Edgegaurding Spacies

[JFox]

I'm having a lot of trouble getting a solid edgeguard down against the spacies. They just have too many options, its hard to cover em all.

What I want is an edgegaurd tactic that can cover all options. So I want to be in position to cover foward b (both onto the stage, and onto the ledge) without being out of position if they decide to go into their Up B.

Than I want the BEST POSSIBLE way to cover their Up Bs. Basically, what do I do if they are above the stage sweetspotting the ledge downward, if they are above and shoot up to a platform, if they are slightly above the stage and go straight into me, if they are slightly under the stage and a bit outward, and lastly if they are directly under the stage and are forced to go up hugging the wall.

Again, I need to cover all these options best I can. I'd like to avoid dsmashin their Up B, cuz people have gotten pretty good at teching into a forward B. But if its the best option, than so be it.

Please don't respond unless you think you are rather good at edgeguarding.

 

[Teczer0]

Yea its pretty hard to cover all of the options...

You do have to make some decisions though no few things can cover everything spacies can do.

If you think a spacie is going to illusion past or above you I would try to use up-smash. Its surprisingly effective, however it only covers options involving the opponent attacking you with the attack. It is sorta unorthodox and can catch people off guard. I was able to do it a bunch of times to Spammer because he claimed he thought I was doing a D-smash so opted to hit me instead of sweetspotting. .... lulz

The up-smash can also catch Spacie fires flying into you because the up-smash hitbox covers peach completely. If they don't get hit by the sweetspot they simply pop up from the up-smash and you can just n-air them off the stage again.

Instant floating over the edge-dair -> n-air works too if they are trying to sweetspot the ledge.

lol stolen from Vanz

>_> I hope that helps

 

[JFox]

What attack should I use if they are above the ledge and I think there is a chance they are going to go down to the ledge. Is there anything less laggy so that if they instead go to the platform, i can still keep them locked down?

Should I Upsmash before they start there foward b so that it will be finished in time for me to cover the up b, or will that be to early?

Thanks tec0 for your input.

 

[Teczer0]

What attack should I use if they are above the ledge and I think there is a chance they are going to go down to the ledge. Is there anything less laggy so that if they instead go to the platform, i can still keep them locked down?

Should I Upsmash before they start there foward b so that it will be finished in time for me to cover the up b, or will that be to early?

Thanks tec0 for your input.

If they are above the level of the stage it'll get harder. If I was given enough time and they are close enough to the stage I would normally just jump off and n-air right in front of the fire or into the fire.

If not I would just D-air the edge, if I see them go above me you can quickly just land run towards their direction and D-smash them hopefully off the stage.

You should start the up-smash when you hear the zing (Is this what its called?)

If they are under the stage and you feel they are going to overshoot the edge you can charge the upsmash to make the timing a bit easier.

Glad I can help Jfox.

We should play after finals

 

[Rain(ame)]

I'm going to take what I saw from Slikvik, which is to Fair towards the edge. He said that the crown hooks under, so you can reach them if their attempting to sweetspot or hug the wall. Also, a Bair works REALLY well. You'd be surprised at how effective it is against both the Fire Fox/Bird, and the Illusion. I personally prefer the Bair and the Dair->Nair, myself. I do tend to go for the Dsmash....which does't ALWAYS work, sadly. What else is effective is to set up for the Dtilt.


"Crank that Roy"

 

[JFox]

ame- they can tech the bair they are still hugging the wall when it hits. I'm sure this is probably tru to the fair as well. I've never tried out the fair, I'll give it a shot.

I use bair for the illusion though, that works well.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Hmm, I guess, though I try not to Bair people into the stage for that reason. Although, if they're out there, I'll do it. I did however just think of something, I'll let you know if it works.


"Crank that Roy"

 

[exarch]

There's no 100% edgeguard against the spacies. You do have to guess. Here are some of my more preferred options, and some elaborations on others suggested already.

Dtilt--Some spacies will check to see if you are going for a dair or not (if you're floating at ground height) and will overb at a level above the dair (and hit you) if you are or below to sweet spot if you're not. Most of the time if you're on the ground these types will attempt to sweetspot with overb if you remain on the ground. They assume (most of the time) that you will attempt to dsmash them which is then a free recovery.

