El cazador de la nocturno-Lucario matchup discussion

[Kuro~]

Still gonna test it. And also maha, another factor could be when we dtilt it affects our hurtbox

 

[Kuro~]

Ok guys, so i tested it. AND IT'S BACKWARDS!!! Lucarios ftilt barely outranges our jab but our dtilt does the same to his ftilt. I also checked to be absolutely sure and we can JCusmash his dair (frame data supported this anyways). And WE CAN uair his dair. But it's spaced similar to how you have to against peach.

Also, i did some Vs gaw testing and we can ftilt him if he uses bair to approach we can also sdi and immediately woi cancel or dair him safely. Also, there seems to be a strange requirement, but utitl CAN beat dair. At the very best it trades with it every time(with no spacing) Usmash only beats dair if we are slightly left or right. But it's guarenteed which means we can sliding usmash or hyphen usmash or simply step forward usmash. Oh and our spaced uair beats GaW dair everytime. So if he's in the air just retreat autocancel upair and your safe from dair

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

while that's good to know about g&w..... this is the lucario section lol kuro. the lucario's don't care. but good job testing that out. and that's weird i would have thought their ftilt is longer but i guess at the very tip dtilt is a bit disjointed so i can see it happening that way.

anyways ya good job on the testing broski. any you lucario's got more to add because now is where we need to find out if this MU is (from the pit side) a 0, -1, or +1. tbh my vote goes to 0 as im looking at both sides arguements and when each side has a viable counter point to the others point on all aspects it generally tends to mean it is an even MU.

but more info from more lucarios would be appreciated as well (not that you aren't enough red ryu and myth, but more info is always good)

 

[Kuro~]

while that's good to know about g&w..... this is the lucario section lol kuro. the lucario's don't care. but good job testing that out. and that's weird i would have thought their ftilt is longer but i guess at the very tip dtilt is a bit disjointed so i can see it happening that way.

anyways ya good job on the testing broski. any you lucario's got more to add because now is where we need to find out if this MU is (from the pit side) a 0, -1, or +1. tbh my vote goes to 0 as im looking at both sides arguements and when each side has a viable counter point to the others point on all aspects it generally tends to mean it is an even MU.

but more info from more lucarios would be appreciated as well (not that you aren't enough red ryu and myth, but more info is always good)

Honestly, i think it's pit's favor cuz i feel like i don't have to work super hard in this mu. I think pit has a slight advantage. Idk how to explain it but pit doesn't really have trouble keeping lucario out.

Also, @ the GaW thing. BE QUIET I WANTED TO TELL PPL!!!!

 

[Xcallion]

something i'd like to ask: are pit's more afraid of 187 aura sphere's than lucarios are of mirror shielded aura spheres? there are a certain amount of mindgames that go on with that.
ie: Lucario *Brings out an almost fully charged, high % aura sphere*
Pit "OMG!" *Mirror shield*
Lucario *Cancels the charge, grabs and kills with a throw*
one possible scenario^
also IIRC Mirror shield multiplies damage and Knockback by 1.5, so consider that when you answer.

I'm going to say MU of +1 pit because we camp lucario so hard(arrows+reflectors), we can chase and kill him off stage (lucario will often have to make a choice, between up-b'ing straight into a fair/bair or attacking and then falling too low to recover), and one of luc's most powerful kill moves is possibly a threat to himself(if we predict correctly).

 

[Kuro~]

something i'd like to ask: are pit's more afraid of 187 aura sphere's than lucarios are of mirror shielded aura spheres? there are a certain amount of mindgames that go on with that.
ie: Lucario *Brings out an almost fully charged, high % aura sphere*
Pit "OMG!" *Mirror shield*
Lucario *Cancels the charge, grabs and kills with a throw*
one possible scenario^
also IIRC Mirror shield multiplies damage and Knockback by 1.5, so consider that when you answer.

