early kills w/ uair at 40%

[icraq]

Has anyone noticed they're getting odd early kills off the top? I have videos of me killing a Greninja on an omega stage off the top with it at 44%, pretty crazy stuff. I've kind of dug into it and I think I know why.

It has to do with Luma's uair. It knocks the opponent at a 45 degree angle towards Rosalina with the intention of forcing the opponent into her uair. Like most multihit attacks it's designed to continue keeping your opponent locked in the move and these types of hitboxes usually have some interesting properties.

Luma's uair has pretty bad knockback growth, but very decent base knockback. This means that if you hit your opponent while they're high enough, you'll guarantee their death even at low percentages, because Luma's uair always does the same amount of knockback, and it's pretty good!

Some things I'm not sure is whether or not Rosalina's uair connecting affects it. I feel like it's best if you miss with Rosa's uair and hit with just Luma's, that's where I've gotten the best results. When Luma knocks the opponent into Rosalina's uair it changes from a 45 degree angle to straight up, which might matter, I'm not sure, I don't know if knockback stacks or what happens.

Vectoring being removed for vertical attacks definitely has had a play in this. I know this had happened in the past but most of the time people are vectoring straight down when they're in the air so it was much more infrequent. Certain stages with high platforms like Battlefield, Prism, Town and City, Duck Hunt, etc, all benefit from this.

 

[Parcheesy]

You're definitely on to something. I wish I saved this video, but ended up killing a Samus off the top at something crazy like 12%. If you could find out which combination is best for these early kills ( Solo Rosalina / Solo Luma / Both ), I think it would help out our group here quite a bit.

edit:
If it turns out that Luma is the one scoring these kills, there might be some situations where using Launch Star to reach skyward opponents only to bump them up with Luma might actually be a reasonable strategy.

 

[icraq]

If it turns out that Luma is the one scoring these kills, there might be some situations where using Launch Star to reach skyward opponents only to bump them up with Luma might actually be a reasonable strategy.

lol ive been keeping that idea secret, i was planning on doing that in a combo video some day, but it's super hard to do. the best use of it i've seen is actually using the horizontal launch star to hit them off the side with a nair or something, after an fthrow

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've noticed that Luma's attacks have unusually high knockback, but do little damage compared to Rosalina. Dair is another move that can kill really early like this, although usually from an edgeguard situation.

I'm not entirely convinced that the purpose is to hit targets into Rosalina's hitboxes, mostly because as a puppet I find it hard to believe that Luma's moves weren't designed with at least the possibility in mind of not being linked to Rosalina. But either way the effect is obvious, Luma is deadly.

 

[Parcheesy]

Might be a bit off topic, as it's not really an 'early kill', but it was fun regardless. In practice, it's kinda hard to knock them that high at low percent, while simultaneously never leaving the ground. The high knockback on luma's up tilt might work, and I'll have to keep trying.

{ Oh hey, a Bowserside just resulted in a Suddendeath. I thought that wasn't a thing? }

 

[icraq]

I've noticed that Luma's attacks have unusually high knockback, but do little damage compared to Rosalina. Dair is another move that can kill really early like this, although usually from an edgeguard situation.

I'm not entirely convinced that the purpose is to hit targets into Rosalina's hitboxes, mostly because as a puppet I find it hard to believe that Luma's moves weren't designed with at least the possibility in mind of not being linked to Rosalina. But either way the effect is obvious, Luma is deadly.

yeah dair is freakishly strong, i hope they never change luma's dair. it gets so many low percent kills, i love it. and i love that it autocancels in a SH. it's really become one of my favorite moves.

take a look at luma's uair though, it knocks them back exactly into rosa's uair every time. why would it send them at an angle towards Rosa otherwise? if luma is positioned in front of rosa in it's normal state and if you hit with luma first in the uair, it almost always knocks them into rosalina's uair. i believe it was fully intentional, and i think the fact that it has fixed knockback at low percents is also so it guarantees it hits directly into rosa's uair.

i dont think all of luma's moves do this, actually, the only other move that knocks them into rosalina's moves is fair, luma sends em upwards. it's also a move with high base knockback and low knockback growth. it's always funny to get kills off hte top with it though. honestly luma's fair kind of drives me nuts if i'm trying to spike someone, but i really like it autocanceled, you can combo into uair very easily at most percents, and usmash at low percents. reminds me a bit of falco's shine in melee, i even tried seeing if i could pillar with luma's autocancel fair into dair, but it didnt work sadly. it does combo, though, just doesn't meteor effectively at hte percents that it combos at.

also @ Parcheesy lol, okay that was amazing. this needs to be a thing. i've tried pretty much every vertical sending move to try and hit with uair in the past and none seem to really guarantee it but i gotta say, it's the flashiest kill rosa has. but try fthrow into the horizontal upB and nair, it's totally cheesy but it works at some percents and it's so flashy it's worth the risk.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Might be a bit off topic, as it's not really an 'early kill', but it was fun regardless. In practice, it's kinda hard to knock them that high at low percent, while simultaneously never leaving the ground. The high knockback on luma's up tilt might work, and I'll have to keep trying.

{ Oh hey, a Bowserside just resulted in a Suddendeath. I thought that wasn't a thing? }

...why is the video upside down?

 

[Parcheesy]

also @ Parcheesy lol, okay that was amazing. this needs to be a thing. i've tried pretty much every vertical sending move to try and hit with uair in the past and none seem to really guarantee it but i gotta say, it's the flashiest kill rosa has. but try fthrow into the horizontal upB and nair, it's totally cheesy but it works at some percents and it's so flashy it's worth the risk.

I'll try it, although it's definitely not something I'm planning on including in my normal gameplay, although I have to say...I like my characters extra cheesy.

