Edgeophobia - A question regarding the sm4sh community's lack of edgeguarding.

[Green Zelda]

Buenas tardes, amigos! (unless you're in a different timezone, heh) I've been watching
many different tournament streams lately, in order to improve. The people there are (usually)
really good, but there's one thing I've noticed; they almost never go for edgeguards. It
didn't really disturb me too much until I saw a match between a and a . They were
at even stock and at high percents, and (sorry, I don't know how to describe this properly, but)
the fair-ed the while he was trying to up b. The could have easily done one more
fair, but instead stood at the ledge and got "B33P B00P"ed. Even the commentators were
confused, questioning why the didn't try and stop the.

Is there a particular reason why people don't like to edgeguard others? Is it too dangerous,
even for a character like villager trying to gimp a rob?

 

[GeflGabe]

Maybe it risk chances of being dodged then having the opponent retaliate. I often fear this on FG and any matches against another player a lot myself. But when a R.O.B is using their usually defenseless, so at this scenerio I too do not see why the Lucina did not go for the F-air. Perhaps because of this "edgephobia" you speak of or maybe the Lucina player had a plan to catch him off guard as he was back on the stage. As a Marth main I truly cannot comprehend what would have caused this missed chance for a free attack but I can only theorize what happened. As for anyone else I see most people online seem to be edge guarding on ground rather than going off stage and preventing recovery. As you say it is probably the risk and the danger of a brutal punish after missing a attack.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Edge-guarding can be rather risky for some fighters. If they're on the ground that's one thing, but jumping off-stage to edge-guard can potentially hurt you if the opponent dodges your attack, or you mistime your attack. And of course, you have to be weary of Counter users.

Another thing that should be noted is that if you know that your opponent isn't going to recover, don't bother trying to add insult to injury.

 

[ArikadoSD]

It's not really "danger" as much as it is giving up stage control. Have you ever wondered why ZeRo never goes off stage even though he can? Why he doesn't use bouncing fish at the end of a fair chain that got him and his opponent off stage, because if it hits its a free 12%, but if it doesn't, then Sheik can make it back anyway? The answer is simple, it's stage control. ZeRo would go for the fair planes and maybe end it with a nair or a fair then quickly go back on stage and capitalize on his opponents being off-stage and try to keep them there by covering their options and tacking up more damage.

That being said, stage control is way more important in sm4sh than it is in other smash games because in sm4sh literally everyone except a certain very few amount of characters have amazing recoveries that can pretty much always make it back from anywhere. Because of that, and the lack of edge hogging, capitalizing on people's recoveries and gimping them for the stock is extremely difficult in this game, so a lot of players prefer having stage control to get as much as possible out of putting opponents in a bad spot.

Don't get me wrong edgeguarding is still very possible and sometimes it is the better option but it's way harder and stage control gives way more consistent and safer results, especially considering if a character CAN go off stage and actually does, then they give up all stage positioning and if somehow the other character makes it back on stage first, then the tables have turned and that's a very bad spot to be in.

 

[Machii]

Edge-guarding can be rather risky for some fighters. If they're on the ground that's one thing, but jumping off-stage to edge-guard can potentially hurt you if the opponent dodges your attack, or you mistime your attack. And of course, you have to be weary of Counter users.

Another thing that should be noted is that if you know that your opponent isn't going to recover, don't bother trying to add insult to injury.

Were you just playing For Glory an hour ago?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Were you just playing For Glory an hour ago?

I don't know if that's meant to be insulting, but no.

 

[TurboLink]

I see it as laziness/cowardliness. You know something's wrong when you use a character with some of the best edgeguarding tools in the game and instead of doing something decide to sit on your ass and let the opponent recover for free.

Too many times have I seen a Sheik player let someone recover for free.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I see it as laziness/cowardliness. You know something's wrong when you use a character with some of the best edgeguarding tools in the game and instead of doing something decide to sit on your *** and let the opponent recover for free.

Too many times have I seen a Sheik player let someone recover for free.

