Edgeguarding Captain Falcon

[DD151]

Preface

Captain Falcon is a matchup that Yoshi supposedly struggles against - aMSa lists him as Yoshi's 3rd worst matchup, with an estimated win/loss ratio of 3.75/6.25 assuming equally skilled players. As Laudandus explained in his Sheik vs. C. Falcon tutorial video, C. Falcon can Air Wobble into Rest from a grab on Sheik, and Yoshi generally suffers the same fate if he is caught in the same situation. With his high ground and aerial speed, C. Falcon dominates the neutral game and he can easily convert that advantage into a heavy punish.

C. Falcon's largest weakness is his poor recovery. Many high level players assert that he should never return to the stage and regain neutral position once knocked away. Short of unexpected innovations in Yoshi's neutral game, I think that edgeguard optimization is his best bet at attempting to swing the matchup in his favor. I decided to comb through videos between good players playing this matchup and figure out Yoshi's best edgeguard options and also some bad edgeguarding habits.

My philosophy is that if C. Falcon cannot return to the stage using only his double jump, then he should never return to the stage and regain neutral position. Realistically, a human Yoshi player won't have 100% edgeguard efficiency, but I think that this is still a good philosophy to abide by. My ultimate objective with this thread is to develop an edgeguard flowchart vs. C. Falcon that is applicable in almost every single situation where Yoshi has the potential to convert an edgeguard into a KO.

Analysis

I analyzed 5 sets of aMSa's Yoshi and 2 sets of V3ctorman's Yoshi. In every set, I marked the timestamps at which Yoshi knocks C. Falcon off the stage and gains a potential edgeguard. Edgeguards are color coded into 3 categories:

Green denotes a successful edgeguard. A successful edgeguard either KOs C. Falcon or sets up another edgeguard opportunity.
Red denotes a dropped edgeguard. A dropped edgeguard lets C. Falcon grab the edge or return to the stage and act out of landing lag.
Yellow denotes an sub-optimal edgeguard. A sub-optimal edgeguard either is a punish that does not set up another edgeguard opportunity or an attack that hits C. Falcon the wrong way.

Battle Gateway 7 WF Gucci vs. aMSa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn6ULfgAdJk

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
0:09 – D-tilt 14%. Gucci recovers low with DJ, grabs edge. aMSa does FJ off-stage.
0:51 – D-smash 89%. Gucci recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage phasing through platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog and empty edgehops back onto stage.
1:08 – N-air 133%. Gucci recovers low with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does down-B edgehog and then edge stand into SH N-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
1:12 – N-air 147%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog hit confirm into edge stand and SH N-air for KO.
1:58 – N-air 64%. Gucci attempts to recover low with DJ, aiming for edge. aMSa does up-B edgehog. Gucci attempts to recover low with reverse up-B but gets hit by egg into stage spike for KO.
2:59 – N-air 89%. Gucci attempts to recover high with DJ. aMSa intercepts Gucci with up-B edgehog. Gucci recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage phasing through platform. aMSa does up-B edge stall twice and edgehop wavelands onto side platform.

Result: Gucci W, 1 stock 35%
3 successful, 3 dropped
Comments: 0:09 should have done RDJ instant edgehog to force up-B. 0:51 up-B edgehog was unnecessary. 2:59 up-B edge stalls were unnecessary.

Game 2: Yoshi’s Story
5:13 – N-air 130%. Gucci attempts to recover high with DJ, aiming on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog hit confirm into edgehop N-air for KO.
5:32 – N-air 82%. Gucci attempts to recover low with DJ, lands on Randall. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then edge stand.
5:42 – N-air 96%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa intercepts Gucci with up-B edgehog and then does edge stand.
5:46 – N-air 115%. Gucci attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog, up-B edge stall, and then hits with edgehop N-air. Gucci gets saved by an egg. aMSa intercepts Gucci with SH B-air and does down-B edgehog followed by up-B edge stall. Gucci grabs edge with up-B during aMSa’s up-B edge stall, resulting in SD.
6:10 – D-tilt 26%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B. aMSa intercepts Gucci with SH D-air and DJs back on-stage. Gucci meteor cancels and grabs edge with up-B.
6:18 – N-air 74%. Gucci attempts to recover high with DJ. aMSa does up-B edgehog hit confirm into edgehop N-air. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edge stall twice and hit confirms into attempted edgehop N-air. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa hits Gucci with D-smash for KO.

