Easier wavedashing?

[Shins]

So don't hate me for this, also mods if this In the wrong spot please move it, but what if PMBR made the window for wavedashing longer so that it would be easier? Thoughts?

 

[deftinw0lf]

It's already pretty easy, it's just a timing that you have to get down to muscle memory.
Just keep practicing and you'll get it, there's no need to make the window longer.

 

[9bit]

I'd just love it if they normalized the timing across all characters, but that might just be me being lazy.

 

[deftinw0lf]

I think that might have something to do with the jump animations, I don't know that there'd be an easy way to do that?

 

[turtletank]

Impossible, unless they added more startup lag to short hops (a bad idea) there is no way of increasing the window. It really does become easy with practice though, just keep trying and you'll get the hang of it.

It only took me like, 1 hour of practice before I succeeded and I've been improving since. It becomes second nature after a while, believe me.

 

[JB IV]

Frames for jumping are character specific (below) and making them all equal could change match-ups.
Quote: RocketPSIence said: ↑

Alright guys, I went into BrawlBox and got how long each animation took. Here is my findings:​

JumpSquat Frame Data:​

​

captain - 6​

dedede - 5​

diddy - 5​

donkey - 7​

falco - 5​

fox - 5​

gamewatch - 6​

ganon - 6​

ike - 8​

kirby - 5​

koopa - 9​

link - 8​

lucario - 6​

lucas - 6​

luigi - 6​

mario - 6​

marth - 6​

metaknight - 5​

ness - 6​

peach - 6​

pikachu - 5​

pikmin - 6​

pit - 6​

pokefushigisou - 6​

pokelizardon - 8​

pokezenigame - 5​

popo - 5​

purin - 6​

robot - 6​

samus - 5​

sheik - 5​

snake - 10​

sonic - 8​

szerosuit - 5​

toonlink - 8​

wario - 7​

wolf - 7​

yoshi - 7​

zelda - 7​

​

Remember this is the length of the animation, so when you are calculating the first actionable frame, you have to add one.​

 

[GMaster171]

Umm...
I'm sorry to say, but only like one or two of those are correct, the rest are incorrect...
Theres a list in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/p-m-2-5-statisitics-list-yep-its-back.335019/
It lists jumpsquat for each character.

On the topic of changing timing, this would require either a change in jumpsquat, or a small time where you would stall before jumping. One would change muscle memory for a large portion of the cast, the other would make the game feel clunky and worse.

 

[Renji64]

I'm not too good at using it in battles but practice with luigi that is what i did man i love his wavedash.

 

[JB IV]

Oops. I got that from the thread COMPLETE Frame Data Directory.
I checked the date... Dec 15, 2009.

 

[KayB]

Instead of making shortcuts, practice until you get the timing right. Its not like its impossible anyway.

 

[Paradoxium]

Wavedashing is very simple, it just needs practice. Go to training mode and try it out. All you have to do is hold your control stick down and angled to the right/left, and just press x then r. It's all about the timing when pressing r, and it varies between characters. In other words, the timing is in the amount of time that passes after you press x.
It is simple, it just sounds complicated when I try to describe it lol

 

[Shins]

Lol, should I practice with my main (ness) or the easiest to do it with (luigi)? I've heard very mixed responses

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that needs to be done for wavedashing is separating the button inputs between L and R shield so we can wavedash out of shield more reliably.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

Lol, should I practice with my main (ness) or the easiest to do it with (luigi)? I've heard very mixed responses

Learn it for your main, it'll help you out more for learning when to use wavedashing.

 

[NightShadow6]

Enough practice and you'll have the muscle memory down, just give it about 2 weeks.

 

[smashbro29]

I think the options opened up by wavedashing/wavelanding/etc is fantastic but the execution is so silly. I feel as if it's justified in Melee as it was a "mistake" but seeing as it's a core mechanic in P:M I would like to see it become very simple to actually perform.

