50% of the positive value, since with the Anchor Jump equipment, the negative value can't go lower than 57% of the positive value; 5 (3 for the badges) is the lowest possible negative value. This also means that Anchor Jump's positive value can never go lower than 69 (49 for the badges).

Edit 2: Okay, here's a table that I've composed, based on the wiki page's data, in regards to the lowest possible values for the negative bonus effect equipment.

Item Prefix | Lowest Positive Value | Lowest Negative Value Percentage
Air Piñata | 62 | 51%
Air Pushover | 58 | 50%
Anchor Jump | 69 | 57%
Antiglide | 62 | 51%
Antileap | 59 | 50%
Crash Lander | 59 | 50%
Dodgy Dodger | 55 | 50%
Double-Jump Drag | 69 | 57%
Hasty Edge | 15 | 50%
Imperfect Shield | 58 | 50%
Item Lobber | 38 | 50%
Lo-Jump | 58 | 50%
Meanderer | 19 | 50%
Picky Eater | 18 | 50%
Risky Respawner | 55 | 50%
Shield Degenerator | 39 | 50%
Stroller | 50 | 50%
Tough Edge | 53 | 50%

 

[Jdaster64]

I suppose I may not have explicitly stated it, but yes, it will never generate equipment with either stat under 5 (before the generic *.72 multiplier), meaning that the positive stat has a higher minimum for really negative effects.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did take the time to study the equation that's used for selling equipment, and there's something that needs to kept note.

Since both 60 and 61 get rounded down to 43 when they're multiplied by 0.72, the key to figuring out the price scaling for the uncommon and rare badge equipment goes as follows...

• The uncommon badge equipment (Super Brawn Badge, Super Protection Badge, Super Agility Badge) price scale does not go higher than 1.35x.
• The rare badge equipment (Rare Brawn Badge, Rare Protection Badge, Rare Agility Badge) price scale does not go lower than 1.44x.

Basically, even though the uncommon and rare badges can both have a positive value of 43, the rare badges get the stronger price scale. I found this out myself while checking out the selling price values for the equipment that I own on my copy of Smash Wii U.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Curious... has anyone been able to conduct tests on what speed equipment numbers actually translate into speed values?

Also, which negative equipment effects has the best "penalty stat bonus" to how inconsequential the effect is in a 1v1? Picky Eater is a good example of havin' an effect that doesn't set back the player a whole lot, but the stat bonus to get compensated for the effect drawback is very little.

 

[David Wonn]

^

I have not conducted tests on speed values, but I see that your graphs on attack and defense are quite informative. I am curious whether knockback has been accounted for when high defense is in place. Since all my characters used high defense to easily clear classic 9.0, I strongly suspect that knockback is drastically reduced since even lightweights like Jigglypuff live to 200% and beyond in the final battles. I don't know if the speed penalty actually helps in this regard or if it truly is the high defense causing this.

As for the best negative effect equipment, I think the general consensus is that Risky Respawner has the best payoff while minimally impacting fighters in 1v1, or any mode for that matter. The primary reason is because they all stack well without hurting a fighter further. Picky Eater in 1v1 can minimally impact matches which involve Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[SwordM13X24]

^

I have not conducted tests on speed values, but I see that your graphs on attack and defense are quite informative. I am curious whether knockback has been accounted for when high defense is in place. Since all my characters used high defense to easily clear classic 9.0, I strongly suspect that knockback is drastically reduced since even lightweights like Jigglypuff live to 200% and beyond in the final battles. I don't know if the speed penalty actually helps in this regard or if it truly is the high defense causing this.

As for the best negative effect equipment, I think the general consensus is that Risky Respawner has the best payoff while minimally impacting fighters in 1v1, or any mode for that matter. The primary reason is because they all stack well without hurting a fighter further. Picky Eater in 1v1 can minimally impact matches which involve Mr. Game & Watch.

So for an optimal equipment set, some defense would be warranted in order to live longer (might be more combo prone as a drawback from less knockback?) if the hypothesis of defense stats actually does lower knockback and possibly other values as well?