Result: Gucci W, 1 stock 60%
2 successful, 4 dropped
Comments: 5:32 correct decision, but Randall luck. 5:42 should have reacted better vs. up-B. 5:46 up-B edge stalls were unnecessary. 6:10 should have stayed on-stage.

Game 3: Yoshi’s Story
8:24 – D-smash 101%. Gucci attempts recover mid with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog for KO.
9:00 – D-smash 65%. Gucci attempts to recover high with DJ, aiming for platform. aMSa stands on platform, hitting Gucci with reversed D-smash.

Result: Gucci W, 2 stock 93%
1 successful, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 9:00 improper spacing on D-smash.

Set: 6 successful, 7 dropped, 1 sub-optimal (42.9%)

Battle Gateway 7 GF1 Gucci vs. aMSa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcGc8I7_qXA

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
1:45 – F-smash 83%. Gucci recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edgehop F-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag. aMSa combos F-air into F-smash.
1:50 – F-smash 115%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with DJ. aMSa does up-B edgehog and hits Gucci with up-B edge stall. aMSa does an edge jump and then intercepts Gucci with fall-off N-air from platform for KO.
3:19 – N-air 76%. Gucci recovers mid with up-B, fades back and grabs edge. aMSa stands on-stage.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 14%
2 successful, 1 dropped
Comments: 3:19 should have run to edge faster.

Game 2: Pokemon Stadium
5:34 – N-air 74%. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edge stand. Gucci edge techs egg and grabs aMSa with up-B, then grabs the edge.
5:38 – Dash attack 96%. Gucci attempts to recover high with up-B. aMSa intercepts Gucci with edgehop N-air. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog and hits Gucci with up-B edge stall. Gucci edge techs egg and grabs aMSa with up-B, then grabs the edge.
6:40 – N-air 136%. Gucci recovers high with DJ and air dodges on-stage. aMSa does down-B edgehog and then edge stand into DJC reversed N-air, hitting Gucci out of air dodge landlag.
6:44 – N-air 150%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa does down-B edgehog for KO.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 96%
1 successful, 2 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 5:34 should have done RDJ instant edgehog to prevent edge tech. 5:38 should have stayed on-stage. 6:40 good option because Gucci was at high %.

Game 3: Pokemon Stadium
7:28 – N-air 93%. Gucci recovers low with DJ, grabs edge. aMSa does U-smash.
7:33 – N-air 108%. Gucci recovers mid with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does DJC reversed N-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
8:42 – N-air 69%. Gucci does not have his DJ; he recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edgehop F-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
8:51 – N-air 125%. Gucci recovers mid with DJ, grabs edge. aMSa does up-B.
9:28 – N-air 50%. Gucci does not have his DJ; he attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for platform. aMSa intercepts Gucci with reversed up-B.

Result: Gucci W, 1 stock 0%
3 dropped, 2 sub-optimal
Comments: 7:28 should have waited and done RDJ instant edgehog; failed read on DJ on-stage. 7:33 should have spaced D-smash. 8:42 up-B edgehog was unnecessary. 8:51 should have waited and done RDJ instant edgehog. 9:28 should have waited with a different option.

Game 4: Fountain of Dreams
11:31 – Jab (2nd hit) 95%. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edge stand. Gucci grabs aMSa with up-B and recovers low with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog and then edge stand into DJC reversed N-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
12:18 – N-air 89%. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edge stand. Gucci wall techs egg and attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa attempts RDJ instant edgehog but gets grabbed by Gucci’s up-B. Gucci attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa intercepts Gucci with rising DJ N-air for KO.
13:06 – N-air 102%. Gucci does not have his DJ; he recovers high with up-B, grabs edge. aMSa does D-smash.
13:25 – Neutral B 0%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B. aMSa does egg toss edgehog and intercepts Gucci with edgehop N-air. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B. aMSa attempts D-smash but gets grabbed by Gucci’s up-B.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 43%
1 successful, 2 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 11:31 should have done edgedash first, should have spaced DJC N-air better. 13:06 should have reacted better vs. up-B. 13:25 should have spaced D-smash better.