I don't expect them to do that, they seem pretty hell bent on copying Melee in certain aspects and this is one of them.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's not really possible to simplify the mechanic without removing some or most of its depth. Sorry.

 

[smashbro29]

It's not really possible to simplify the mechanic without removing some or most of its depth. Sorry.

That's like the first valid thing I've heard in response other than "get better", please elaborate on that point I'm very interested.

 

[KayB]

I think the options opened up by wavedashing/wavelanding/etc is fantastic but the execution is so silly. I feel as if it's justified in Melee as it was a "mistake" but seeing as it's a core mechanic in P:M I would like to see it become very simple to actually perform.

I don't expect them to do that, they seem pretty hell bent on copying Melee in certain aspects and this is one of them.

Are you implying that what you're saying is a valid point? Cause its not. Saying something sounds or feels awkward to you is not enough to make an argument. There's no reason to simplify it since its not impossible to do, and its button execution does not hinder the execution of other moves. Get better is honestly the best thing to tell you because its already not that hard to do in the first place and making it easier is only putting a lollipop in the mouths of new players who don't want to put the time and effort to learn it.

 

[smashbro29]

Are you implying that what you're saying is a valid point? Cause its not. Saying something sounds or feels awkward to you is not enough to make an argument. There's no reason to simplify it since its not impossible to do, and its button execution does not hinder the execution of other moves. Get better is honestly the best thing to tell you because its already not that hard to do in the first place and making it easier is only putting a lollipop in the mouths of new players who don't want to put the time and effort to learn it.

Hitting L to throw yourself into the ground to propel yourself forward or backward is not good design. Its not intuitive to learn at all.

 

[Paradoxium]

Hitting L to throw yourself into the ground to propel yourself forward or backward is not good design. Its not intuitive to learn at all.

Hey, that was what dodging was originally for. And it is an awkward situation, it was a discovered game exploit, and those are never convenient. But as I see it, I don't know of any other button combinations that would work, it seems to be the most convinient, but then there is the possibility that I have done it for so long that it has become second nature. It's a very wired subject to touch upon. But thats my 2 cents anyhow

 

[KayB]

Hitting L to throw yourself into the ground to propel yourself forward or backward is not good design. Its not intuitive to learn at all.

Then what, are you arguing that wavedashing should be performed some other way? Making it easier doesn't fix the supposed problem you have with this mechanic.

 

[smashbro29]

Then what, are you arguing that wavedashing should be performed some other way? Making it easier doesn't fix the supposed problem you have with this mechanic.

Well just off the top of my head how about a slide button? Press X to wavedash. The problem I have is that it's a bit too hard to learn especially when it at first makes no sense and in Melee it was a happy accident but now that it's in P:M as a legit thing and is considered for balance and tweaks it should be a less silly thing to perform.

It's a very wired subject to touch upon. But thats my 2 cents anyhow

I don't understand why, I've seen people be less defensive about the country they live in, it's just a discussion.

 

[XalchemistX]

Practice with Luigi or Squirtle, and don't lower the speed so you can get use to the actual speed.

 

[KayB]

Well just off the top of my head how about a slide button? Press X to wavedash. The problem I have is that it's a bit too hard to learn especially when it at first makes no sense and in Melee it was a happy accident but now that it's in P:M as a legit thing and is considered for balance and tweaks it should be a less silly thing to perform.

What's your gauge in silliness? In all honesty its not that hard to learn and its not so unbelievable that it makes it impossible to learn. If you try to comprehend every mechanic in a game of course it won't make sense.

 

[smashbro29]

What's your gauge in silliness? In all honesty its not that hard to learn and its not so unbelievable that it makes it impossible to learn. If you try to comprehend every mechanic in a game of course it won't make sense.

There's no real guage but it's just not something that can be organically picked up like comboing or short hopping and it goes against the whole "easy to learn hard to master" thing.