I'm going to say MU of +1 pit because we camp lucario so hard(arrows+reflectors), we can chase and kill him off stage (lucario will often have to make a choice, between up-b'ing straight into a fair/bair or attacking and then falling too low to recover), and one of luc's most powerful kill moves is possibly a threat to himself(if we predict correctly).

187= cop dead xD think about it...THE JAPANESE ARE CLEVER lol.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

xcallion, you are really underestimating how much reach and power lucario's arrows are. we can't "easily" chase him offstage, but we can do it rather effectively. but if you mess up, you can get punished really hard especially by their bair. so yes we can chase lucario much farther out than any other character in the game bar MK. and it is something they do need to legitly worry about. however they are not hopeless out there by any means

also guys, none of you are thinking about how much of a threat lucario is when he ISN'T high in aura. lucario's aerials lead into long true combos and strings at low aura that can still do massive damage due to the sheer number of hits they are landing. if you get hit by one of these strings, not only due you have to catch up, you now have to deal with aura stuff. seriously none of you guys are taking his side of the MU into account. lucario is really good at dealing lots of damage after getting in just one hit. which is why once a lucario is inside his proper spacing it's hard to deal with him.
we on the other hand, are good at keeping them from getting that initial combo starting hit on us. our fast and knock away based moveset keep lucario at bay and our arrows are what make it so that we can force them to try and get through our onstage fortress over and over. this is really a cat and mouse match. they are the cat onstage, we are the cat offstage. in both situations though, the mouse we are chasing is Jerry so it becomes rather difficult to actually catch him

 

[Kuro~]

xcallion, you are really underestimating how much reach and power lucario's arrows are. we can't "easily" chase him offstage, but we can do it rather effectively. but if you mess up, you can get punished really hard especially by their bair. so yes we can chase lucario much farther out than any other character in the game bar MK. and it is something they do need to legitly worry about. however they are not hopeless out there by any means

also guys, none of you are thinking about how much of a threat lucario is when he ISN'T high in aura. lucario's aerials lead into long true combos and strings at low aura that can still do massive damage due to the sheer number of hits they are landing. if you get hit by one of these strings, not only due you have to catch up, you now have to deal with aura stuff. seriously none of you guys are taking his side of the MU into account. lucario is really good at dealing lots of damage after getting in just one hit. which is why once a lucario is inside his proper spacing it's hard to deal with him.
we on the other hand, are good at keeping them from getting that initial combo starting hit on us. our fast and knock away based moveset keep lucario at bay and our arrows are what make it so that we can force them to try and get through our onstage fortress over and over. this is really a cat and mouse match. they are the cat onstage, we are the cat offstage. in both situations though, the mouse we are chasing is Jerry so it becomes rather difficult to actually catch him

I'm pretty sure i've stated that once he gets in he gets in hard (unless your like me with SDI CLOSE to dooms not quite on his level yet ) but he has a hard time getting in on the first place. Also, after reviewing some matches i think he does need to worry about offstage but i think the biggest thing we have on him is punishing landings and juggling. We have a super far reaching upsmash fast enough to punish oos great grabs to reset the situation and arrows to buffered dash attack to punish just about any option to the ground. dtilt,nair, and FH dair are too good against him. Inf jab is amazing.

 

[fUddO]

For me, GaW Dair is easier to outspace than either Lucario's or Peach's. I think it's has to do with the stall-and-fall properties. I agree that the MU is in Pit's favour, probably a +1.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

actually my post agrees with you on all of that lol. im just saying this MU is all about each character having to play a lot of risk reward when actually going after the other is all im sayin, onstage or off

 

[Kuro~]

actually my post agrees with you on all of that lol. im just saying this MU is all about each character having to play a lot of risk reward when actually going after the other is all im sayin, onstage or off

Yup i agree. And that's how i came to +1. Cuz in general, in this matchup, pit's alot safeer in his risks than lucario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ok i agree. I see where your coming from with the high thing. Kinda like snake and wario in some ways. Also My point was for the juggling thing is it's super easy for pit to juggle lucario. Everytime its like a free 30+% if not more and can set up easy reads for the kill. Also, lucarios dair beats pit's uair if the pit is just "using it". But if he spaces to the left/right (which he has to do for several matchups like link, tink, peach, gaw) then it DOES beat dair. Ok ik my point was it's an option. No other character has something unique like that. ANd also like maha said we can wind lock you after a foot stool. Im gonna test that lucario ftilt shiz im super curious about that now.