Set: 4 successful, 8 dropped, 4 sub-optimal (25.0%)

Battle Gateway 7 GF2 Gucci vs. aMSa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlA6jB3iwkw

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
No clear edgeguard opportunities.

Result: Gucci W, 3 stock 107%

Game 2: Fountain of Dreams
2:42 – D-tilt 10%. Gucci recovers mid with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog and then edge stand into DJC U-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
2:49 – N-air 46%. Gucci attempts to recover low with DJ, aiming for edge. aMSa intercepts Gucci with falling N-air from platform. Gucci attempts to grab edge with up-B. aMSa does a DJ back to the stage but gets grabbed by Gucci’s up-B. Gucci recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does DJC U-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
5:00 – D-tilt 12%. Gucci recovers mid with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then up-B edge stall into edgehop F-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
5:18 – D-tilt 60%. Gucci recovers mid with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then >100% edge stand into DJC U-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.

Result: Gucci W, 1 stock 125%
4 sub-optimal
Comments: 2:42 instant RDJ edgehog was premature, should have waited on-stage. 2:49 not much else aMSa could have done. 5:00 up-B edgehog was premature. 5:18 should have done edgedash instead of >100% edge stand.

Game 3: Yoshi’s Story
6:38 – Gucci falls off-stage with F-air; he attempts to grab edge with up-B. aMSa does DJ instant edgehog for KO.
7:12 – N-air 73%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with DJ, aiming on-stage. aMSa intercepts Gucci with up-B. aMSa combos egg into F-smash for KO.
7:44 – N-air 102%. Gucci attempts to recover low with wall jump into up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then down-B stall twice into edgehop N-air. aMSa attempts RDJ instant edgehog but gets grabbed by Gucci’s up-B. Gucci lands on Randall.
7:54 – Jab (2nd hit) 120%. Gucci attempts to recover mid with DJ, aiming on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog hit confirm into edgehop N-air for KO.
8:34 – D-tilt 83%. Gucci attempts to recover low with DJ, aiming for edge. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog into up-B edge stall. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B but get hits by egg. aMSa does edge stand and combos egg into D-smash for KO.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 12%
4 successful, 1 dropped
Comments: 7:44 should have waited on-stage.

Game 4: Pokemon Stadium
9:56 – F-air 88%. Gucci meteor cancels with DJ and recovers high with up-B, aiming for platform. aMSa does FJ reversed N-air, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
11:06 – N-air 137%. Gucci recovers mid with DJ, grabs edge. aMSa does empty SH.
11:49 – D-smash 48%. Gucci attempts to recover high with up-B. aMSa attempts to intercept Gucci with FJ D-air, but gets grabbed by up-B.
12:31 – Dash attack 116%. Gucci recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does D-smash, hitting Gucci out of up-B landlag.
12:34 – D-smash 125%. Gucci attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog for KO.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 97%
2 successful, 2 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 9:56 should have had better patience on the N-air. 11:06 should have done RDJ instant edgehog. 11:49 should have stayed on-stage.

Game 5: Pokemon Stadium
14:11 – N-air 101%. Gucci recovers high with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog and intercepts Gucci with edgehop N-air. Gucci recovers mid with up-B. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog into down-B edge stall and then intercepts Gucci with edgehop N-air for KO.
15:06 – D-tilt 0%. Gucci recovers mid with DJ, aiming on-stage. aMSa intercepts Gucci with D-tilt. Gucci attempts to grab edge with up-B. aMSa intercepts Gucci with up-B edgehog and then does up-B edge stall hit confirm into edgehop N-air. Gucci attempts to recover mid with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa does D-smash for KO.