I don't wanna spoil too much, but I found a tech that may be significantly more flashy and even more useless. Will post something about it in general if I manage to get it to work.

...why is the video upside down?

Yeah...I don't know. It rights itself when you hit play on my screen. I'm pretty awful at this uploading stuff.

 

[Garde Noir]

It's actually two attacks hitting at once that does this, Luma is getting the knockback upwards, and the halo is acting as a lower gravity-- you can also see it momentum cancel downairs from Greninja, Sheik and ZSS. It's the combo of hitting BOTH that sends them high enough, at your maximum jump to Star KO

 

[icraq]

I don't wanna spoil too much, but I found a tech that may be significantly more flashy and even more useless. Will post something about it in general if I manage to get it to work.

i'm dying to know what it is now

It's actually two attacks hitting at once that does this, Luma is getting the knockback upwards, and the halo is acting as a lower gravity-- you can also see it momentum cancel downairs from Greninja, Sheik and ZSS. It's the combo of hitting BOTH that sends them high enough, at your maximum jump to Star KO

i disagree, i believe it's definitely related to luma's fixed uair knockback, whether or not if rosa's connects with it actually adds to the knockback, im not sure, but her knockback on her uair is very poor at low percents, whereas luma's knockback on low percents is quite high on it's own. i'm actually under the impression right now that hitting with both uairs actually lessens chances of an early kill near the top, and it seems better to just hit with luma's. at the very least i think hitting with luma's uair first and then rosalina's is best. but i dont know how knockback stacks in this game, does it just go by whichever move hit first, then add any extra velocity along the way? so confusing.

edit: you actually might be somewhat onto something Garde, I'm already doubting myself. I think the important part is Luma's uair connecting, because if it knocks them into Rosa's uair it sends them more straight up but with the same knockback. I don't know, I could be way off. It's just really hard to tell.

 

[T0MMY]

This game has some odd knockback on some attacks.
I discovered the Piston Punch glitch that KO'd a CPU Fox out of a F-air, so dead about 20%
I was KO'd by Pit's F-Special at 77% and the next stock it was 44% Very weird.

Sad thing is people seem to jump on the bandwagon as a reason to ban a character, most especially used against ALL the Mii fighters despite the One Inch Punch not being especially good (it stops a KO from happening with me more times than it'll help facilitate a low-% KO). So I'm sure Rosa isn't going to be witch-hunted over something like this, but Mii is still being hounded, made me more of a Mii main just to defend the character.

 

[icraq]

I just started messing around with her fair too, if you angle it right you can always hit with Luma, and it can kill in the off the top of the screen much sooner than it can kill horizontally. On the ground I'm killing Charizard off the top around 180% just using Luma's fair. If it knocks them into Rosa's fair it screws everything up.

Definitely some weird knockback in this game T0MMY.

 

[Karinole]

From my experience Luma can cause some very savage knockback hits on all of rosie's aerials leading to early kills if spaced properly. I've been trying to do some tests in game by spamming aerials to see at what percents I can get random kills with them at.

 

[icraq]

From my experience Luma can cause some very savage knockback hits on all of rosie's aerials leading to early kills if spaced properly. I've been trying to do some tests in game by spamming aerials to see at what percents I can get random kills with them at.

All tested in training mode on FD in middle of stage against Mario. Solo Luma kill percents. Cpu level 1. It seems they can DI randomly, so everything I'd say is within 3-5% accurate. 3DS version. All uncharged unless otherwise specified.

Uair: 305%
Dair: 184% (facing towards mario, first frame. If you hit with Rosalina's dair as well Mario will live. Rosa's dair negates some horizontal KB here, or something strange. Inconsistent results when both hit, I don't get it.)
Fair: 169%
Bair: 205% (better if both hit)
Nair: first hit 182%, second hit 220%
Dsmash: first hit 188%, second hit 160% (I wasn't aware the last hit killed so much sooner!)
Usmash: 129%
Fsmash: 119%
Ftilt: 250%
Dtilt: 288%
Utilt: 140%! Pretty good, just barely weaker than Rosa's uncharged usmash.
Jab finisher uppercut: 166%
Jab finisher spin: 240%
NeutralB: uncharged: 294% fully charged: 103%
Dash attack: 895% (lol)
Starbits almost kill at 999%.. So close.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ icraq : Just so you know, the Luma's forward smash actually has two different hitboxes. The knockback becomes more vertical if the Luma hits with its body, instead of its arm.

 

[icraq]

@ icraq : Just so you know, the Luma's forward smash actually has two different hitboxes. The knockback becomes more vertical if the Luma hits with its body, instead of its arm.

Is that why sometime it sends people nearly straight up and they survive at like 130%? That's interesting! Thank you, I wasn't sure what was causing that, I thought it had to do with Rosa's fsmash. Luma definitely is an oddball.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is that why sometime it sends people nearly straight up and they survive at like 130%? That's interesting! Thank you, I wasn't sure what was causing that, I thought it had to do with Rosa's fsmash. Luma definitely is an oddball.

Yeah I did the tests in Training when I discovered that extra hitbox. I also noticed that Guardian Luma has two different hitboxes as well, as it dealt more damage and delivered stronger knockback to opponents with its legs than with its body.

 

[Iron Kraken]

My friend and I were playing a game in Skyloft and I killed him off the top of the stage with U-air at 14% (that's how much damage he had on him after the attack). In fairness he went pretty high up there, but it was still pretty crazy.

 

[Baskerville]

Yeah... I remember on numerous occasions where I've almost killed people around 30%.

 

[icraq]

yeah I'm just seeing this way more often now that i know about it, and im pretty sure you can combo two upairs into each other and kill with the 2nd one at low percents.

luma just has crazy base knockback on that uair and dair, too good.