The dtilt covers area in front and below peach. The higher hitbox will spike (which puts them below the stage w/o their second jump) and the lower hitbox pops them up in the air with huge stun time. If you connect with the low hitbox you get free followups till about 130%. So pick any move to finish with (fair or nair hopefully) and then edgehog and you should have their stock. Teching this move is harder (i think) and it suprises a lot of people so it's good. However they are successful with their tech there can be strange things that happen so be ready to react and hopefully the spacey will still be confused.

Also there is little wind down lag so if they do overb way above you, you have a better chance at chasing their lag, or you can move into another method of edgeguard quickly if they opt for their upb instead.

However it cannot guard against "sweetspotted" overb's i.e. ones that end just outside of your range horizontally then the FFer grabs the edge. Typically happen because of a well spaced overb or someone who's insanely good at shortening. Overall though, peach can't do anything about this recovery anyways except for chasing off the level, which requires a preemptive guess.

I don't like upsmash edgeguards as much because they don't combo into death moves and don't kill beginning at like 50% and ending at 130%... at those percentages you've mostly just done more damage, instead of removing the stock. The dtilt in those situations will more than likely take the stock.

For upb's

If they're above the level and go for the sweetspot peach has a really hard time covering it. Unless you go out over the level's edge you cannot hit it (from what i've experimented with). Maybe a fsmash would be the best choice...i'll play with it next time.

Most of the time I just stand on the level and look stupid till the last second and full hop a fair hoping they upb high instead of to the ledge. This is mainly because if it works i get the stock and the other one is just so hard to cover. Basically intimidate them away from the edge and then try to intercept at the last second (before they can switch back). Obviously you can't do this many times in a row.

Of course, if you CAN hit them while they're stalling in the beginning of the firefox, do that. That's the best option. (Note I don't dtilt if they start the firefox way up in the air lol)

If they're slightly above the edge and sweetspotting is not an option, always assume they're aiming at you. Attempt to hit what would intercept you with a FC'd fair and if they don't go that direction land quickly and try to chase. Most of the time you can hit them with a fullhopped nair after the fair and at worst end up in the same position as before.

If they are coming from below the stage at all with their upb, generally the best bet is to turn around and bair the edge. The hitbox for the bair is huge and hard to mess up. Once you've connected with one bair, the spacey will fall away and out from the edge. You should then fall out of your float and attempt another bair below the level, connecting with this bair at all (sweetspotted or not) will finish the stock regardless of percent. Be careful of fox's fire in this situation, but otherwise you will have just enough time to second jump and upb to edgehog and take the stock.

Yes the bair is techable, but only after a certain percent. The Fair is too. Some peach's recommend the Dair if they're coming from below, but I just can't trust the dair's priority. The move sucks.

That's basically my general edgeguard against spaceys... starting with the dtilt, then adapting to whatever happens next. I've tried to make it as high percentage to be successful as possible, but even still I do try to guess out my opponent occassionally.

dair -> nair against overb's is very effective, if you can connect with the dair it's GG spacey.

Fsmash is a good gimp kill as well but i generally only use it when they're upbing from below the level, they have low percent and I think they'll overshoot the edge. Racquet and Club are insta edgehog kill, and the pan combos at low percents.

I actually never upsmash edgeguard. When I do is when I'm screwing around. I suppose the unsweetspotted upsmash is a good comboer >_>

Idk there's no set way to do it. Unfortunately edgeguarding is a large and very difficult part of the game, and you have to learn your individual best methods of edgeguarding for every one of your characters against everyone of the other characters.

If you actually read the whole thing that's amazing and it's great that people are still this hungry for melee ideas. Goodness knows I prefer this game over OMG EYE JES SW33TSP)773D AGEN!!! I R 2 GUD!!

 

[Teczer0]

I don't like upsmash edgeguards as much because they don't combo into death moves and don't kill beginning at like 50% and ending at 130%... at those percentages you've mostly just done more damage, instead of removing the stock. The dtilt in those situations will more than likely take the stock.

