Edge-hogging counters

[DeliciousCake]

So I was reading ThePlaintiff's thread about performing a down-B off of the ledge, and was reminded of yesterday:

As of lately I noticed myself falling past ledges on stages in order to perform tethers. Most likely this is because of the fact that mentally I feel as though ZSS's up-B tether won't grab the ledge until I fall below it. Then I started using her forward-b to grab the edge, and problem solved. Now, that isn't what this thread is about, but it's a bit of a segway into what I want to bring up.

Yesterday was VT's bi-weekly tournament, and plenty of people were attempting to edge-hog my ZSS. I managed to whip this technique (if you can really call it a technique) out during a few matches and made some jaws drop. (I really wish I had a video but nobody had recording equipment there, and I just spent about a half hour trying to recreate this with a friend, but to no avail.) Here it is:

Pull out a down-B even if you know you can't completely make it back onto the edge. With any luck if you're at the right height you'll end up spiking your opponent to their death, and you can wall jump backwards in order to get yourself far enough away from the wall again so that you can recover with your tether.

Yes, it sounds very dull, but when you do perform it you'll be amazed at the versatility of ZSS's recovery despite the fact that her tether can be gimped. You'll get a few people saying "holy **** that was awesome" as an added bonus.

I welcome people to open up and post their ways they get around being gimped from edge-hoggers.

 

[Eten]

Yes. At first ZSS recovery felt a bit unorthodox and led me to die in a few seemingly wimpy ways, but as ZSS you have a both a horizontal and a vertical tether recovery with extremely long range, and a third jump with down-b that can go into a sex-kick like attack that can spike and auto-walljump, and of course a quality second jump, and all three can be arranged in any order since none of them put you into a falling animation or prevent another. This makes her recovery extremely flexible and even hard to edge guard, especially for a character who uses a tether.

 

[k4polo]

i posted on another thread that well as you said you have the third jump and down b. The word on the street is that she can be edgehogged easily from what I read on another board. Let them keep thinking that.


Ill add my two cents in i suppose. You can use the side b as an attack and go for a tip to get them off of edgehogging and then you can proceed to recover, You can also use the stun gun as well in air to defend edge hogging, then proceed to recover. You can maybe do two shots..(Given the appropriate distance and timing.)

you can maybe do both a side b and a stun gun for edgehoggers if properly timed i believe.

Of course you can be crazy and go for up B while you are below them then proceed to recover. Me I am crazy enough to do that sometimes lol.

Also if you are below the edge and you being edgehogged, You can also try down b to bounce off the stage and attack with Bair or Fair then recover from stage..
She has alot of versatility.

I personally don't get edgehogged much. I am sure their is much more you can do to defend edgehoggers. WE have a better chance of defending against it then ivysaur or olimar. Poor dudes.

In short, Stun gun/Side B/maybe Up B for long range edgehog counter and Down b off ledge and attack for vertical edgehog counter.

Also if i got something wrong you can tell me. I am still learning.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Only thing I would question is whether or not you can still grab the ledge if you hit them with the stun gun. I love edge-guarding people with the stun down smash, and a few times you can hit them while they're actually holding onto the edge. Would be interesting if you could in fact tether the edge after hitting them with it. Opens up the possibilities of being able to hit them with a baby shot and tether immediately, recover fast, and combo from there.

 

[Kuroneko]

Not trying to be negative, nice to see people trying to adapt with flawed recoveries, but is it really worth it? With all the possibilities of being knocked off the edge, with your second jump and that down B, most of the time I doubt you'll be able to make it to stop them from hogging the edge. I'm not hating on Zamus or anything, I just think it is dumb that all they have to do is occupy the ledge, and her and other's recoveries just shut down.

As for the thought of the stun gun, you probably have a better chance at hitting them with the side B, then up b-ing to grab it yourself. You'll be drifting in an arc and could be hard to syncronize the stun gun to hit the ledge. The side b's end-hitbox would have a higher range vertically to hit them. Either way, good luck on whatever technique develops on hosing down the ledge hoggers. I gave up on ZSS because of it, and you're a better person than I for sticking with her ;D

 

[Snakeee]

I'll answer this with a statement against all edgeguarding. I almost always Up-B with my second jump and I tend to save that jump until I'm close to the ledge. If the opponent grabs the ledge and you still have your second jump and your down b you can usually make it back onto the stage pretty easily. The main thing is to always keep your opponent guessing. Down B walljump like you said is a good choice at times. Sometimes I'll forward B near the ledge to try to prevent an edgeguard, sometimes down B onto the stage. Another awesome thing you can do that I don't think alot of people know about yet is down B onto the stage from the ledge and press it twice fast. This one works great if they're very close to the edge as you gain invincibility and send them flying off the stage. As a last resort you can always try to pull off an edgehogger with Up B and spike them.

With all of these options and more (I'll probably add more to this when I'm not so tired), a smart player really won't get edgehogged or even edgeguarded too often.

 

[P.E]

Pull out a down-B even if you know you can't completely make it back onto the edge. With any luck if you're at the right height you'll end up spiking your opponent to their death, and you can wall jump backwards in order to get yourself far enough away from the wall again so that you can recover with your tether.

On which stage did you play? Doesn´t she automatically hold on to the ledge (I mean, you don´t need a wall jump then).

 

[DeliciousCake]

I believe I managed to pull it off on Battlefield as well as either FD or Yoshi's Story. The point of hitting the wall jump is because most likely after you've spiked your opponent you'll still be in your kick, which will carry you down past the ledge. Also, because I've noticed that ZSS's tether seems to be borked at certain angles (if you're facing the wrong direction from the ledge, past the ledge, etc., this only happens in a few cases, since sometimes it DOES tether) you can use that wall jump to guarantee your tether will hit. The one problem with hitting the wall jump is that on stages with sloping edges (Battlefield and FD) you need to literally get ZSS pressed up against them before she'll wall jump, which already puts you under the edge and unable to tether effectively.

 

[Kuroneko]

Nice thing about FD though is, her wall jump puts her in perfect position to up B. I'm talking about wall jumping from under the dreaded region of the stage. When I played her, it almost always helped perfectly.

 

[fkacyan]

For the record, you can always Wavebounce her UpB to bounce backwards if you're in a bad position. That's neither here nor there, though.

This is something I've done unintentionally a few times. My friend no longer edgehogs - He just spams Din's Fire.