Edgeguarding w/ Cloud

[SparkSubmarine]

Recently, I've been trying to get into as a secondary for . Since I'm so used to going offstage to edgeguard, I was wondering how to edgeguard either offstage or onstage. Any mains out there that can help me?

 

[DaDavid]

Off stage for sure. You can stay onstage and spam Blade Beam but you won't get much if any mileage out of that. Best (imo) options are nair and bair. Limit Cross Slash towards the stage is also a really solid option on opponents trying to recover low.

 

[Jaku618]

A mixture of both usually using one over the other depending on the match up.
Blade beam,Dtilt,Ftilt,Fsmash,Dsmash when your onstage.
When it comes to offstage all your aerial are useful for certain situtaions like Nair and Bair for gimps,Dair and Fair to spike,even Upair to catch foes offstage trying to land,LCS,LBB(on the ledge to catch 2 frame).

 

[GHNeko]

Use Bladebeam on stage to force your opponent to airdodge or something like that.

Then run off Nair.

That's the simplest thing for you to learn.

After that, you can learn to 2 frame opponents with Dash Attack, Dair, and Dtilt.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

lots of things to do here
its all about frame traps and reducing options, and applying pressure. enemies have lots of options while recovering as well, but generally more pressure is on them.



-onstage bladebeam is good. forces them low often. then you can do other aerials depending. nair is generally good.

-bair is good for vertical unprotected recoveries like little mac. hit them from the side behind them

-a good technique if they're going low is to auto-snap the ledge ledge drop doublejump dair. this can hit the "snap back" two frame ledge snap window. and you can DI back onstage so you don't lose stage control. this can spike. not always though. have to do it right.

-auto-snap-ledge drop-off dj nair

-you can get 3 nairs offstage. fh nair nair dj nair upB

-try to force airdodges with empty proximity etc. mixups etc .

-you can also use the OneSmash tech "slip edge" for some good stuff like dair, nair, limitCrossSlash. wanna explore this more.

-limit blade beam shot at the ledge kills people if they touch it generally. use B reverse or RAR to achieve this. safe and effective in some situations. wanna lab this more.

-limitCrossClash offstage towards the ledge catches the snap back window very well. tech-able but good.

-limit cross slash can cover airdodge option. if you read for an airdodge, aim a bit below them and LCS. last hit has all the knockback so if you're in kill range you're good. and it kills very early near the margins of course.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm not too comfy with off-stage edge-guarding whenever I use Cloud, simply because of his poor recovery without Limit Break. Limit Break boosted Blade Beam may have its uses as an edge-guarding tool, but you need to be careful that the attack doesn't whiff, or else you'll have to recharge Limit Break all over again.

 

[-m0]

Literally just runoff nair, fair and blade beam

Don't stray too far off tho or they'll aerial you on your way back and you die

 

[SparkSubmarine]

Thanks guys! I feel this will help improve my play a whole lot! If possible I usually drop down Nair or dair or even fair to hit them away hoping they miss a tech.

 

[-m0]

I've never survived a drop ledge dair. Are you talking about drop ledge -> DJ -> dair? That's recoverable if you're quick

 

[~Skelly~]

Late reply.
I usually stick to the edge and keep them off that way because, without Limit, I don't want to risk losing my own stock because of Cloud's subpar recovery. I do go offstage if I can recover and use the aformentioned Nair and Dair shenanigans when I can. I also use LB CS to wall predictable recoveries or while facing the stage to catch low recoveries.

 

[Mileo279]

If this counts then I stay on stage and just read get ups wit grab, Nair, and limit side b

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I've never survived a drop ledge dair. Are you talking about drop ledge -> DJ -> dair? That's recoverable if you're quick

u talking to me? i said doublejump.

 

[Zetox]

Use Bladebeam on stage to force your opponent to airdodge or something like that.

Then run off Nair.

That's the simplest thing for you to learn.

After that, you can learn to 2 frame opponents with Dash Attack, Dair, and Dtilt.

Wasn't it 3 frames? I always thought there was a 3 frame window

 

[GHNeko]

I was under the impression that its a 2 frame window.

I've only heard "2 frame" as a phrase on basically every stream.

 

[Zetox]

Ahh okay, I'm not entirely sure as I don't recall the last time I hear it on stream so you are probably right.

 

[-m0]

u talking to me? i said doublejump.

No sir i was not

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

a fantastic option i was just labing:

-> Run off ledge
-> Fast fall
-> Double jump (quickly)
-> Nair
-> Auto-snap upB

so this nair is the perfect spacing to catch tons of recoveries, and the disjoint is long enough to beat many of them. but the best part is it allows you to

-> Drop ledge
-> Double jump
-> Nair
-> Auto-snap UpB
-> Repeat

and you just do this until they're dead. you can kill falcon at 20% with this. etc. this nair hits from behind so like frame 5. fast. and if the first hit doesn't connect, it will wrap around and hit them with the late hit. so its decently lenient timing. you can also replace Nair with Bair or Dair if appropriate. Bair allows another Auto-snap, Dair no, it should be final.

 

[GHNeko]

You're burning your double jump that so that carries hella risks.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

You're burning your double jump that so that carries hella risks.

its not that risky because nair has so much disjoint and because you're staying close to the ledge and auto-snapping it. you can see zero empty-threatening this option with his cloud on youtube. he runs off, fastfall, dj back on stage. then he actually uses it etc.

this option is so good you can do it on reaction, it doesn't require reading in most circumstances.
best post in here tbh. bread and butter that no one uses. future cloud meta. its like melee marth fair.

in many MU's its simply guaranteed on low recoveries such as falcon and rosa.