Result: Gucci W, 1 stock 95%
2 successful

8 successful, 3 dropped, 5 sub-optimal (50.0%)

MLG Anaheim 2014 LR1 aMSa vs. S2J
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnuF7P9FCt0

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
1:40 – D-smash (2nd hit) 95%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage phasing through platform. aMSa attempts to intercept with up-B and then FJ N-air.
2:05 – N-air 138%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa attempts to intercept with up-B and then does FJ N-air, hitting S2J out of up-B landlag.
2:10 – N-air 152%. S2J attempts to recover high with DJ, aiming for edge. aMSa does up-B edgehog. S2J recovers mid with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does >100% edge stand.
3:01 – D-smash 80%. S2J attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for platform. aMSa intercepts with DJC N-air for KO.
3:30 – S2J jumps off-stage with F-air; he attempts to recover mid with up-B, aiming for stage. aMSa intercepts S2J with up-B.
3:45 – D-smash 52%. S2J recovers high with up-B, aiming for platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then edgehop F-air, hitting S2J out of landlag. aMSa combos F-air into reversed D-smash.
3:50 – Dash attack 95%. S2J attempts to grab edge with DJ. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog. S2J recovers low with reverse up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does edgedash.
4:11 – N-air 138%. S2J attempts to recover mid with DJ, aiming for edge. aMSa intercepts with dash attack into RDJ instant edgehog. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does edge stand into reversed D-smash, hitting S2J out of landlag.
4:15 – D-smash 156%. S2J attempts to recover low with up-B. aMSa does up-B edgehog and then up-B edge stall hit confirm into edge stand D-smash for KO.
5:23 – N-air 103%. S2J attempts to recover low with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa does up-B edgehog for KO.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 64%
3 successful, 4 dropped, 2 sub-optimal
Comments: 1:40 should not have attempted to intercept with up-B. 2:10 should have done edgehop or edgedash instead of >100% edge stand. 3:30 should have wavelanded on-stage and followed up. 3:45 better positioning would have yielded desirable D-smash trajectory. 3:50 should have done up-B edge stall or earlier edge dash. 4:11 good option because S2J was at high %.

Game 2: Pokemon Stadium
6:08 – N-air 131%. S2J recovers low with DJ, grabs edge. aMSa attempts to intercept S2J with F-air and then DJs on-stage.
7:54 – N-air 84%. S2J attempts to recover low with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa intercepts with up-B hit confirm into D-smash for KO.
8:44 – N-air 90%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on stage. aMSa does reversed D-smash (2nd hit), hitting S2J out of up-B landlag.

Result: aMSa W, 1 stock 88%
1 successful, 1 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 6:08 should have waited on-stage and done RDJ instant edgehog. 8:44 should have spaced D-smash better.

Game 3: Pokemon Stadium
9:57 – D-smash 102%. S2J attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa intercepts S2J with D-smash for KO.
11:53 – D-smash 69%. S2J attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming on-stage. aMSa intercepts S2J with D-smash for KO.

Result: S2J W, 1 stock 41%
2 successful

Game 4: Fountain of Dreams
14:01 – N-air 99%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog into reversed edgehop N-air, hitting S2J out of up-B landlag.
14:05 – N-air 112%. S2J recovers high with up-B, grabs edge. aMSa does nothing.
14:21 – N-air 129%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog, up-B edge stall, and then attempts to intercept S2J with edgehop N-air.

Result: S2J W, 2 stock 12%
2 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 14:01 should have stayed on-stage. 14:05 should have reacted better to up-B. 14:21 should have done edgedash for follow-up.

Game 5: Yoshi’s Story
19:23 – N-air 41%. S2J recovers low with wall jump into up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa edge cancels into RDJ instant edgehog and then does >100% edge stand.

Result: S2J W, 2 stock 50%
1 dropped
Comments: should have done edgedash instead of >100% edge stand.

Set: 6 successful, 8 dropped, 4 sub-optimal (33.3%)

EVO 2014 LTop16Qual aMSa vs. S2J
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAYLDIP1q64

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
1:20 – N-air 86%. S2J does not have his DJ; he attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa intercepts with D-smash for KO.
2:32 – D-smash 111%. S2J attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for platform. aMSa intercepts S2J with reversed up-B edgehog.