Risky Respawner for pretty much any other slot that's not use'd for a positive effect for "THE" optimal set if that's what the meta would be for equipment base'd play?

Or can we just say that there's lots more experimentations and labbin' that still needs to be done for a more definitive answer?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Also, which negative equipment effects has the best "penalty stat bonus" to how inconsequential the effect is in a 1v1? Picky Eater is a good example of havin' an effect that doesn't set back the player a whole lot, but the stat bonus to get compensated for the effect drawback is very little.

For Little Mac, the Air Pushover equipment wouldn't affect him too much, since his air game is already terrible to begin with.

Also, Anchor Jump might have its uses for anyone who's quite floaty, and could actually benefit from having the faster falling speed.

 

[SwordM13X24]

For Little Mac, the Air Pushover equipment wouldn't affect him too much, since his air game is already terrible to begin with.

Also, Anchor Jump might have its uses for anyone who's quite floaty, and could actually benefit from having the faster falling speed.

Air Pushover for Lil' Mac makes sense for sure. Anchor Jump might hinder ANYone if they were to try to recover low, though might there could be other possible applications might there be for faster fall speed in general?

^

I have not conducted tests on speed values, but I see that your graphs on attack and defense are quite informative. I am curious whether knockback has been accounted for when high defense is in place. Since all my characters used high defense to easily clear classic 9.0, I strongly suspect that knockback is drastically reduced since even lightweights like Jigglypuff live to 200% and beyond in the final battles. I don't know if the speed penalty actually helps in this regard or if it truly is the high defense causing this.

As for the best negative effect equipment, I think the general consensus is that Risky Respawner has the best payoff while minimally impacting fighters in 1v1, or any mode for that matter. The primary reason is because they all stack well without hurting a fighter further. Picky Eater in 1v1 can minimally impact matches which involve Mr. Game & Watch.

Unless I've gone crazy or somethin', I'm sure that turnin' items off will not let G&W spawn an apple if he gets a 7.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A user at the SmashWiki seems to think that the maximum positive value is actually 90, but the equipment examples that are being used just do not match up with the calculation formula.

 

[Jdaster64]

The max is absolutely 85. Apparently, you can use cheats to hack equipment with less restrictive values from 1-90 and the game won't complain, but this should be accurate for any legitimately obtained random equipment.

 

[Clefargle]

Can anyone here confirm or deny whether glider equipment changes horizontal movement during b-reversal or wave bounce? I tested it and thought it made a small difference, but it could be wishful thinking. Thanks

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Can anyone here confirm or deny whether glider equipment changes horizontal movement during b-reversal or wave bounce? I tested it and thought it made a small difference, but it could be wishful thinking. Thanks

I have tried to do various experiments with the Glider and Antiglide bonus effects, but it's important to keep note that the Speed stat affects ALL forms of mobility, which includes air speed.

For some examples, if Sheik has the Antiglide bonus effect, she may still be faster in the air than Link if her speed stat is higher. Likewise, if Rosalina has the Glider bonus effect, she might still get outsped in the air by Wario if her speed stat is lower than that of Wario's.

I've actually tried to see if +18 speed with Glider can make Rosalina move faster in the air than +19 speed Wario and Roy. But for some odd reason, that 1 point speed difference seems to enable Roy and Wario to keep up with Rosalina, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Speed numbers still a mystery? That's a darn shame.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Speed numbers still a mystery? That's a darn shame.

Yeah I've done different experiments with the equipment and bonus effects, but it's not easy trying to keep full tabs on the speed value. In theory, I would think that with the Glider bonus effect, Rosalina would be able to move faster in the air than Wario and Roy, while being tied with Mewtwo's air speed, but I'm probably guessing that their speed values have to be "exactly" the same. In a similar manner, I would think that the Antiglide bonus effect on Sheik would make her air speed be tied with Link's air speed, but it's probable that that would only be the case if their speed values are the same as well.