That's straight up ignorance mate, read my post

 

[Deleted member 269706]

As someone who goes offstage way more than I should, I think one reason edge-guarding doesn't have very much implementation is because most recoveries are pretty broken and automatically snap the ledge, usually while throwing out a hitbox. If you go offstage and try and punish someone and they get to the ledge before you hit them, you're in a disadvantageous position. Similarly, many players can airdodge most attacks, and still be able to recover from very, very low. Now I love going offstage, and honestly, I don't get punished for it all too much, but at the same time, only so many of my edge-guards actually work. I think a lot of people have this problem and when something doesn't work, they tend to avoid doing it. Similarly, people aren't comfortable being offstage, so when they could go for another attack, they just don't because they're scared that they won't make it back. When people start working on their walljumps, saving double jumps, understanding how far their character's up B can reach, and so on, I think we'll see a lot more offstage play.

 

[TurboLink]

That's straight up ignorance mate, read my post

It's not ignorance and I don't care about your post. Taking a stock early from edgeguarding is more than worth the risk.

Especially with a character like Sheik who has the closest thing to a perfect recovery, with good air speed, the best wall jump, Bouncing Fish, good jump height, and whatever else I didn't add to this list.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's mostly a trickle down from how the best characters are basically impossible to gimp, IMO. Since Cloud's on the rise we'll probably be seeing more edge play soon.

 

[Xermo]

Depends on the character and positioning honestly. Only a handful of characters are actually good at edge guarding or have the proper tools to do so. Similarly, not too many characters have free recoveries to be exploited.

Of course, I don't have to risk going offstage at all and can set up kills from thunder.

 

[MockRock]

Smash 4's edgeguarding is riskier than in other games, and also isn't as necessary to a character's success. Fox, for example, is a very high tier character, but you will pretty much never see him go for an edgeguard because he doesn't have the tools. Villager, on the other hand, has a phenomenal edgeguard game, but it's merely a small part of his game plan, not the cornerstone of it. Generally, characters in this game still expose themselves when going for an edgeguard like in past games, but there's less payoff on average than there has been in the past. For the game you watched, though, it sounds like that was probably just a poor decision on the player's part.

 

[_JL_]

It's not ignorance and I don't care about your post. Taking a stock early from edgeguarding is more than worth the risk.

Especially with a character like Sheik who has the closest thing to a perfect recovery, with good air speed, the best wall jump, Bouncing Fish, good jump height, and whatever else I didn't add to this list.

I see your post as laziness/cowardliness. You know something's wrong when you ignore a user with some of the best advice/knowledge on the site and instead of replying intelligently decide to sit on your *** and let yourself look like a fool for free.

 

[TurboLink]

I see your post as laziness/cowardliness. You know something's wrong when you ignore a user with some of the best advice/knowledge on the site and instead of replying intelligently decide to sit on your *** and let yourself look like a fool for free.

Whether that user offers good advice or not is subjective. Regardless I could honestly give a ****. He should've kept his mouth and opinion to himself. Just like you should have. You've both made yourselves look like idiots.

When people start working on their walljumps, saving double jumps, understanding how far their character's up B can reach, and so on, I think we'll see a lot more offstage play.

This game has already been out for at least a year, don't you think most people already know all this?

 

[_JL_]

Whether that user offers good advice or not is subjective. Regardless I could honestly give a ****. He should've kept his mouth and opinion to himself. Just like you should have. You've both made yourselves look like idiots.

It's not subjective and I don't care about your post. Taking a insult from a smashboards post is more than worth the risk.

Especially with a user like you who has the closest thing to a 0 IQ. with bad advice, no experience, no skill, no insight, and whatever else I didn't add to this list.

 

[Green Zelda]

Hey guys, I'm not trying to be rude, but a lot of people have been making very informative
posts on this thread so far, and it's REALLY helping out my villager play. Sorry, but please
don't start a flame war, because a mod might lock this thread (and that would be bad!)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's not subjective and I don't care about your post. Taking a insult from a smashboards post is more than worth the risk.

Especially with a user like you who has the closest thing to a 0 IQ. with bad advice, no experience, no skill, no insight, and whatever else I didn't add to this list.

What you're saying is not nice at all. Please do not flame other users like that.

 

[LancerStaff]

This game has already been out for at least a year, don't you think most people already know all this?