What do you mean???

If you hit a non-sweetspotted up-smash its very easy to land a n-air after you connect the up-smash.

Not to say my edgeguard is better than yours but wouldn't the d-tilt require more precise predictions?

I mean the hitbox for the d-tilt is okay and yea it can spike(Never happened with me but whatever *shrugs*) or if it doesn't sure as long as they don't DI properly you could probably land another N-air sending them off the stage.

But the up-smash requires far far less predicting ability. It covers more options than the d-tilt IMO.

The d-tilt can cover possible sweetspot mess-ups (Unless it hits that far below which i don't believe it does) or maybe a low un-sweetspotted illusion or a low aimed fire.

While the up-smash can cover low illusions, low fires, fires coming at you, illusions coming at you, fires that hover above your head, illusions that hover above your head.

And if you catch any of them you can land a n-air just like the d-tilt situation.

Unless you hit the semi-sweetspot/ sweetspot of the up-smash. Which can KO at low 100%, Combo into up-airs at low percents, or at mid percents you can do that umbrella thing into d-smash.

Well whatever I guess whatever floats your boat so to speak.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet but, as a space animal player, I hate dair -> nair the most, it hits everytime =(

 

[Teczer0]

Not sure if anyone has said this yet but, as a space animal player, I hate dair -> nair the most, it hits everytime =(

Instant floating over the edge-dair -> n-air works too if they are trying to sweetspot the ledge.

lol stolen from Vanz

>_> I hope that helps

I did

Yay

Man I wish there was another giant melee tourney so it can accomplish two things.

1) I wanna play you.. that was probably obvious.

2) I wanna see a falco ditto between you and Eggm. Not sure if you know Eggm but man that would be epic.

 

[Yuna]

Double Bair works. Bair them, then follow them (DI chase if necessary) with another Bair. If they try to Illusion, the Bair will hit them, if they don't have enough % to fly off far enough for the Bair to whiff, the Bair will hit them. Then make it back to the stage by floating or 2nd jumping (unless you had to use your 2nd jump for the 2nd Bair) and Bair again if necessary to edgeguard (either before or after getting back on stage).

 

[exarch]

What do you mean???

If you hit a non-sweetspotted up-smash its very easy to land a n-air after you connect the up-smash.

Not to say my edgeguard is better than yours but wouldn't the d-tilt require more precise predictions?

I mean the hitbox for the d-tilt is okay and yea it can spike(Never happened with me but whatever *shrugs*) or if it doesn't sure as long as they don't DI properly you could probably land another N-air sending them off the stage.

But the up-smash requires far far less predicting ability. It covers more options than the d-tilt IMO.

The d-tilt can cover possible sweetspot mess-ups (Unless it hits that far below which i don't believe it does) or maybe a low un-sweetspotted illusion or a low aimed fire.

While the up-smash can cover low illusions, low fires, fires coming at you, illusions coming at you, fires that hover above your head, illusions that hover above your head.

And if you catch any of them you can land a n-air just like the d-tilt situation.

Unless you hit the semi-sweetspot/ sweetspot of the up-smash. Which can KO at low 100%, Combo into up-airs at low percents, or at mid percents you can do that umbrella thing into d-smash.

Well whatever I guess whatever floats your boat so to speak.

Uhh not sure how to organize the response.

Upsmash:
Ok I figured the weak hit of the upsmash would combo, but it shouldn't if they DI away. But whenever I try to use it I end up getting one of the two stronger hits >_> The Upsmash shouldn't KO (excluding the shoulderpad) until 110 or 120 on FD, i think. And if it is hit with the followups stop at 50%ish. So because I generally hit one of the normal hit or sweetspot, i don't find it effective.

If they instead go for a firefox i find if i attempt to guess an illusion, i'm still in the wind down lang of the upsmash. So basically the wind down of the upsmash is what kills it for me, that and the fact i tend to get the stronger hits.

Dtilt:
It does hit low enough to cover sweetspot illusions, and it will hit at your head level. I only use it to cover illusions at face and sweetspot levels, as the wind down is small enough to where I can adapt if they instead go into the firefox, I don't use the dtilt for the firefox.