What I can say though, is that combining the Thistle Jump and Anchor Jump bonus effects together isn't exactly going to give you any favorable results. While combining Thistle Jump and Anchor Jump should result in a falling speed decrease of 0.84x, gravity would still suffer an increase of up to 1.33x; 0.95 x 1.4 = 1.33. As a result, your fighter's jump height would still be lower than if you were to ditch the Anchor Jump bonus effect altogether.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Say we assume that +200 Speed gave ya 2x run speed, jump height, air speed, etc.

And let's pretend that Robin's run speed is 1.0 and Sonic's run speed is 2.0.

In theory, if that's how speed works, then Robin should run just as fast as Sonic. However, we don't even know how much of a difference +50 Speed, +100 Speed, etc translates into.

So how DO we calculate how fast a run speed unit is? I know there's a chart of character attributes on http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Attributes , but what DOES a 3.5 unit mean? I mean it like how a frame is define'd as 1/60 of a second.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

SwordM13X24 : I did look at some speed comparisons even further, and I can tell you the following.

• A +100 speed Bowser Jr. with the Speed Walker bonus effect would still walk a bit slower than a +43 speed Marth and Lucina.
• A +43 speed Sonic would still run a bit faster than a +61 speed Little Mac, and he does outrun a +100 speed Bowser Jr..
• A +18 speed Samus with the Sprinter bonus effect does manage to outrun a +43 speed Luigi.
• A +55 speed Pikachu manages to keep up with a +43 speed Falco with the Sprinter bonus effect.
• A -64 speed Bowser with the Meanderer bonus effect seems to walk in a similar speed as a -72 speed Ganondorf, if not a bit slower.
• A +100 speed Bowser Jr. can apparently keep up with a +43 speed Corrin with the Glider bonus effect if they're both in the air.
• A +55 speed Bowser Jr. with the Sprinter bonus effect does manage to outrun a +100 speed Bowser Jr..
• A +43 speed Peach with the Glider bonus effect can apparently keep up with a +28 speed Yoshi if they're both in the air.
• A +55 speed Diddy Kong walks faster than a +19 speed Donkey Kong.

 

[SwordM13X24]

If we include Speed Walker/Sprinter/Glider/Antiglide/etc. that variable's gonna make it tough to figure out what numbers are what.

Is the speed values on the default characters like Ike's 1.5 run speed and Marth's 1.5 walk speed mean that they would be at the same speed? If Ike's run and Marth's speed ties, then we could say that the units are universal to all speed data. But it raises the question of exactly does 1.5 units mean? 1.5 meters per second or somethin'?

I ran a +200 Sonic vs a +85~ Sonic with 3 Sprinters to compare, and to my surprise Sprinter Sonic beat out +200 normal Sonic without a contest.

Oh, as a final thought, here's an experiment you could try out. Lucario's walk speed is 1.05 and Zero Suit Samus's run is exactly 2.1. How much speed equip value (without Speed Walker) does it take for Lucario's walk to match the run speed? That could be a good start on determinin' on what exactly speed values give to the character in return.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

SwordM13X24 : Well for starters, here are the speed values that you'd get if you refer back to my research from my past few posts.

Walk Speed
Bowser Jr. + Speed Walker: 0.88 -> 1.144 (outwalks Mr. Game & Watch, but is still slower than Yoshi and Roy)
Bowser + Meanderer: 0.858 -> 0.6864 (slower than Jigglypuff)

Run Speed
Bowser Jr. + Sprinter: 1.424 -> 1.8512 (outruns Diddy Kong, but is still slower than Pikachu)
Samus + Sprinter: 1.504 -> 1.9552 (slightly faster than Roy)
Falco + Sprinter: 1.472 -> 1.9136 (outruns Mewtwo and Meta Knight, but is still slower than Roy)