Metagame progress is a slow thing. For a long time people just willingly walked up to characters like Luigi and Ryu when keepaway is optimal... And don't get me started with people's stage picks.

 

[Gotmilk0112]

But when a R.O.B is using their usually defenseless, so at this scenerio I too do not see why the Lucina did not go for the F-air.

Not really, seeing as ROB can use any aerial out of his recovery. I often catch people with up-airs or forward airs when they try to edgeguard me.

 

[Green Zelda]

Not really, seeing as ROB can use any aerial out of his recovery. I often catch people with up-airs or forward airs when they try to edgeguard me.

Wow, I didn't know this! (but the ROB was really, really low on fuel and barely made it back to the ledge. I think that, if he did go for an aerial, he would have SD'ed)

 

[Fluorescent]

It's all about the mindset I guess. I play a lot of Toon Link so I tend to stay on the side of the ledge just to pull out a bomb after my opponent gets knocked back off the stage. Sometimes, they recover really fast enough and by the time I get the bomb out they're already hanging from the edge and I need to read their getup option. The only advantageous thing happening here is that I have a bomb in my hand which if I read correctly, can get a better result from not edguarding and maintaining the ledge (stage control) other than go deep for a F-air. It was debatable which option was best but they both could've produced good potential results.

The only time when I wouldn't wanna edgeguard is if I know that the opponent can possibly air dodge my attack and or anticipate it (which can lead to a gimp or potentially; a stock) or that I'm not confident in myself to try for it then I obviously wouldn't go for it.

 

[Axel311]

Combination of so many characters having amazing recoveries with hitboxes and SDing being such a disaster in a 2 stock meta. The risk/reward ratio doesn't favor going for edgeguards as much as in other games, for a lot of characters. You risk getting footstooled or punished and dying because of it. There's several exceptions for characters with good offstage tools and top recoveries.

If you think top players don't edgeguard though watch this ESAM/RIN set from Genesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lbu22fMaRI

ESAM goes nuts with his edgeguarding here.

 

[Darklink401]

Give it a year or two. The game is still pretty new and people are still getting used to the ledge mechanics. I for one edgeguard all the time. Mii Swordfighter and Villager are both great at edgeguarding, and if the opponent is offstage, I see no reason not to try and edgeguard offstage, as long as you know you can still gain back advantageous position if you miss.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main thing to always keep in mind is that messing up your off-stage edge-guarding options could end up putting you at a disadvantaged state, as ArikadoSD has already pointed out.

 

[MarMarTheGreat]

Depends on who you are using and how predictable opponents recovery is

I can edgeguard fine with Marth and Falco

But other characters its too risky

 

[Gotmilk0112]

Wow, I didn't know this! (but the ROB was really, really low on fuel and barely made it back to the ledge. I think that, if he did go for an aerial, he would have SD'ed)

Yeah, often times as ROB, if someone is trying to hit you from the ledge, you can up-b to just beneath the ledge and up-air them through the floor.

 

[Zeth444]

I have been observing a huge decrease of egdephobia from high-top level players.
Just watch Shots Fired 2 and you shall see it too.
Since top 16 (top 32 actually), there are some truely AMAZING egdeguards.

Exemple:

Spoiler: Mew2King X Nairo

 

[Green L]

I think the ledge system is fine in sm4sh it's just most people want such a high reward for low risk. Edgehogging didn't require you to interact with your opponent. Just grab the ledge before them and they fall to their doom. Smash 4 allows more skill and risk required to take a stock early from edgeguarding properly. I'd say the reward is still there but it's it's not little mac, expect most people to twiddle their thumbs and watch the opponent recover for free. Most recoveries aren't that good, they just require more effort to intercept

 

[Lime Cultivist]

It depends on the characters recovering and edge guarding. I'm still confused by the choice in ledge mechanics of this game, but it does make you work hard for most edge guards since an opponent can take so many hits...

 

[Green Zelda]

So basically, when your opponent is knocked offstage, you have 2 options to consider:

Chasing them offstage to attempt to gimp/edgeguard them.

Maintaining stage control.

Based on the replies here, the latter is (aparently) typically a better choice than the former, because it's safer. But wouldn't it be a good idea to try and go for an edgeguard once in a while? If you suddenly do it completely randomly, wouldn't it catch your opponents offguard, potentially leading to a KO?