Edit: I think brinstar would be pretty amazing for pit vs lucario cuz we can take our sweet time there very easily, bair kills super early, and the lava leads to easy combos because of the wind lock trait pit has. And easy bairs. And dair camping/circle camping ***** here. Also our retreating fair beats your advancing fair. Unless his fair starts first.

I can't really rebut this other than, it's not that easy. Pit doesn't get free damage nor is it super easy by any means. You need to be careful of his range since it can beat out, or come close to your own range.

Remember Pit's tools, do you think he can keep Lucario in the air and constantly force him into bad situation. I'm well away Uair can beat it out with the right spacing, however that assume Lucario is siting still, he can move left and right at the same time and make it more difficult to get the correct spacing.

I can't say Pit wins at all, he doesn't have enough range to outspace and zone Lucario, His camp game is better but in no way limits his approaching, Pit needs Bair to kill Lucario around the same % Lucario can kill him. There isn't any stage that super favors either character other than 1 for each which gets banned by both parties. Pit is faster overall with his moveset, but Lucario isn't that far behind speed wise, his aerials are mostly what are fast about him, and can out damage him up close if Pit is not careful.

I don't agree with the point about less Risk either, Peach and Jigglypuff can safely poke Lucario pretty well, the reason they both lose is because his range and kill power are enough to punish them hard if they mess up.

Trela does think this is +1 Lucario, it's what he said for the chart, I'm no where near as good as he is and don't have as much experience so I have to say 0 imo. I can't see anything that gives him an advantage on Lucario like Fox, Diddy, Wario, MK, DDD, and Snake have on Lucario.

~

Also stages, Frigate is like by Lucario because most character have issues with recovery and flipping, he can wall cling which makes the negatives for this stage go away.

YI is loved because the layout helps his aerials and makes some of his jab combos legit, Jab Forcepalm is legit when the opponent's feet aren't touching the ground.

Lylat is a good Luc stage in some MU's actually, ask Myth more about this he CPs it more than I do.

 

[Kuro~]

I can't really rebut this other than, it's not that easy. Pit doesn't get free damage nor is it super easy by any means. You need to be careful of his range since it can beat out, or come close to your own range.

Remember Pit's tools, do you think he can keep Lucario in the air and constantly force him into bad situation. I'm well away Uair can beat it out with the right spacing, however that assume Lucario is siting still, he can move left and right at the same time and make it more difficult to get the correct spacing.

I can't say Pit wins at all, he doesn't have enough range to outspace and zone Lucario, His camp game is better but in no way limits his approaching, Pit needs Bair to kill Lucario around the same % Lucario can kill him. There isn't any stage that super favors either character other than 1 for each which gets banned by both parties. Pit is faster overall with his moveset, but Lucario isn't that far behind speed wise, his aerials are mostly what are fast about him, and can out damage him up close if Pit is not careful.

I don't agree with the point about less Risk either, Peach and Jigglypuff can safely poke Lucario pretty well, the reason they both lose is because his range and kill power are enough to punish them hard if they mess up.

Trela does think this is +1 Lucario, it's what he said for the chart, I'm no where near as good as he is and don't have as much experience so I have to say 0 imo. I can't see anything that gives him an advantage on Lucario like Fox, Diddy, Wario, MK, DDD, and Snake have on Lucario.

~

Also stages, Frigate is like by Lucario because most character have issues with recovery and flipping, he can wall cling which makes the negatives for this stage go away.

YI is loved because the layout helps his aerials and makes some of his jab combos legit, Jab Forcepalm is legit when the opponent's feet aren't touching the ground.

Lylat is a good Luc stage in some MU's actually, ask Myth more about this he CPs it more than I do.