Honestly no i've never gotten it to spike, (outside of a good jigglypuff randomly once), but I am waiting for that to happen. Generally when i go for the dtilt they don't aim at my face but try to sweetspot around it.

Them DIing properly to avoid the Dtilt combo would mean they would have to DI off the stage. How many spaceys are going to DI away from the edge? None. They're all holding towards it and trying to tech. If they DI'ed away they'd also get away from weak upsmash followups as well.

------------------------------------

Here's the idea.

Fox over the edge and firefoxing is one situation, how to cover this situations was already described by both of us.

Fox gets about even with the level
I cover all Illusion attempts at this level with dtilt. The hitbox is larger than you think, it's got a tiiiiiny bit more forward range than peach's jab, and hits sweetspotters consistently. I always predict the illusion, but it doesn't matter because if i'm wrong i can adapt with dtilts small wind down lag into something else. The spiking hitbox is actually very high, and not even with peach... but if they decide to go just that bit higher...

Note: i'm not trying to predict anything with the dtilt, it throw it out just in case they attempt an overb at certain levels. The move's wind down is small enough so that if they don't i'm back to neutral position to edgeguard. It is the peach equivalent of marth's jabbing the edge (has effectively the same strengths and the same weaknesses). You know that marth edgeguard, the one M2K uses so brutally.

For firefoxes, if they're firefoxing even with my head I try to fair then adjust incase they don't head at me (go over me). If they firefox even with the edge I dair and try to adjust if they go above me.

If they fall below the level and try to firefox the dtilt finishes quickly and i flip around for a bair.

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This method of edgeguarding take as little (or less imo) reaction and prediction as any of the others i've seen. If you start to upsmash you have to be very quick to react to a overb and if you react wrong they basically get onto the level for free. Also if they firefox at stage level and you're upsmashing they can simply just angle over you and land on a platform. Basically if fox goes over you at all, you've missed the edgeguard completely. The dtilt's small wind down still allows you to chase if even if you miss because they tried something different.

But yes when it gets down to it, it's all about individual preference. I don't like the upsmash, and TecZero's never heard of the dtilt or seen it effectively used before. (<3)

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Lots of little sections!

Also a GF nair can hit spacies aiming for the edge if you fall out of the nair with the right timing. It does effectively the same as the dtilt, but is more difficult to time, so i prefer the dtilt. Also it hits with the sexy part of the nair so it should be harder to tech.

If you want to see whether a move will hit sweetspotters or not, the everyman's way to test is to stand on the middle platform in GGs and see if you can hit the lowest level of blocks.
Standing on the level, the dtilt hits two out of the three lowest blocks... that's some range.
Upsmash doesn't even hit the second lowest level of blocks. Dtilt's definitely the better guard against sweetspotters. Try it, it's pretty shocking

So it takes a little more timing. I'll live. Especially when I don't have trouble with it anyways.

I'm enjoying this discussion.

 

[Teczer0]

Exarch - Hmm thats interesting I've only tried the d-tilt a couple times but I never actually got it to work against a space animal edgeguard wise that is.

I've always used her D-air off the stage to catch spacies trying to sweetspot illusion or sumthin.

The up-smash doesn't require you to be that precise and although the wind down lag does take a little time the hit stun for the upsmash is pretty good.

There were plenty of times where I have seen a fire that overshot the edge and I hit them with a non-sweetpot up-smash. After that they were still stunned to a point where I can n-air them.

In any case the d-tilt isn't something I looked into but it doesn't sound too bad I don't know like frame data so sorry about that >_<.

I had no idea the hitbox extends to her head T_T.

I fail

In any case I'll try your edgeguard and comment on it more when I have more experience using that over D-air - > N-air.



Something really cool....

At like roughly say 90 - 110 ish (I think its been a while since I actually done it but its soooooo cool it could be less percent wise) if you connect with a d-tilt (Not as an edgeguard) you can quickly run under the spacie and actually connect with a FULLY charged up-smash sweetspotted and everything.