 

[KayB]

There's no real guage but it's just not something that can be organically picked up like comboing or short hopping and it goes against the whole "easy to learn hard to master" thing.

I honestly can't relate. This seems too biased for an argument for either side to be called correct.

 

[smashbro29]

I honestly can't relate. This seems too biased for an argument for either side to be called correct.

That's honestly kind of a cop out, I'm not afraid of being wrong I just want to better understand things. My thought process is like: if I were making a new smash game and saw this mechanic added depth and made things more fun would I integrate it in the same "glitchy" way or try to improve it?

 

[KayB]

That's honestly kind of a cop out, I'm not afraid of being wrong I just want to better understand things.

But that's the point; it's difficult to be right or wrong. You say it feels awkward, I say it doesn't. That's where each of the basis of our points lie, and it's entirely opinionated. So far none of us has said anything that can be proved better than the other, so that's why I feel that this argument is going nowhere.

My thought process is like: if I were making a new smash game and saw this mechanic added depth and made things more fun would I integrate it in the same "glitchy" way or try to improve it?

Don't really see it as glitchy. And making it easier does not improve anything, nor does it necessarily make it more intuitive. Especially when 90% of the competitive Smash community knows how to wavedash well and see no problems with it.

 

[smashbro29]

But that's the point; it's difficult to be right or wrong. You say it feels awkward, I say it doesn't. That's where each of the basis of our points lie, and it's entirely opinionated. So far none of us has said anything that can be proved better than the other, so that's why I feel that this argument is going nowhere.


Don't really see it as glitchy. And making it easier does not improve anything, nor does it necessarily make it more intuitive. Especially when 90% of the competitive Smash community knows how to wavedash well and see no problems with it.

Well I can use other games as an example, no other widely accepted game has something so integral to the "real" way to play so locked out by a skill barrier.

 

[CyberZixx]

Well I can use other games as an example, no other widely accepted game has something so integral to the "real" way to play so locked out by a skill barrier.

Not true. Movement in Tekken requires advance application as well. Korean back dash canceling and wavedashing are hard to learn in that game.

 

[smashbro29]

Not true. Movement in Tekken requires advance application as well. Korean back dash canceling and wavedashing are hard to learn in that game.

Alright good point, not exactly thinking about this 24/7 but it's definitely something interesting to discuss though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@smashbro
Wavedashing isn't part of playing the game, it's part of mastering it. It's only important in a competitive or hardcore setting, simply playing something only requires a casual understanding.

"press x to wavedash"
what distance? what about wavelanding onto a platform from below? from above? and what if you want to airdodge back to the ground? there are dozens of different specific things that the action of jumping, then airdodging back to a grounded state refers to, each with a different control stick angle and delay between button presses, if the jump is even part of the action at all instead of coming off a platform or off being hit into the air and just need to airdodge to waveland without jumping, and there can't be a button for only one of them and expect it to make things easier, because it can't and won't. It would make them harder, because you'd have a crutch for one and only one of them, and even if it was the most commonly used one among them, it wouldn't be by much, and suddenly when you need to learn the next few most important applications of the analog airdodge, you're floundering for reasons to get yourself to do so because you won't gain as much from it as you would from learning it as a single organic application of jumping and then airdodging.

Really it's not that hard, it's just drilling muscle memory into your brain (this is in fact where muscle memory resides, not the muscles lol). By the time you master your main, which you will never because nobody ever really does, and if they do, nobody ever thinks or knows that they do because they assume the metagame can progress yet further, but by the time you technically master your main, exluding human error as everybody has a level of inconsistency, you will have the timing down for wavelanding/dashing out of every frame of your character's shorthop and fullhop duration, and it won't feel like separate things that you had to drill into your brain, they feel like reactions to your character's and the platform's positions with an organic understanding of your character's physics and the airdodge's physics.

tl;dr no a single button won't work, there's no way around it because it literally cannot get any simpler than it is, jesus christ it's only two ****ing buttons and a direction and if you wanna know why it can't be easier read the god damn post


@shins
As for practicing, Luigi and Ness probably have the same jump-start, 4 frames sounds right for both of them, meaning their wavedashing timing would be exactly the same. But that's the only thing that'll be the same. Wavelanding will feel very different for each of them because of differences in falling speeds and jump physics. Since you might as well learn all your applications of analog airdodges at once so that they blend into each other fairly fluidly, just go with using your main.