Mmk i see what your saying. But i have to disagree. Pit can zone in on lucario and alot of the other cast pretty well. Your really underestimating our moveset. Bar some select characters. I agree we HAVE to work harder for the kill. But from what i've seen it's not that easy for lucy to land a fsmash on pit. Like, at all. Which is why i mentioned that getting pit in the air is the best for lucy imo. Cuz at the same % a fresh uair/bair can be pretty good. Also, as far as the dair thing that's not all we have to punish it. I just used uair as an example to show that we cover that "famous" option quite well compared to most of the cast.

Thanks about the lylat thing, i'll have to see whether it's viable for pit in this mu or not next time i play lucario. And no i don't think "constantly" but i can guarntee you a pit of a certain caliber if he knows lucy's options will be able to get at least 30% in juggles each time. it's just not that hard cuz of upsmash,uair, and baiting. But i do agree the floatiness hinders our abilities to do so. I'm not talking about pokes in particular either though we have an amazing nair and dair for that. Our moves just arent as punishable perse. We're like a mixture of peach, falco, and marth in this mu. We have disjointed range and can zone well, our moves are pretty safe, and we can camp well. So it's like taking a bit of what each excels at and putting it in here. Works out nice for us imo.

 

[Kuro~]

Mmk i see what your saying. But i have to disagree. Pit can zone in on lucario and alot of the other cast pretty well. Your really underestimating our moveset. Bar some select characters. I agree we HAVE to work harder for the kill. But from what i've seen it's not that easy for lucy to land a fsmash on pit. Like, at all. Which is why i mentioned that getting pit in the air is the best for lucy imo. Cuz at the same % a fresh uair/bair can be pretty good. Also, as far as the dair thing that's not all we have to punish it. I just used uair as an example to show that we cover that "famous" option quite well compared to most of the cast.

Thanks about the lylat thing, i'll have to see whether it's viable for pit in this mu or not next time i play lucario. And no i don't think "constantly" but i can guarntee you a pit of a certain caliber if he knows lucy's options will be able to get at least 30% in juggles each time. it's just not that hard cuz of upsmash,uair, and baiting. But i do agree the floatiness hinders our abilities to do so. I'm not talking about pokes in particular either though we have an amazing nair and dair for that. Our moves just arent as punishable perse. We're like a mixture of peach, falco, and marth in this mu. We have disjointed range and can zone well, our moves are pretty safe, and we can camp well. So it's like taking a bit of what each excels at and putting it in here. Works out nice for us imo.

So lucario will generally choose frigate or yoshi's yes?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still don't get where your getting this at least 30% from, if I'm assuming equal skill level Pit shouldn't be able to juggle Lucario that effectively at all. Not even the old vid of Esca had anything like that.

Also you only mentioned Fsmash, what about his other moves? Aura Sphere when not reflected, which is very possible, kills just as well, Uair and bair are pretty good kill moves in the air. Fthrow and Force palm are grabs that kill with aura.

A lot of characters can punish a predicted Dair from Lucario, however the move itself is still a great asset for what it does a frame 4 aerial with a huge hitbox below him.

Can't agree with Pit having an advantage at all still, I just don't see what exactly makes him anything like the six characters I listed before.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

tbh both sides are underestimating the other character's moveset. and on the juggling, we have aimed up arrows, uair, utilt, usmash and dair. and our uthrow does good damage. overall we do have good zoning, but like you said you have aura sphere (but really we should always be ready for that as pit players), bair, force palm. these all kill well with aura. but our fresh dsmash and ftilt have a very outward knockback that doesn't really send you up so much as straight out. and if you get hit with these around 120ish you can't really recover high and this is where we will be getting our gimps and the majority of our kills. idk i couldn't go to sync's tonight but when i do ill try and get some vids vs trela and the next tourney im at ill try and play d. disciple and whatever other lucarios are there. you guys should try to find some good pits to play too (although that may be hard as there are not that many of us.)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I'm limited in that department.