Air Speed
Rosalina + Glider: 1 -> 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo)
Sheik + Antiglide: 1.1 -> 0.88 (tied with Diddy Kong and Link)
Corrin + Glider: 1 -> 1.25 (tied with Mewtwo)
Peach + Glider: 0.95 -> 1.1875 (slightly faster than Greninja, but is still slower than Zero Suit Samus)

Now, as for your suggestion with Lucario, I can tell you that Donkey Kong normally walks faster than Diddy Kong; 1.3 vs. 1.25. But since giving Diddy Kong +55 speed enabled him to outwalk a +19 speed Donkey Kong, you'd have to either raise Donkey Kong's speed, or decrease Diddy Kong's speed, until their walk speed is almost identical.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I apologize for the double post, but I looked further into the speed stat, and here's what I've recorded.

Walk Speed Notes
Donkey Kong: 1.3
Diddy Kong: 1.25
Marth: 1.5

Run Speed Notes
Zero Suit Samus: 2.1
Charizard: 2
Captain Falcon: 2.32
Little Mac: 2.24

• A +5 speed Diddy Kong walks slightly slower than default Donkey Kong's walk speed.
• A +6 speed Diddy Kong walks slightly slower than default Donkey Kong's walk speed.
• A +7 speed Diddy Kong starts to walk slightly faster than default Donkey Kong's walk speed.
• A +10 speed Diddy Kong walks slightly faster than default Donkey Kong's walk speed.
• A +31 speed Diddy Kong walks at almost the same speed as default Marth's walk speed.
• A +100 speed Diddy Kong still walks slower than default Charizard's run speed.
• A +120 speed Diddy Kong walks at almost the same speed as default Charizard's run speed.
• A +140 speed Diddy Kong still walks slightly slower than default Zero Suit Samus's run speed.
• A +152 speed Diddy Kong walks at almost the same speed as default Zero Suit Samus's run speed.
• A +160 speed Diddy Kong walks slightly faster than default Zero Suit Samus's run speed.
• A +192 speed Diddy Kong walks faster than default Zero Suit Samus's run speed.
• A +192 speed Diddy Kong still walks slower than default Captain Falcon's run speed.
• A +192 speed Diddy Kong still walks slightly slower than default Little Mac's run speed.

At first, I was under the impression that a speed value that's divisible by 6 would give your fighter a 0.05 speed increase, since +31 speed enabled Diddy Kong to walk at roughly the same speed as Marth's walk speed. However, that doesn't seem to be the case if default Donkey Kong can still walk faster than +6 speed Diddy Kong.

In a way, the theory I had would've gone as follows...

Spoiler: Speed Theory

+3: +0.025
+6: +0.05
+9: +0.075
+12: +0.1
+15: +0.125
+18: +0.15
+21: +0.175
+24: +0.2
+27: +0.225
+30: +0.25

But apparently, the value increase formula is more complex than that, especially since +200 is the maximum speed value.

Update: Some more speed experiments...

Walk Speed Notes
Falco: 1.28
Jigglypuff: 0.7

Run Speed Notes
Meta Knight: 1.9
Greninja: 2.08
Villager: 1.27

• A +200 speed Jigglypuff still walks slower than default Donkey Kong's walk speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff walks slightly faster than default Diddy Kong's walk speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff still walks slightly slower than default Falco's walk speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff still walks slightly slower than default Villager's run speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff runs faster than default Little Mac's run speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff runs faster than default Meta Knight's run speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff runs faster than default Charizard's run speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff runs faster than default Greninja's run speed.
• A +200 speed Jigglypuff still runs slightly slower than default Captain Falcon's run speed.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Okay, for those who want to hack their Smash 3DS equipment supply, I've managed to record the "range values" that are used for each positive value range.

Note: The following table is for generic and negative bonus effect equipment.