 

[smashbro29]

@smashbro
Wavedashing isn't part of playing the game, it's part of mastering it. It's only important in a competitive or hardcore setting, simply playing something only requires a casual understanding.

"press x to wavedash"
what distance? what about wavelanding onto a platform from below? from above? and what if you want to airdodge back to the ground? there are dozens of different specific things that the action of jumping, then airdodging back to a grounded state refers to, each with a different control stick angle and delay between button presses, if the jump is even part of the action at all instead of coming off a platform or off being hit into the air and just need to airdodge to waveland without jumping, and there can't be a button for only one of them and expect it to make things easier, because it can't and won't. It would make them harder, because you'd have a crutch for one and only one of them, and even if it was the most commonly used one among them, it wouldn't be by much, and suddenly when you need to learn the next few most important applications of the analog airdodge, you're floundering for reasons to get yourself to do so because you won't gain as much from it as you would from learning it as a single organic application of jumping and then airdodging.

Really it's not that hard, it's just drilling muscle memory into your brain (this is in fact where muscle memory resides, not the muscles lol). By the time you master your main, which you will never because nobody ever really does, and if they do, nobody ever thinks or knows that they do because they assume the metagame can progress yet further, but by the time you technically master your main, exluding human error as everybody has a level of inconsistency, you will have the timing down for wavelanding/dashing out of every frame of your character's shorthop and fullhop duration, and it won't feel like separate things that you had to drill into your brain, they feel like reactions to your character's and the platform's positions with an organic understanding of your character's physics and the airdodge's physics.

tl;dr no a single button won't work, there's no way around it because it literally cannot get any simpler than it is, jesus christ it's only two ****ing buttons and a direction and if you wanna know why it can't be easier read the god damn post

When balance and character design have it in mind it's part of the core game, sorry.

Taking the hypothetical idea I mention right off the top of my head and scrutinize it, good job man.

I'd like to more learn what the ATs add, and how/if we can get the depth without the muscle memory or at least not as much muscle memory or at least something that would seem normal to the average video game player.

I'm cool with discussion, I'm not close minded but I feel like I'm talking to a huge brick wall that just yells back "because Melee" and they don't want those filthy casuals to be able to do anything without running the risk at carpal tunnel. Tap X/Y C-stick down press L at a very specific frame and the jump again and dodge into the ground immediately is not intuitive look at the controller it's like a game all itself.

Yes if you keep doing something it becomes muscle memory thank you professor. Single button was one idea, I'm into advancement not shutting everything new down.

 

[Shins]

what if they just made it so that everyone could wavedash as easily as luigi?

 

[Medaka444]

Normally, if a non-essential technique is too difficult for me to perform (and it is), I just ignore it. Good thing I plan to never go competitive above a local level. I do know that I really hate it when pros say, "It's not that hard to do", as if everyone has the exact same level of skill.

Mostly, I don't have the reaction speed to do anything useful in the time it takes to WD. I'm also working on SHFFLing, which is also nearly impossible for me to do at this time (I've owned Melee for about a month). I have terrible reaction speed and memory (so, I forget most of my arsenal), yet I'm a fan of Fighting games. Wonderful.

I find it hard to believe that Melee runs at 60 FPS. I say this because I can successfully L-cancel (it's strange to call it that when I rarely use that button), and I know I can't do anything in 1/6th of a second.

 

[Kally Wally]

When balance and character design have it in mind it's part of the core game, sorry.

Taking the hypothetical idea I mention right off the top of my head and scrutinize it, good job man.