Result: S2J W, 1 stock 13%
1 successful, 1 dropped
Comments: 2:32 should have waited on-stage or done RDJ instant edgehog into edgedash for follow-up.

Game 2: Battlefield
4:10 – N-air 103%. S2J recovers high with up-B, grabs edge. aMSa does up-B and then D-smash.
4:16 – N-air 115%. S2J recovers high with DJ and attempts to air dodge on-stage. aMSa does up-B edgehog, edge stand, and then intercepts S2J with FJ N-air. S2J recovers high with up-B, grabs edge. aMSa does down-B edgehog into edge stand.
4:23 – N-air 145%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edge stand.
5:15 – N-air 96%. S2J recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. aMSa does up-B edgehog into edge stand.
5:43 – N-air 141%. S2J does not have his DJ; he recovers high with up-B, lands on-stage. aMSa does reversed D-smash, hitting S2J out of up-B landlag.
5:45 – D-smash 148%. S2J attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for edge. aMSa does RDJ instant edgehog for KO.

Result: S2J W, 1 stock 67%
1 successful, 4 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 4:10 should have reacted better to up-B. 4:16 should have stayed on edge. 4:23 should have reacted better to up-B or done edgedash instead of edge stand for follow-up. 5:15 should have done FJ N-air or waited on platform. 5:43 acceptable option because S2J was at high %.

Set: 2 successful, 5 dropped, 1 sub-optimal (25.0%)

EVO 2014 Pools V3ctorman vs. Jace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVgMHVYD-gk

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
1:06 – N-air 151%. Jace attempts to recover low with up-B, aiming for edge. Vman does RDJ instant edgehog for KO.
1:34 – N-air 83%. Jace recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does dash attack.
1:39 – N-air 97%. Jace attempts to grab edge with DJ. Vman does up-B edgehog. Jace attempts to recover low with reverse up-B but gets hit by egg. Jace attempts to recover low with reverse up-B, aiming for edge. Vman intercepts Jace with dash attack. Jace attempts to recover mid with up-B. Vman does RDJ instant edgehog and then hit confirm up-B edge stall into edgehop N-air for KO.

Result: Jace W, 1 stock 116%
2 successful, 1 dropped
Comments: 1:34 should not have committed to dash attack.

Game 2: Dream Land
6:00 – N-air 117%. Jace recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does up-B edgehog and then up-B stall into edgehop F-air, hitting Jace out of up-B landlag.
6:08 – Jab (2nd hit) 161%. Jace recovers mid with up-B, lands on-stage phasing through platform. Vman does up-B edgehog into edgehop waveland on platform.
6:15 – N-air 174%. Jace recovers high with up-B, fades back and grabs edge. Vman attempts to intercept Jace with up-B and then FJ U-air.
7:18 – N-air 121%. Jace attempts to recover high with up-B, fading back and aiming for edge. Vman intercepts with D-smash for KO.
8:36 – N-air 116%. Jace attempts to grab edge with up-B. Vman does RDJ instant edgehog for KO.

Result: V3ctorman W, 1 stock 128%
2 successful, 2 dropped, 1 sub-optimal
Comments: 6:00 should not have done up-B stall. 6:08 should have done edgedash for follow-up. 6:15 should have waited on-stage.

Game 3: Pokemon Stadium
10:13 – N-air 108%. Jace attempts to recover high with up-B, aiming for platform. Vman does up-B edgehog and then intercepts Jace with edgehop F-air.
12:04 – N-air 94%. Jace recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does up-B edgehog and then >100% edge jump.
12:09 – N-air 109%. Jace recovers high with up-B, fades back and grabs edge. Vman does up-B edgehog and attempts to intercept Jace with edgehop N-air.
12:13 – N-air 120%. Jace recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does FJ reversed N-air, hitting Jace out of up-B landlag.
12:20 – N-air 141%. Jace recovers mid with up-B, aiming for stage. Vman does up-B edgehog and intercepts Jace with edgehop N-air for KO.
13:34 – N-air 94%. Jace recovers high with DJ and attempts to air dodge on-stage. Vman does up-B edgehog and intercepts Jace with edgehop reversed N-air.