I might come down for a Hobo over the summer if I am lucky though, though I agree there are some issues on both sides with discussing this.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ill play you whenever you come to texas man. hit me up and we'll get some mad games in. and at least one MM so that we have a truly serious vid.

 

[Kuro~]

I still don't get where your getting this at least 30% from, if I'm assuming equal skill level Pit shouldn't be able to juggle Lucario that effectively at all. Not even the old vid of Esca had anything like that.

Also you only mentioned Fsmash, what about his other moves? Aura Sphere when not reflected, which is very possible, kills just as well, Uair and bair are pretty good kill moves in the air. Fthrow and Force palm are grabs that kill with aura.

A lot of characters can punish a predicted Dair from Lucario, however the move itself is still a great asset for what it does a frame 4 aerial with a huge hitbox below him.

Can't agree with Pit having an advantage at all still, I just don't see what exactly makes him anything like the six characters I listed before.

Referencing an old video for evidence isn't really all that good. Ya i agree dair is ****. I love that move. I was simply stating that pit can juggle lucario pretty decently. I'm sorry but in a Bo3 set i see pit getting hit let alone killed by AS like once. Ik the others are viable.

tbh both sides are underestimating the other character's moveset. and on the juggling, we have aimed up arrows, uair, utilt, usmash and dair. and our uthrow does good damage. overall we do have good zoning, but like you said you have aura sphere (but really we should always be ready for that as pit players), bair, force palm. these all kill well with aura. but our fresh dsmash and ftilt have a very outward knockback that doesn't really send you up so much as straight out. and if you get hit with these around 120ish you can't really recover high and this is where we will be getting our gimps and the majority of our kills. idk i couldn't go to sync's tonight but when i do ill try and get some vids vs trela and the next tourney im at ill try and play d. disciple and whatever other lucarios are there. you guys should try to find some good pits to play too (although that may be hard as there are not that many of us.)

^^^^ agree with everything. Again the only reason i think it's in pit's favor is how safe we can be and our disjointed added with arrows. It's a big deal imo cuz pit can't be AS safe against everyone. E.G. marth, falco, diddy, snake. and those are even besides flaco.

Yeah I'm limited in that department.

I might come down for a Hobo over the summer if I am lucky though, though I agree there are some issues on both sides with discussing this.

 

[Esca]

Pit cant really juggle Lucario very well, it's actually vice-versa. Lucario can carry Pit around/off-stage with fair strings and followups, (there's just so many.) If Pit has any solid advantage over Lucario, I think it would be that he can zone/space Lucario out and keep him locked down close quarters. But honestly for the matchup to be near even, the Pit has to be a high level player and have the game down.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

about time you showed up here lol. grrhh go into more detail though man! your the only pit here with long term experiance in this MU.

 

[D Who?]

I'm laughing at this. Kuro, don't you main Falco now? And didn't you CP my Lucario with Snake in a MM?

 

[Kuro~]

I'm laughing at this. Kuro, don't you main Falco now? And didn't you CP my Lucario with Snake in a MM?

Lol 1) i was experimenting with falco gave it up cuz his style of camping is boring 2) that was back in 2010 b4 i was even honestly that into pit and barely if ever used him in tourney 3) you lost.

@Esca Uh you can't throw skill levels into a mu discussion that ruins the whole point cuz it's assuming the players are equal in whatever way possible. I seem to be a minority here so i can settle for even. I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Zulo]

I think what Esca is saying that only in highest-level play, where both players are constantly conscious of spacing and stuff, would Pit's advantageous spacing have enough of an effect in the matchup to make it even.

I don't have much experience in this matchup, but from this thread I'd vote for it being even..

 

[phi1ny3]

I don't think my Pit experience is sufficient because the Pits I've played are either a long time ago (Sagemoon), or don't really play pit (Felix, although iirc he used to). It's pretty even imo, I kill bad Pits but I can see Pit's advantages enough to say that he shouldn't be a slouch. Both hit like a train when the other messes up, I feel Lucario's kill moves are "safer", but they're pretty slow outside of uair and FP. Pit's aerials kinda seem good and meh at the same time, kinda like Lucario's imo. Lucario will probably like YI, CS (I personally like this stage v. Pit for some odd reason, it works fairly well rofl), and maaaaaybe Frigate.