 

[GHNeko]

I mean you're right. I was just noting that comming to burning your DJ is inherently riskier than saving it. You didnt touch on it.

Screwing it up is more costly than something just as safe as falling off with a timed nair and using your dj as needed afterwards.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I mean you're right. I was just noting that comming to burning your DJ is inherently riskier than saving it. You didnt touch on it.

Screwing it up is more costly than something just as safe as falling off with a timed nair and using your dj as needed afterwards.

its safer than that run off maneuver. because with that maneuver have to use upB and you can get gimped or lose stage control. this option allows you to stay closer to the ledge and auto-snap. and its not hard either. and if you miss the snap window you still have normal upB. its safer in most any low-recovery case i can think of

 

[GHNeko]

Hmmm. I dunno. I feel like screwing up an edgeguard that burns your DJ at the start is not inherently as safe.

I mean your theory is sound, buuuuuuut...

It's only sound if you get the edgeguard. I'm not convienced that its less risky if you **** up the edgeguard when you can achieve basically near the same effectiveness with a well-timed run off nair or jump off nair.

 

[-m0]

What about walljump nair

 

[GHNeko]

That's if you have access to a walled stage.

It's solid, but unless you're good at wall jumps from the ledge, its takes some time to setup and that can be a huge tell to your opponent.

 

[-m0]

but with bidou, you can walljump from the ledge quickly and consistently

 

[GHNeko]

boy if you dont get this bidou out my face...



I do think that bidou would make it a lot easier lol.

 

[-m0]

but it's so good

it will redefine the meta

it's the new wavedash!!!!!1!

 

[~Skelly~]

but it's so good

it will redefine the meta

it's the new wavedash!!!!!1!

Now.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Hmmm. I dunno. I feel like screwing up an edgeguard that burns your DJ at the start is not inherently as safe.

I mean your theory is sound, buuuuuuut...

It's only sound if you get the edgeguard. I'm not convienced that its less risky if you **** up the edgeguard when you can achieve basically near the same effectiveness with a well-timed run off nair or jump off nair.

ur just wrong lol
with this one you literally can dj back onstage while nairing. the auto-snap is just for positioning to continue the gimp. you need to see it in action or try it.
its way safer than using upB

 

[GHNeko]

ur just wrong lol
with this one you literally can dj back onstage while nairing. the auto-snap is just for positioning to continue the gimp. you need to see it in action or try it.
its way safer than using upB

I mean, you can say I'm wrong but that doesnt really convince me.

and run off/jump off nair doesnt force you to use your up b either, unless you **** up the timing or go too deep.

My stance is that I fail to see how run off, fall fall, dj nair is less risky than run off/jump off nair.

You're literally burning your dj before you attack. One mistake and you're in a far worse position than if you saved your DJ.

LIke I know how DJ Nair works, I do it myself. What I dont do is use it over fall off/jump off nair because if you know how to edgeguard with nair, the you ultimately get the same results and similar coverage without having to burn your double jump.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

word yeah. decent points. i think you'll come around to my strat as very useful though. let my try to explain why.

run-off nair
advantages
- fast ish, surprising ish
- nair has a big disjoint
- gets at a semi surprising off stage location
- can follow up with dj nair
disadvantages
- requires dj upB afterwords (exposed to getting hit)
- highly committal, location wise
- lose stage and ledge control if you miss your hit
- location wise actually pretty bad at catching lots of basic recovery maneuvers (especially with serious players)
- if it happens to be good in a MU, its easy to adapt to because its so limited in mobility and timing.
- pretty popular and expected

jump-off nair
advantages
- sh or fh option
- horizontal maneuverability
- less deep positional commitment
- good angle coverage
- upB not necessarily required
- save DJ
disadvantages
- slower, react-able

my ff dj maneuver
run-off (or jump-off) immediate-ff quickly-dj nair
- auto-snap
or
- DI back on stage.
advantages
- gets between opponent and the ledge very quickly. fast and surprising.
- the disjoint of nair is pretty perfect for the location of this maneuver. you just get between them and the ledge from almost all angles.
- if you hit them, both of these ending options set up for more reactive gimping (cloud's amazing drop-ledge options or jump/run-offs)
- with the auto-snap you dont risk getting gimped because you snap ledge, and if you miss the nair you may get a ledge trump.
- with DI-back-on-stage, you land on stage and lose zero stage control. nice non-commital threat.
- its not used very much and so people will not know how to deal with it
- you can empty-threaten it for mindgames (no nair)
- if the opponent has used their jump, its guaranteed on a low recovery if your nair disjoint is longer.
- the look of the ff dj is fast and intimidating. it looks complex which encourages people to give up and get hit.
disadvantages
- no dj if you get hit. so its best used on characters where you're confident that the disjoint of nair will beat their recovery option. nair is huge so its very applicable. the challenge is to connect with nair or safely miss. which is pretty easy if you're doing it right.


i snapped lol
i need a hobby

 

[GHNeko]

nah you fine fam. this is just a discussion.

I see your points and i agree with some of them. I'll just have to start using it more to see if I'll truly come around to it.

And you dont need to DJ Up B for Run Off Nair lol.

Also you forgot to list that with jumping off stage for nair, you can RAR the nair so you can hit with the frame 5 part of nair for even quicker edgeguards. So it's basically the fastest option out of the 3.