****ed up Marth up-b slowdown

[Rebel581]

Marth has some stupid ****ed up slowdown after using his up-b. I've noticed this since day 1, but didn't know what was causing it. Sometimes it didn't happen. I could never reproduce it either. Well turns out, I couldn't reproduce it, because when I tried to, I never used his up-b (I'm aware that sentence had 3 commas in it. It's why I'm not an english major).

If Marth ledge hops or jumps off the ledge, he has an extra landing lag when he hits the ground. You cannot dash out of this. This will only happen if Marth has used his up-b previously. A little tickmark in the programming resets when Marth touches the ground. The tickmark is set when he uses his up-b.

Sucks to be Marth. The extra lag is about as long as the normal landing lag of the up-b. Meaning that they programmed Marth's code so that he would use his up-b, and then the lag would not be from his up-b. It would be from a completely different source.

On a side note, that would mean if anyone could figure out how to avoid this tickmark, Marth would have no landing lag from his up-b.

Not sure if everyone already knew this, but I've been wondering why since day 1 the game came out. It was most prevalent for me because I ledgehop off the edge to doing nothing. I never noticed it when doing an aerial, because I would stop and have lag from the aerial. I would only notice this when jumping back on the ledge.

Have fun, Marth mainers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This happens to everyone that has lag after an up b, not just Marth. It only happens when you up to the ledge and then ledge hop or jump and and land on the ground. If you do a SH aerial and land then this up land lag is completely negated.

 

[Deg222]

Yep, Kirby gets the effect with his Down B and foward b (in the air).

 

[Rebel581]

After some testing, a SHed aerial does not negate it. The aerial landing lag takes precedence. Any auto-canceled attacks will have no lag. If you finish the aerial before landing though, you still suffer the lag. And only Marth, spacies, Falcon, Ganondorf, Squirtle, Charizard, Olimar and Lucario are affected by this to my knowledge. My other mains, Pit, Sheik, and Ike are not affected by this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you FF with the aerial you will get the lag from that aerial not the up b lag.

This isn't a big deal once you know what's causing it.

Brawl is a ****ed up game with ****ty programming.

Oh well.

Also this seems to only happen with ledge jumps. Whenever I ledge hop I never get the up b lag.

W/e. It's a non-issue once you know how to deal with it.

 

[Rebel581]

Well now that I know it exists. Going to have to break that habit and keep track of it. It happens with both types of ledgejumps/hops though.

And I would prefer you didn't call them ****ty programmers. As doing this is the correct algorithm for what they wanted to do. They did not want grabbing the ledge to remove the lag from these specific up-b's. Whether or you like that they added that lag is a non-issue, as I think the algorithm is creative. I also applaud them for adding that balance. As all this did was make it so I couldn't come back from the edge and pursue the enemy. They wanted me to recover, part of which is the lag from the up-b attack. While annoying when I didn't know about it, and will still be annoying as a competitive gamer. From a game design point of view, I applaud them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You applaud the people who implemented tripping, made sure there was very little hitstun, over looked Snakes abilities to stop any grenades thrown at him in thier tracks and gave him those ridiculous hitboxes?

Blasphemy.

 

[AdmiralComrade]

lol yeah snakes hitboxes are like wtf its not like ur not expecting it but still its hella annoying

 

[Rebel581]

From a game designer point of view, none of it is flawed. From a competitive point of view, there are flaws. And I also said I applauded them on one thing. If you really want to know how I feel about tripping, while it annoys me, it does balance the game.

All chain grabs are screwed up by tripping. Besides the non-moving infinite ones. Those were obviously overlooked, or we're missing something about them.

So what if there's low hitstun? You're acting like you can't hit them and kill them. I'm doing it perfectly fine. Think of it like a burst in Guilty Gear. Airdodge is your get out of jail free card. The only difference is airdodge can be done at any time, while burst can't. Here's the kicker though that differentiates them. Burst knocks the opponent away, while airdodge doesn't. Burst, if used correctly, cannot be punished. Airdodge still can be punished. Especially since you almost always have to commit to airdodging before they make an attack. The airdodge doesn't come out fast enough. Although tbqh, I would've added a bit more lag to the end of the airdodge before you could do another one, but meh. There's enough punishment time. They were going for a more aerial game. I would've also preferred burst, since I like that concept more.

Little hitstun? You main Marth! Just outrange them constantly.

I don't know how Snake stops all grenades thrown at him, as I usually just dodge the grenades. I don't know what Snakes you've played, but all the ones I know cook their grenades or don't toss them directly at me.

Ridiculous hitboxes? Snake vs. Marth is an advantage to Marth if you space correctly. Marth is the only one of my characters who can handle that matchup tbqh. Pit and Sheik don't kill easily enough, and Ike just sucks.

So thanks for putting words into my mouth. I do see merit in their game design choices. I would've done things differently probably, but I like not having control taken out of my hands. Thus, I actually like the lower hitstun. I can understand why others don't though, since it does take true combos out of the game mostly. Don't be a ******* and put words in someone's mouth again though. As originally, I approved of one thing they put in.