Also, mm at the next tourney we meet at Xcallion?

Pit cant really juggle Lucario very well, it's actually vice-versa. Lucario can carry Pit around/off-stage with fair strings and followups, (there's just so many.) If Pit has any solid advantage over Lucario, I think it would be that he can zone/space Lucario out and keep him locked down close quarters. But honestly for the matchup to be near even, the Pit has to be a high level player and have the game down.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the MU. Pit's aerials are a bit safer and more ideal for keep away in comparison, but Lucario's are great for offense because they cover AD quite well (to give you an idea, one of his more fast-ending aerials, fair, lasts for 14 frames rofl XD), and also decently safe. I think most pits are bad tbh (well I wouldn't say that as much as I would say it's much harder to find a good pit) so its hard to judge the MU on a consistent basis, although Esca has some good exp. against Lucario (Trela and RT)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ya castle siege is not good for pit at all.

 

[phi1ny3]

Protip, if you're gonna try to reflect AS, reflect it when it's being shot while pocketed (basically fully charged), it comes out about frame 20 or so when he has to pull it out (I'd need to look back on what I wrote down, but this is a good estimate), but from the charge stance it's frame 8

Also @ Kuro did you test it on different aura multipliers? One of our testers said that Lucario's dair can get a signficant boost on block when high enough lol.

 

[Kuro~]

Protip, if you're gonna try to reflect AS, reflect it when it's being shot while pocketed (basically fully charged), it comes out about frame 20 or so when he has to pull it out (I'd need to look back on what I wrote down, but this is a good estimate), but from the charge stance it's frame 8

Also @ Kuro did you test it on different aura multipliers? One of our testers said that Lucario's dair can get a signficant boost on block when high enough lol.

Ya but the ending frames are enough that we can always JCUS it.

If it's not pocketed i just PS it. The aurasphere is pretty slow compared to pit's arrows, bananas, lasers, and tjolts.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya but the ending frames are enough that we can always JCUS it.

If it's not pocketed i just PS it. The aurasphere is pretty slow compared to pit's arrows, bananas, lasers, and tjolts.

I see, so when does JC usmash oos come out? Also, what exactly consists of your lucario exp? I wasn't aware any Lucarios aside from D Who existed in FL (and no offense to him, but D Who is far from one of the good lucarios)

Also I remember someone vaguely mentioning Lucario loses a lot of vertical height when choosing to use an aerial offstage, this is very false. Most of Lucario's commonly used aerials offstage end fairly quickly (fair is 27, uair is 38, and dair is 28) minus bair, and Lucario's very, very slow falling (5th floatiest in the game in fact), not to mention dair stall makes him fall EVEN slower (which can be hit by arrows, but that's besides the point) and exists as a good mixup. Lucario actually has a lot of time offstage, just not a lot of super strong options that help him in certain MUs offstage (Marth, MK, etc.)

Lucario definitely doesn't look impressive on paper (in fact, very underwhelming at times for his tier), but he's very good at staying solid in many situations and capitalizing on stuff even top play can't mitigate.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

usmash is frame 6

 

[Esca]

@Esca Uh you can't throw skill levels into a mu discussion that ruins the whole point cuz it's assuming the players are equal in whatever way possible. I seem to be a minority here so i can settle for even. I'm just not seeing it.

Well for example, at low skill level, Pit is probably good against lucario because he can spam smashes. Players don't just button mash at high level so mu's do change by skill level drastically so that's why I'm saying both characters at top level in my examples.

I think what Esca is saying that only in highest-level play, where both players are constantly conscious of spacing and stuff, would Pit's advantageous spacing have enough of an effect in the matchup to make it even.

I don't have much experience in this matchup, but from this thread I'd vote for it being even..