 

[KashKey]

Since I tend to play heavy characters with crap recovery, I'm going to attempt to throw a bit of insight into this, "Edgephobia" mentality. While I do go for edge guards as lighter characters, they tend to not hit in the first place, but that's just me being bad. For me, when playing someone like Bowser and Little Mac, hell, even Ganondorf, and I find that while on the stage, you have more options for keeping someone off the stage than while off. If they recover high, you can easily punish them by jumping into a fair, nair, or up air. And if they recover via they ledge, you can cover those as well. With an attack, you can shield into a smash with the faster characters, and the slower ones shield into a grab. Easily punishing them , and forcing them back off stage. If they jump, just follow my above advice. And if they roll, well, just punish how you normally would. It's just easier to punish them when they are near the stage, than when you're both off the stage. However, there are times when going off the edge, are affective, but that's prefered with characters that can cover more area. If you mess up an edge guard, you're automatically at a disadvantageous position, and you put yourself there, likely resulting in death.

 

[Routa]

I would not call it "Edgephobia" (lel dat word). There are simply characters who don't simply have a good edgeguarding game. Also I want to point out that there are 3 types of edgeguarding: On-stage, Off-stage and Deep edgeguarding. Some characters are better at On-stage edgeguarding (for example Ike and Little Mac) while some are better at off-stage edgeguarding (for example Marth and Swordfighter) and then there are characters that can go really deep and still make it back (for example Pit(s) and Meta Knight). Along with thous there is the personal preference. I personally know a Ike main who loves to go off-stage even if it very dangerous. Why? Because he can. It mostly comes down character + playstyle combination.

 

[[BROF]]

Edgeguarding is extremely weak in this game due to recoveries being extremely good for most characters, the concept of ledgehogging being replaced by Ledge trump, and good old MAGNET HANDS. Gotta love the magnet hands.

As the meta develops I can see players going out there more often, as the on-stage game is being developed way faster than the off-stage one.

 

[Green L]

Edgeguarding is extremely weak in this game due to recoveries being extremely good for most characters, the concept of ledgehogging being replaced by Ledge trump, and good old MAGNET HANDS. Gotta love the magnet hands.

Most recoveries are not that good as MOST of them can be intercepted. Take pit for example. His up b goes really far but it has no hitbox. Its basically free damage during pits recovery. If you don't commit to edgeguarding then of course recoveries are free since you are LETTING them come back. This is the player's fault, not the game.

 

[KashKey]

Most recoveries are not that good as MOST of them can be intercepted. Take pit for example. His up b goes really far but it has no hitbox. Its basically free damage during pits recovery. If you don't commit to edgeguarding then of course recoveries are free since you are LETTING them come back. This is the player's fault, not the game.

That doesn't change the fact that edge guarding is still much harder to do in this game. As he said, most recoveries are extremely good, hell even Captain Falcon, a character that usually has a much harder time recovering, is able to much easier in this game. Edge guarding is extremely difficult in this game as well, again, because it is so much easier to recover. Pit's Up B doesn't just go far, it goes FAST, good luck edge guarding that if they don't go high. Not to mention air combat is much more viable in this game, and is a good portion of the combat, as both combatants are able to repeatedly trade blows with next to no punishment, because of how powerful air dodging is. It is so much harder to edge guard in this game, and as a result it is much weaker, and less viable.

 

[Denjinpachi]

It would mostly seem to be one of those "Why do this when I can do this?" type of situations. I wouldn't risk an edge guard if the games designed to let me make smarter safer decisions either. This however, is just speaking of smash 4. forgiving ledge magnets all around, and a well above average recovery on a lot of the viable characters in the cast, so it makes sense that theres been a more stage based kill game, than an offstage one developed.

 

[Ralugi]

Edge guarding is awesome. Great way to not only take stock, but get your oponent a high percentage. There are moments when you can use stage control against your opponent. They expect you to roll on the stage, you catch them off guard with a jump followed by an aerial, getting a punish from a missed read. Mix ups are an integral part of Smash, and edge guarding is a fine example of this principle.