Result: V3ctorman W, 1 stock 31%
1 successful, 2 dropped, 3 sub-optimal
Comments: 10:13 should not have done up-B edgehog. 12:04 should have done RDJ instant edgehog into edgedash for follow-up. 12:09 should have waited on-stage. 12:13 should have reacted better to up-B. 13:34 not much else Vman could have done.

Set: 5 successful, 5 dropped, 4 sub-optimal (35.7%)

Smash the Target LR7 V3ctorman vs. GamerGuitarist7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wp46WF00kg

Spoiler

Game 1: Battlefield
1:29 – N-air 73%. GG7 recovers mid with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does DJC U-air, hitting GG7 out of up-B landlag. Vman combos U-air into N-air.
2:58 – N-air 82%. GG7 recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does up-B and then empty FJ.
3:24 – N-air 115%. GG7 attempts to recover high with side-B. Vman intercepts GG7 with up-B edgehog. GG7 recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman falls through platform.
3:31 – N-air 154%. GG7 does not have his DJ; he recovers low with up-B, grabs edge. Vman phantom hits GG7 with dash attack.
3:37 – Jab (2nd hit) 170%. GG7 recovers high with DJ and air dodges onto edge. Vman does up-B and then D-tilt.
3:42 – N-air 175%. GG7 attempts to recover low with up-B. Vman intercepts GG7 with dash attack for KO.

Result: GG7 W, 2 stock 13%
1 successful, 3 dropped, 2 sub-optimal
Comments: 1:29 should have wavelanded onto platform for follow-up. 2:58 should not have committed to up-B. 3:24 should have stayed on platform. 3:31 should have done RDJ instant edgehog. 3:37 should have reacted to air dodge better.

Game 2: Yoshi’s Story
4:57 – N-air 99%. GG7 recovers high with up-B, fades back and grabs edge. Vman does up-B edgehog and then edge stand into empty FJ.
5:02 – Jab (2nd hit) 114%. GG7 attempts to grab edge with DJ. Vman does up-B edgehog into edgehop N-air for KO.
5:52 – N-air 89%. GG7 attempts to grab edge with DJ. Vman does up-B edgehog and then intercepts GG7 with up-B edge stall. GG7 recovers mid with up-B, lands on-stage. Vman does edgehop air dodge on-stage into reversed D-smash, hitting GG7 out of up-B landlag.
5:55 – D-smash 114%. GG7 recovers mid with DJ, lands on Randall.
6:33 – D-smash 50%. GG7 recovers mid with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does up-B edgehog and then edge jump into F-tilt, hitting GG7 out of up-B landlag.
6:41 – N-air 106%. GG7 recovers high with DJ, grabs edge. Vman does up-B.
7:06 – D-smash (2nd hit) 126%. GG7 recovers high with up-B, lands on platform. Vman does FJ reversed N-air, hitting GG7 out of up-B landlag.
7:09 – N-air 139%. GG7 recovers high with DJ, grabs edge. Vman does up-B twice.

Result: GG7 W, 2 stock 153%
1 successful, 4 dropped, 3 sub-optimal
Comments: 4:57 should have reacted to up-B better. 5:52 Vman flubbed the edgedash. 5:55 not much that Vman could have done. 6:33 should have stayed on-stage. 6:41 should have done RDJ instant edgehog. 7:06 should have wavelanded onto platform for follow-up. 7:09 should not have committed to up-B.

Set: 2 successful, 7 dropped, 5 sub-optimal (14.3%)

aMSa cumulative: 24 successful, 31 dropped, 15 sub-optimal (34.3%)
Vman cumulative: 7 successful, 12 dropped, 9 sub-optimal (25.0%)
Total cumulative: 31 successful, 43 dropped, 24 sub-optimal (31.6%)

Conclusion

31.6% edgeguarding efficiency is far short of the 100% efficiency that we're aiming for. Credit must be given to the C. Falcon players, since high level C. Falcons like Gucci and S2J try their hardest to make edgeguarding tricky. The fact remains, however, that C. Falcon should be almost 100% edgeguard-able even with all of the player's trickery at his disposal.