Yeah, thank you for clearing that up. That's exactly what I meant.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the MU. Pit's aerials are a bit safer and more ideal for keep away in comparison, but Lucario's are great for offense because they cover AD quite well (to give you an idea, one of his more fast-ending aerials, fair, lasts for 14 frames rofl XD), and also decently safe. I think most pits are bad tbh (well I wouldn't say that as much as I would say it's much harder to find a good pit) so its hard to judge the MU on a consistent basis, although Esca has some good exp. against Lucario (Trela and RT)

Yeah, there's no room for error on either side of the MU because they both punish well. Also, Pit has to play in a manner that most of the Pit's aren't really used to. You can't just play basic Pit in this matchup because of Lucario's random hitboxes and range.

ya castle siege is not good for pit at all.

It's okay, not terrible but definately not his best.

 

[Kuro~]

I see, so when does JC usmash oos come out? Also, what exactly consists of your lucario exp? I wasn't aware any Lucarios aside from D Who existed in FL (and no offense to him, but D Who is far from one of the good lucarios)

Also I remember someone vaguely mentioning Lucario loses a lot of vertical height when choosing to use an aerial offstage, this is very false. Most of Lucario's commonly used aerials offstage end fairly quickly (fair is 27, uair is 38, and dair is 28) minus bair, and Lucario's very, very slow falling (5th floatiest in the game in fact), not to mention dair stall makes him fall EVEN slower (which can be hit by arrows, but that's besides the point) and exists as a good mixup. Lucario actually has a lot of time offstage, just not a lot of super strong options that help him in certain MUs offstage (Marth, MK, etc.)

Lucario definitely doesn't look impressive on paper (in fact, very underwhelming at times for his tier), but he's very good at staying solid in many situations and capitalizing on stuff even top play can't mitigate.

No i never said that. Xcallion might of but ik that's not true. Ik that helps him alot. Im saying we can still edgeguard him well. I've played $n!p@ and hrbad's lucarios. And a few others that don't post. I'll try to get some new matches vs $n!p@ soon.

 

[Esca]

My Lucario vs Pit MU summary (from MY experience ONLY)

Stage Choice (Ban/Counterpick)​

Battlefield: This is probably my favorite stage for Pit vs Lucario. The stage is small, and the platforms benefit Pit alot more than Lucario. Lucario cannot wall cling on this stage or Smashville, so you don't have to worry about an additional recovery option. I would recommend staying under the two platforms on either side. Be weary of his obvious dairs, and make sure you get a hard punish everytime he gets on a platform. If Lucario is on the ledge, don't jump after him, there's no need to go for unnecessary gimps. There are two flashing circles on the left AND right side of Battlefield, about two Bowser lengths away from the ledge. Stay there and you're in the safe zone. You won't get hit from him getting back on stage, however you're close enough to make a punish. The top platform is useful on this stage if you have a lead, because Lucario only has one move that can hit upward. Bait and dair him.

Pit vs Lucario on BF = 55:45 Pit's favor.

Smashville: The moving platform is a changing factor in this match. If you're going with the momentum of the platform, you can fthrow CG lucario to 36% then Fsmash him at the end. You can mix up with DA as well. I can't stress enough how good this platform is against Lucario. We have arrows and we really need to utilize our aerial mobility. The platform stays moving so it's constantly resetting the situation, which is excellent in Pit vs Lucario because Pit is good at poking and Lucario needs to string attacks. Arrows are really decent on this stage just because it's a decently sized straight stage. I don't think arrows are necessarily too effective against Lucario in the air, but on the ground definately. This stage is really basic, but I think it changes the ratio in Pit's favor.

Pit vs Lucario on SV = 55:45 Pit's favor.