And on top of that, everything you mentioned is covered by the game designers. You trashed the programmers. At least learn who does what in game development.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You need to calm down as I sense hostility. I know you don't like me. Guess what? I don't give a ****. Just try to keep things civil ok. Also tripping is an abomination. Why a person would even think to defend it is simply beyond my comprehension and I have no desire to understand the mind of someone who thinks tripping randomly is ok.

You said you hate having control taken away form you correct, which is why you like the little hitstun. Well, wtf does tripping do?

Moving on. Marth vs Snake is not Marth's advantage. It's even at best for Marth. Also alot of characters have moves that either outrange Marth's or have near equal range. So what do you mean when you say outrange them constantly?

Hitstun is a main stay of fighting games, as it allows for combos. It's obvious they didn't get rid of it to balance the game. They got rid of it to cater to a casual market. Basically Ninitendo and Sakurai gave a big **** you to competitive gamers.

This ledgehop crap is dumb. It's hard enough to make it back agianst a good opponent without either getting gimped or taking damage, but when I ledge jump I get up b lag? You are PUNISHING me for getting back to the stage?

Are you serious?

For the record, I despise Nintendo and I could care less who does what for them.
They are a soulless money grubbing company in my eyes who have forgotten the people that supported them through the N64 and Gamecube years when they were getting trounced by the competition.

**** them.

 

[Rebel581]

You need to calm down as I sense hostility. I know you don't like me. Guess what? I don't give a ****. Just try to keep things civil ok. Also tripping is an abomination. Why a person would even think to defend it is simply beyond my comprehension and I have no desire to understand the mind of someone who thinks tripping randomly is ok.

You said you hate having control taken away form you correct, which is why you like the little hitstun. Well, wtf does tripping do?

Moving on. Marth vs Snake is not Marth's advantage. It's even at best for Marth. Also alot of characters have moves that either outrange Marth's or have near equal range. So what do you mean when you say outrange them constantly?

Hitstun is a main stay of fighting games, as it allows for combos. It's obvious they didn't get rid of it to balance the game. They got rid of it to cater to a casual market. Basically Ninitendo and Sakurai gave a big **** you to competitive gamers.

This ledgehop crap is dumb. It's hard enough to make it back agianst a good opponent without either getting gimped or taking damage, but when I ledge jump I get up b lag? You are PUNISHING me for getting back to the stage?

Are you serious?

You got why I get pissed at tripping. From a game balance on chain grabbing, it helps. I also believe it's an abomination due to it taking control away from the player (randomly too, it's not even a good reason to take away control), and the other bad effects it has. If someone told me they could remove tripping, I'd be on board just like you in about three seconds. And it would only take that long due to reaction time and shock that such a thing is possible.

I heard from SamuraiPanda that different Marth styles did differently against Snake. My Marth style does especially well against Snake. As I don't believe it's a **** matchup, but I believe my Marth has a 6-4 in it.

And you're pretty much right that it is a big **** you to competitive gamers. I'm actually pissed at Sakurai too. As while I like the new airdodging and the larger sense of control, it sometimes feels like I can't punish the airdodge. It's also semi-annoying that the hitstun is so low sometimes. This makes Sheik's ftilt generally useless after the second hit.

I'm mostly undecided on the mechanics though. As I can understand why he made the decisions, and still love the game. But there are things I believe could have been done better.

I also get really pissed when anyone disses game programmers, especially if it's not their fault. The things you're complaining about are all the designers.

Also, you're right that I don't particularly like you. But that's probably uncalled for anyways. Can we end this and start on a new foot?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sure why not. I never knew why you didn't like me, since I don't think I ever really insulted you or anything. And If I did then I apologize.

And I didn't mean to offend you with my comments about Nintendo. It's just that thier business decisions in the last few years have earned my animosity.

 

[Rebel581]

Eh, I can't remember exactly why either. It probably had something to do with saying some mechanic was stupid or saying Brawl was a bad game. When someone makes a statement, I almost always take the opposite statement. Not really sure why I do.

I'm also not completely sure if I like the lack of hit stun, or the lack of having to press that god****ed L button every time I did an aerial. My left pointer finger loves Brawl, as it's not going to get carpal tunnel from playing the game.

And I agree with their business decisions being crap. All of their games have seemed to lose the soul in them. I feel Zelda: TP had zero soul in it whatsoever. I also feel that way a bit with Brawl, but it's definitely the least of any of their games. I also think that the color white and the general box design of the Wii turns me away from the games.

I have zero idea how the Wii is so successful with so much shovelware. It should be the next PS2 with its amount of sales. The only thing is, the PS2 had good games.

 

[gallax]

when you guys are hanging off the ledge with marth what is you main use of getting back onto the stage when the other player is trying to stop you from getting back on? i know it varies, but i try and do a fair of nair. if not i airdodge and then take it from there.

 

[Rebel581]

I commonly try to do a fair, but I don't suggest doing that at all. It generally leads to a variety of bad situations. Nair can catch them off guard, but if it doesn't, it has the same problems as fair. Marth has a very weak game when it comes to getting off the ledge. Standing up and moving ASAP is generally the best situation. Something I haven't tried yet though, is jumping off the ledge and as soon as the first opportunity to arrives, side b, b, down b. Which is really only possible do to the lower amount of lag on jumping off the ledge.

That's all theory, because I usually just fair or nair off the ledge in reality.