Character-specific Equipment Positive Values | Badge Equipment Positive Values | Range Values
10 - 20 | 7 - 14 | 24, 25
21 - 30 | 15 - 21 | 20, 21
31 - 40 | 22 - 28 | 16, 17
41 - 50 | 29 - 36 | 12, 13
51 - 60 | 36 - 43 | 8, 9
61 - 70 | 43 - 50 | 4, 5
71 - 85 | 51 - 61 | 0, 1

As for finding the range values for the positive bonus effects, you'd just have to add the stat modifier value onto the positive value. Let's say that you have a pair of Critical Hitter Gloves that have a +5 attack value. Add 58 onto the positive value, and you'll get 63. As a result, the +5 attack Critical Hitter Gloves should have its range value set to either 4 or 5 if it's to be considered legal by the game.

The range values may also influence the price scaling for the Brawn Badge, Protection Badge, and Agility Badge, but that's only really noticeable if the positive value is set to either +36 or +43.

Update

If your badge equipment has a positive bonus effect, to figure out its range value, you'd just have to figure out what the positive value was "before" implementing the 0.72x multiplier. So for a +5 attack Glider Brawn Badge, the positive value would originally be 7 (or 8), since when you multiply 7 (or 8) by 0.72, the sum rounds down to 5. Then, you do 7+25 (or 8+25), and you'll get 32 (or 33). This would mean that the +5 attack Glider Brawn Badge's range value needs to be set to either 16 or 17.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I apologize again for making another consecutive post, but the table below is for those who don't want to mess around with badge equipment value calculations.

Spoiler

Character-specific Equipment Value | Badge Equipment Value | Positive Value's Range Value (generic equipment)
85 | 61 | 0, 1
84 | 60 | 0, 1
83 | 59 | 0, 1
82 | 59 | 0, 1
81 | 58 | 0, 1
80 | 57 | 0, 1
79 | 56 | 0, 1
78 | 56 | 0, 1
77 | 55 | 0, 1
76 | 54 | 0, 1
75 | 54 | 0, 1
74 | 53 | 0, 1
73 | 52 | 0, 1
72 | 51 | 0, 1
71 | 51 | 0, 1
70 | 50 | 4, 5
69 | 49 | 4, 5
68 | 48 | 4, 5
67 | 48 | 4, 5
66 | 47 | 4, 5
65 | 46 | 4, 5
64 | 46 | 4, 5
63 | 45 | 4, 5
62 | 44 | 4, 5
61 | 43 | 4, 5
60 | 43 | 8, 9
59 | 42 | 8, 9
58 | 41 | 8, 9
57 | 41 | 8, 9
56 | 40 | 8, 9
55 | 39 | 8, 9
54 | 38 | 8, 9
53 | 38 | 8, 9
52 | 37 | 8, 9
51 | 36 | 8, 9
50 | 36 | 12, 13
49 | 35 | 12, 13
48 | 34 | 12, 13
47 | 33 | 12, 13
46 | 33 | 12, 13
45 | 32 | 12, 13
44 | 31 | 12, 13
43 | 30 | 12, 13
42 | 30 | 12, 13
41 | 29 | 12, 13
40 | 28 | 16, 17
39 | 28 | 16, 17
38 | 27 | 16, 17
37 | 26 | 16, 17
36 | 25 | 16, 17
35 | 25 | 16, 17
34 | 24 | 16, 17
33 | 23 | 16, 17
32 | 23 | 16, 17
31 | 22 | 16, 17
30 | 21 | 20, 21
29 | 20 | 20, 21
28 | 20 | 20, 21
27 | 19 | 20, 21
26 | 18 | 20, 21
25 | 18 | 20, 21
24 | 17 | 20, 21
23 | 16 | 20, 21
22 | 15 | 20, 21
21 | 15 | 20, 21
20 | 14 | 24, 25
19 | 13 | 24, 25
18 | 12 | 24, 25
17 | 12 | 24, 25
16 | 11 | 24, 25
15 | 10 | 24, 25
14 | 10 | 24, 25
13 | 9 | 24, 25
12 | 8 | 24, 25
11 | 7 | 24, 25
10 | 7 | 24, 25
9 | 6
8 | 5
7 | 5
6 | 4
5 | 3