Final Destination: In my opinion, this is what you should strike first against Lucario mains. They want you to take them here. Lucario lives forever on this stage, and he has unlimited freedom to dair his *** off. He can wall cling just incase, which you should NEVER let happen to begin with. IF you get taken to FD, I'd suggest camping my complete *** off. Do NOT let him get near you and make sure to frustrate. You need to make sure your kill moves are fresh for when you need to kill him. Don't fsmash/Dsmash from 80-140%. Don't land near him. He's probably trying to bait you for an fsmash. This stage has no platforms so it's not good to airdodge in as an approach/follow-up.

Pit vs Lucario on FD = 6:4 Lucario's favor.

ALL OTHER STAGES SUCK

Moveset (Which to use/not use)​

I'm gonna list from 1-4 on how much I use each move in Pit vs Lucario. I'm lazy, and this will give you sort of an idea of which moves work best, or which you should slim on using.

1 being used little to none.
4 being most used.

Fsmash - 4
Usmash - 3
Dsmash - 4
Fair - 2
Nair - 1
Dair - 3
Uair - 4
Bair - 2
Jab - 4
Ftilt - 3
Dtilt - 2
Utilt - 4

Things to Remember:​

Roll a little more than normal. Charge arrows about the length of time a spotdodge lasts. Look out for Lucario's rolls, bait him and be ready to punish. Shield both hits of dair. Don't attack with aggression unless your mixing up, you should never attack first. Make sure to get the kill early, you don't need to be playing with fire (aura). Weak hit of bair gimps. Your dash attack is good. Mirror shield the aura sphere.

I'm done, lol. I'm too high for this ****.

 

[phi1ny3]

No i never said that. Xcallion might of but ik that's not true. Ik that helps him alot. Im saying we can still edgeguard him well. I've played $n!p@ and hrbad's lucarios. And a few others that don't post. I'll try to get some new matches vs $n!p@ soon.

Yeah, I didn't say it was you directly, but someone mentioned it, now that I think about it, it was probably Xcallion. Either way not an attack, just meant to clarify a misunderstanding.

 

[Kuro~]

Yeah, I didn't say it was you directly, but someone mentioned it, now that I think about it, it was probably Xcallion. Either way not an attack, just meant to clarify a misunderstanding.

Ik you weren't. I was just saying i agree.


@Esca thanks man. I appreciate the write-up

 

[Xcallion]

@phi1ny3 a MM sounds like fun. you'll have to remind me though and we should play it on a hacked wii so one of us can save the replays.

And, yeah that was me who thought that lucario lost a good amount of height when he uses aerial. i guess i was mistake, my bad.

 

[Kuro~]

@phi1ny3 a MM sounds like fun. you'll have to remind me though and we should play it on a hacked wii so one of us can save the replays.

And, yeah that was me who thought that lucario lost a good amount of height when he uses aerial. i guess i was mistake, my bad.

SHAAAAAAAAAAAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you should xcal. We need to critique you so you can be at least b tier

 

[Xcallion]

sorry i havent been getting replays recently. I intend to bring MY wii to the next tourney i go to so i can get something recorded. All of my good games these days are too long and on non-hacked wiis. -.- I assure you that i'm a lot better than the replays i have up right now on YT would indicate.

 

[Kuro~]

Here are the proving grounds waiting for you


OK GUYS I THINK WE GOT ENOUGH INFO ON REGULAR SHIZ. NOW WE NEED TO TALK EXACTLY WHERE WE SHOULD TAKE LUCY AND WHY!!!!

The lucarios thus far have stated rainbow would be legit if they don't' ban it. But what else? I mentioned brinstar being legit for us too. What else do you guys think? I'd be scared of halberd for several reasons.

 

[Xcallion]

obviously ban YI and they will ban RC.
For the nuetrals i think lylat would be a good choice as lucario's aura sphere can hit the tilted ground, he has no wallclimbing there and it doesnt impede our recovery or projectile. Failing that i would rather go BF than FD and i'd rather go SV than BF although none of these are too bad for us(aside from luc living for forever on FD).
I dont think brinstar would be the best place to take them due to the Flesh Bubbles extending their already good hitboxes, lava could save them from gimps and camping by the Flesh Strings could result in an early f-smash kill by lucario or a fair string from lucario.