And why not? He provided a great many points explaining not only why a one-button wavedash wouldn't work, but also why every piece of the wavedash (jump, analog control, airdodge) need to be separate from each other in order to maintain all of it's functions and depth.

I'd like to more learn what the ATs add, and how/if we can get the depth without the muscle memory or at least not as much muscle memory or at least something that would seem normal to the average video game player.

ATs primarily add skill indexing and finer character control.

I'm all for accessibility, but I'm thinking it's more of an "if" than a "how." I can think of one way to make wavedashing easier, off the top of my head:

A buffer. Brawl has a 10-frame input buffer for everything. Basically, if you input something 10 or fewer frames early, it "queues up" and is used as soon as possible. If this could be applied exclusively to air dodges during jumpstart frames, that would make the timing window for wavedashing more forgiving.

This is not a good solution, however, because it does nothing to solve the main issue ('wavedashing is unintuitive') while reducing the skill-indexing aspect (which may or may not be good, depending on your stance.)

I'm cool with discussion, I'm not close minded but I feel like I'm talking to a huge brick wall that just yells back "because Melee" and they don't want those filthy casuals to be able to do anything without running the risk at carpal tunnel. Tap X/Y C-stick down press L at a very specific frame and the jump again and dodge into the ground immediately is not intuitive look at the controller it's like a game all itself.

This is just plain rude. It's not about "filthy casuals," it's about there not being a more intuitive way of doing it. If they didn't want "filthy casuals" playing PM, they wouldn't have allowed Diddy Kong to pick up items during his dash attack by pressing Z. Nobody ever does that, because wavedash pickup is better in pretty much all situations, but they realized that not everyone knows how to do that.

PM is a tech-heavy game, so to play at maximum efficiency you need to have good tech skill and knowledge. This doesn't mean the PMBR has disregarded less skilled and/or casual players - it's just not specifically designed for them.

Yes if you keep doing something it becomes muscle memory thank you professor. Single button was one idea, I'm into advancement not shutting everything new down.

Again, I'm all for accessibility. It's something that fighting games need more of, and Smash is great at it. Still, accessibility is a gateway. At some point, you need to learn how to do all the fancy tricks if you want to compete. Is this good for the game? Would it be better to do things another way?

Maybe.

Normally, if a non-essential technique is too difficult for me to perform (and it is), I just ignore it. Good thing I plan to never go competitive above a local level. I do know that I really hate it when pros say, "It's not that hard to do", as if everyone has the exact same level of skill.

Not everyone has the same level of skill, but I believe that everyone can.

Mostly, I don't have the reaction speed to do anything useful in the time it takes to WD. I'm also working on SHFFLing, which is also nearly impossible for me to do at this time (I've owned Melee for about a month). I have terrible reaction speed and memory (so, I forget most of my arsenal), yet I'm a fan of Fighting games. Wonderful.

The only way to get better at thinking fast is to put yourself in situations where fast thinking is necessary.

I find it hard to believe that Melee runs at 60 FPS. I say this because I can successfully L-cancel (it's strange to call it that when I rarely use that button), and I know I can't do anything in 1/6th of a second.

And yet you clearly can. You may not be able to react to many types of stimulus in that time, but if you can L-cancel consistently, obviously you can do something in 1/6th of a second.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Wavedashing is not an extremely difficult thing to do as is. It just takes practice to learn the muscle memory and experience to know when it's useful and when it's just flashy. Also, as mentioned before, it's not really necessary until you get into higher level play.

It's already a one button + direction action once you've jumped, I don't know how you could possibly simplify it more than that without forcing players to lose buttons that they might have more use for as a different function. X for instance is the button that I use for jump canceling moves, so leaving it as jump works better.

I can understand the frustration with not necessarily being able to do it consistently and wanting a simplification, but there are reasons that things like this are called advanced techniques. To change it to a one button command reminds me of the oversimplified Capcom vs SNK 2 EO on Gamecube, where moves were mapped to the C-stick, taking away any skill you'd have needed in order to perform moves with even slightly difficult commands.