More analysis in a subsequent post.

 

[DD151]

Thoughts on edgeguard options and habits

There are a few bad habits that aMSa and Vman do. Both frequently do the up-B edgehog when it's not necessary and do up-B stalls when they have no chance of hitting the opponent. These options take precious frames to execute and they put Yoshi on the edge, which means that it's more difficult for him to cover a high recovery on-stage.

aMSa attempts to go off-stage to intercept a recovery thrice, and all 3 attempts failed to get the KO. Going off-stage seems to be a notably sub-optimal option, since Yoshi has a significant chance of missing, puts himself in a worse position, and a good opponent can still recover even when hit. I think that Yoshi should never go off-stage to intercept C. Falcon.

Both players have missed opportunities for easy instant edgehog KOs. There are 2 situations in which I think an edgehog is the best decision. The first is when C. Falcon can grab the edge using only his double jump. Edgehogging him in this situation forces him to up-B, which requires that Yoshi react (more on this later). The second is when C. Falcon can only grab the edge with his up-B. If C. Falcon has enough potential aerial drift to land on the stage, unless he can only land close enough to the edge so that Yoshi can punish landlag with some edge get-up -> DJC N-air, then Yoshi should stay on-stage and intercept attempts for the edge with D-tilt or D-smash.

When C. Falcon is recovering high on a stage with platforms, this is a difficult position for Yoshi. If Yoshi reads C. Falcon landing on the platform, he can either FJ N-air or waveland into D-smash to punish landlag. However, C. Falcon can also fastfall through the platform and land on the stage. On stages like Yoshi's Story where the platform extends beyond the stage, Yoshi can intercept all high recoveries with D-smash even if C. Falcon tries to go for the edge. This may still be possible on Battlefield. This is one mix-up that I need more thought about how to cover on reaction.

When is it beneficial to use the up-B edgehog? The answer, I think, is if 3 conditions are met: C. Falcon can recover high with his DJ and grab the edge, Yoshi can throw the egg before or when C. Falcon uses his DJ, and C. Falcon cannot jump over the egg at its highest point. When these conditions are met, the egg eats C. Falcon's DJ and C. Falcon should be close enough to the stage for Yoshi to hit confirm the egg into a N-air.

What is Yoshi supposed to do if he edgehogs C. Falcon's DJ and forces him to up-B low? I think there are 3 options here. The first is to do an up-B stall with an egg thrown lightly behind. This can be hit confirmed into an edgehop N-air. However, twice Gucci managed to wall-tech the egg, which caused aMSa to drop the edgeguard. The second option is to quickly get back up on the edge with a <100% edge stand or an edgedash and then react to C. Falcon's up-B. The danger here is that if Yoshi's timing is bad, he can get grabbed by the up-B, which will cause a dropped edgeguard. The third option is to stay on the edge and reactively punish C. Falcon's up-B onto the stage. If C. Falcon uses up-B early, however, he can go pretty far into the stage, making it difficult to knock him out again.

I do not like dash attack as an option. D-tilt has the same or better coverage for C. Falcon recovering low, it generally has a more lethal trajectory, and it's less of a commitment. I think that dash attack should only be used if Yoshi cannot otherwise hit a low recovering C. Falcon with anything else.

 

[Noyu]

Just keep in mind, in some cases falcon can tech.

 

[Sashimi]

When is it beneficial to use the up-B edgehog? The answer, I think, is if 3 conditions are met: C. Falcon can recover high with his DJ and grab the edge, Yoshi can throw the egg before or when C. Falcon uses his DJ, and C. Falcon cannot jump over the egg at its highest point. When these conditions are met, the egg eats C. Falcon's DJ and C. Falcon should be close enough to the stage for Yoshi to hit confirm the egg into a N-air.