Its sickkkkkk I saw Ryoko catch it on a spacie and I couldn't believe it... LOLOLOLOL

 

[exarch]

Haha yeah I love the 90-110 upsmash
75-95ish you can shoulderpad it and still kill them on FD.

I get what you're saying on the upsmash, that's interesting... i'll stick with my method but it's maybe something to play around with.

If you're looking for the dtilt not working there's stuff of me against thelaw (pretty embarrassing videos cause he doesn't look great and i get beat, but he beat chudat in pools at one of the pounds so he's actually a good player). That's actually one of the few times it's failed me, and it failed me several times over two games, but it was also the first time i was playing it, so hopefully i've gotten better at it.

 

[Teczer0]

Haha thats pretty cool

I beat Chu in one game then I tried counter picking him with Peach on dreamland..

And he counterpicked Pikachu and ***** me T_T.

God his pickachu is soo good.

I'll probably poke around and try using the d-tilt eventually that is whenever I get out of school.

Brawl is gay >_>.

 

[exarch]

Brawl does suck >_>

I split 2 relatively close matches with Chu peach pika then switched to Roy 3rd match because i like low tier matches and got 2 stocked.

Lol i need to just pick the gay characters... in all honesty. It's not like i didn't have a sheik i could have used.

 

[HiIH]

I did

Yay

Man I wish there was another giant melee tourney so it can accomplish two things.

1) I wanna play you.. that was probably obvious.

2) I wanna see a falco ditto between you and Eggm. Not sure if you know Eggm but man that would be epic.

Come to Georgia for the biggest melee tourney since brawl.

<.<;

 

[exarch]

Lol, do it TecZero, I'll be there too! It'd be great to meet you!
Nevermind the 16 hour drive...

 

[Teczer0]

Well.. I have to see about the money

If I can I most definitely will although you guys won't see me use peach LOL.

Eggm is going sooooooo... its a possibility >_>

Yay I feel special people are telling me to go to tournies .

It takes like nothing to make me happy LOL I'm crazy

 

[derf]

xif just runs off the stage with nairs and ghettobooty. its pretty nuts.

idk why im posting here i just felt like saying something about melee : )

 

[JFox]

I thought of an edgegaurd that almost covers all options so long as you can get the execution down.

You hit/throw the opponent off the stage. You immediately begin an instant float cancel where you are barely hovering about the ground level. If they illusion to the ledge, as soon as you hear the ding, hit down a to dair them. If they are above the ledge to hit you, just hit a as soon as you hear the ding to nair them. If they jump up and up b, drop out of float then immediately jump out and Nair (fairs too slow) WITHOUT using your float.

Now they are under the stage because you have either nair or dair them. Now you can do one of two things. If they are up against the wall (because you dair'd them without successfully following the dair with nair) you can drop down and bair them into the wall. If they aren't the best thing to do is drop down, float nair to get the full strength of the nair, and then use the double jump to come back up and ledgehog if necessary. You don't wanna do the bair in this situation, its not strong enough to KO if you opponent is at low percent.

What do you think?

 

[Lumpy..]

um...
i didn't read all of the really long posts (because i'm lazy)
but...
if they're in position to illusion, fc a really fast nair...
if they decide to upB back instead, you still have time to bair...
if they're too low to illusion, dair>nair does hit like every **** time...

a little trick i came up with (idk if anyone else does it)
is to have a turnip and float midrange above the ledge while facing the recovering opponent,
which baits them into sweet spotting, then fast fall and throw the turnip backwards to edge hog...
it works pretty good on fox/falco/falcon/sheik IMO...
also, this doesn't work too many times against smart players...

i'm not that great yet, but if i have a strong point, it's my edgegame...

 

[ss118]

down smash?

Edit: The answer to all peach questions lol

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dsmash does everything. Kills, combos, edgeguards, even spikes (stagespike, but whatever...)

 

[JFox]

Lumpy, thats a cool trick. (the turnip one) Ill have to remember that and try it out next time I'm facing a spacey.

 

[Lumpy..]

yeah, it's just as cool as the classic "drop a turnip to edge hog" thing you can do to marths...
and again, i don't take credit for that lil trick because i got into this game WAY too late to invent any technique haha