Fighting games should be accessible, not simplified to the point that there's no technique or depth though. You should have to work in order to get the controls down, to learn the moves and the techniques, as well as the timing for performing more universal techs with every character. The way I figure it, the character you're playing had to work for their abilities, we should have to work a little bit/a lot in order to bring out their potential.

 

[smashbro29]

And why not? He provided a great many points explaining not only why a one-button wavedash wouldn't work, but also why every piece of the wavedash (jump, analog control, airdodge) need to be separate from each other in order to maintain all of it's functions and depth.

This is semantics, I'm gonna drop this bit it's not going anywhere useful.

ATs primarily add skill indexing and finer character control.

I'm all for accessibility, but I'm thinking it's more of an "if" than a "how." I can think of one way to make wavedashing easier, off the top of my head:

A buffer. Brawl has a 10-frame input buffer for everything. Basically, if you input something 10 or fewer frames early, it "queues up" and is used as soon as possible. If this could be applied exclusively to air dodges during jumpstart frames, that would make the timing window for wavedashing more forgiving.

This is not a good solution, however, because it does nothing to solve the main issue ('wavedashing is unintuitive') while reducing the skill-indexing aspect (which may or may not be good, depending on your stance.)

This is something I think I'm not being very clear on, there's two approaches to this "how do we rework the current thing" and "what does the current thing give us and how can we give that to more people?" I'm leaning towards option 2.

If no depth is lost (I wish it weren't against the rule to mention L-cancelling) making it easier isn't bad, most things in traditional fighters serve a purpose you charge Sonic Boom for a reason you do a 360 for a piledriver for a reason it all works intot he basic framework put in at the start it's never shocking like the stuff in Melee.

It's not about "filthy casuals," it's about there not being a more intuitive way of doing it. If they didn't want "filthy casuals" playing PM, they wouldn't have allowed Diddy Kong to pick up items during his dash attack by pressing Z. Nobody ever does that, because wavedash pickup is better in pretty much all situations, but they realized that not everyone knows how to do that.

PM is a tech-heavy game, so to play at maximum efficiency you need to have good tech skill and knowledge. This doesn't mean the PMBR has disregarded less skilled and/or casual players - it's just not specifically designed for them.

Saying P:M is a tech heavy game is not a good argument I'm saying I feel like a lot of the muscle memory/skill/whatever is a bit excessive some of it bordering on unnecessary, no one has even attempted to try and see if the same depth can be had with less carpal tunnel and for some reason that's seen as a bad thing.

Again, I'm all for accessibility. It's something that fighting games need more of, and Smash is great at it. Still, accessibility is a gateway. At some point, you need to learn how to do all the fancy tricks if you want to compete. Is this good for the game? Would it be better to do things another way?

This is where I usually "lose" these things, it's called Project:M not Project: Perfect Smash Bros, I just see it as wasted potential to copy another game when even the small changes show the team is capable of so much more. I personally think Brawl+ had a lot of positive aspects to it like automatic lag cancelling that kept it fast and had the default increased speed of the game in mind.

 

[Yoki]

Saying P:M is a tech heavy game is not a good argument I'm saying I feel like a lot of the muscle memory/skill/whatever is a bit excessive some of it bordering on unnecessary, no one has even attempted to try and see if the same depth can be had with less carpal tunnel and for some reason that's seen as a bad thing.

Actually, the devs have attempted and succeeded in making techs easier without reducing depth: Input Assist in the Settings menu. It should be more than enough, but if it isn't, you can also get the wifi codeset, turn on Buffer and set it to a comfortable level (Input Assist is 30%, or 3 frames, and I think it's ideal). That way you get a large window to input frame-perfect wavedashes, and the only difficulty is tilting your stick in the right angle to travel the distance you want to, which only takes a few minutes to master.