In this situation I would worry about Falcon waiting for you to throw the egg and saving his double jump until you are both at the ledge, in which case he may be able to double jump and hit you with an aerial while still being able to grab the ledge with Up B afterwards. How much of a risk do you think this is?

The third option is to stay on the edge and reactively punish C. Falcon's up-B onto the stage. If C. Falcon uses up-B early, however, he can go pretty far into the stage, making it difficult to knock him out again.

If there is no way for Falcon to land on a platform here, you can probably stay on the ledge and react to how far he is going. Waveland Utilt should reach as far as he can go, and if you react fast enough you will be able to hit him during his landing lag. Utilt will then combo into things that will send him back offstage (or a KO move at high enough %), and combo DI for Utilt requires him to DI offstage. If his DI is a big problem, down-angled Ftilt for the DI mixup.

Also, for any of the situations where Falcon is double jumping to the ledge, I think it is worth distinguishing between those where Falcon also has the option of Double Jump > Aerial > Up B > Grab Ledge and those where he doesn't, because that can prevent you from edgehogging him. In theory you could cover this with edge-cancelled parry edgehog but that's a bit silly.

I think any option that allows the opponent to ledge tech is eventually going to become useless, but there will always be players who are unable to ledge tech as well, so it doesn't hurt to use those options if you know there's no risk of a tech.

For situations where Falcon can mix up landing on the platform or passing through it, it is worth noting that if you are watching to see which he will choose, it will take about 15 frames, or half of his landing lag, to react. If he chooses to pass through, you will know before he touches the ground, but if he lands on the platform you are limited to <15 frame options if you want to hit him on reaction. This means something as fast as FJ > DJL > Dsmash is too slow. Off the top of my head I am not sure if FJ Nair is fast enough, but if it is, it's only barely fast enough. On stages with low platforms you may be able to cover the platform on reaction with Utilt into something like Nair.

Great stuff!

 

[DD151]

In this situation I would worry about Falcon waiting for you to throw the egg and saving his double jump until you are both at the ledge, in which case he may be able to double jump and hit you with an aerial while still being able to grab the ledge with Up B afterwards. How much of a risk do you think this is?

I think it's hard to really nail this down without an in-game screenshot and/or a diagram to clarify spatial positions rather than me just describing them. There may be a risk here, but if C. Falcon dodges the up-B edgehog, Yoshi is in a position to either do an up-B stall or refresh edge invincibility through some other means. The one thing I do want to mention is that if C. Falcon jumps over or around the egg, Yoshi should not up-B stall because there is no way that he can hit a high recovery.

This is probably something that needs to be tested so that we can really explore what options each character has.

If there is no way for Falcon to land on a platform here, you can probably stay on the ledge and react to how far he is going. Waveland Utilt should reach as far as he can go, and if you react fast enough you will be able to hit him during his landing lag. Utilt will then combo into things that will send him back offstage (or a KO move at high enough %), and combo DI for Utilt requires him to DI offstage. If his DI is a big problem, down-angled Ftilt for the DI mixup.

Good suggestions.

Also, for any of the situations where Falcon is double jumping to the ledge, I think it is worth distinguishing between those where Falcon also has the option of Double Jump > Aerial > Up B > Grab Ledge and those where he doesn't, because that can prevent you from edgehogging him. In theory you could cover this with edge-cancelled parry edgehog but that's a bit silly.

Yoshi should be able to time his edge invincibility for any aerial that C. Falcon throws out.

For situations where Falcon can mix up landing on the platform or passing through it, it is worth noting that if you are watching to see which he will choose, it will take about 15 frames, or half of his landing lag, to react.

This is why I think it's a better idea to have Yoshi go wait on the platform if C. Falcon reveals that he's recovering high. Edgeguarding C. Falcon, from my point of view, is all about closing angles on him. So say you stand as far towards the center of the stage as possible to hit C. Falcon with a D-smash the moment he lands, assuming that he drifts all the way in. Your opponent isn't going to drift in all the way with you positioned the way you are, so he will start to drift out. You just need to observe this and walk towards the edge of the stage. As long as C. Falcon is afraid to drift farther in, the number of recovery options that he has continuously dwindles.