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DWYP 2 Round 2 lonejedi vs. Jam Stunna: Should the US leave Iraq?

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Jam Stunna

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I will be arguing that the US should leave Iraq. Good luck lonejedi!

This war was begun under false pretenses. The oft-stated goal of the Bush administration was to disarm Iraq and neutralize its WMD program. The administration has since tried to retconn the reasons for invading Iraq in the first place, but the proof of the initial reasoning is in writing:

The basis for international action is stated in UN Security Council Resolution 1441, paragraph 2, as “bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process.”
Source: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1435, Chapter 1: Introduction

It is now clear, and has been for several years, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction when we invaded. With the main rationale for our invasion gone in the first place, what now is the reason that we should remain?
 

lonejedi

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I will be arguing that the US should leave Iraq. Good luck lonejedi!

This war was begun under false pretenses. The oft-stated goal of the Bush administration was to disarm Iraq and neutralize its WMD program. The administration has since tried to retconn the reasons for invading Iraq in the first place, but the proof of the initial reasoning is in writing:


Source: http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1435, Chapter 1: Introduction

It is now clear, and has been for several years, that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction when we invaded. With the main rationale for our invasion gone in the first place, what now is the reason that we should remain?
Doesn't everyone remember that one time in their life, when Mom (The U.N) told you to be careful when you poured the milk because she knew you might spill? Then, even though you heard what your mom told you to do, you did it anyway, and you then spilled the milk. Your mom got ticked, and then she told you to clean the mess up. And you did what she told you to do.

That's exactly how Iraq worked out. We went into Iraq on what most believe was bad intelligence, we made a mess with things such as Sunni's and the ****es. We've got to clean our mess up. If we were to leave Iraq, we'd be leaving our milk on the table.

In fact leaving right now would be one of the worst ideas. Most news agencies aren't going to be reporting this, but July was an all time low in troop deaths. ranging from 11-13 deaths,(1.) and civilian casualties dropped 75%. (2.) These are amazing stats. Clearly, things are improving in Iraq. To pull out now would be waste of the years we spent in Iraq, whether we were right to invade or not.

1. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/01/US_Iraqi_combat_deaths_at_all-time_low/UPI-57611217593544/

2. http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-usiraq015784591aug01,0,5687977.story
 

Jam Stunna

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In fact leaving right now would be one of the worst ideas. Most news agencies aren't going to be reporting this, but July was an all time low in troop deaths. ranging from 11-13 deaths,(1.) and civilian casualties dropped 75%. (2.) These are amazing stats. Clearly, things are improving in Iraq. To pull out now would be waste of the years we spent in Iraq, whether we were right to invade or not.

1. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/01/US_Iraqi_combat_deaths_at_all-time_low/UPI-57611217593544/

2. http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-usiraq015784591aug01,0,5687977.story
This is exactly why we should leave. The surge was very successful, I don't think anyone doubts that. It has led to the things you pointed out: lower American and Iraqi casualties. July was the month that the troop surge officially ended (1), and it was also the month that the least amount of American soldiers have died since the beginning of the war (2). If casualties are down across the board, then why are we staying? Iraq will never be totally free of terrorist attacks, but right now presents us with the best chance to withdraw from Iraq while still giving the Iraqis their best chance at success.

Besides, Iraqis want us out of Iraq within two years (3). Can we really keep combat troops in a sovereign nation against its government's will? Even John McCain concedes that US troops cannot stay in a country in which they are not wanted (4).

1. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1823240,00.html

2. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/373112_iraq01.html

3. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4373602.ece

4. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/09/mccain-spokesman-us-shoul_n_111691.html
 

lonejedi

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This is exactly why we should leave. The surge was very successful, I don't think anyone doubts that. It has led to the things you pointed out: lower American and Iraqi casualties. July was the month that the troop surge officially ended (1), and it was also the month that the least amount of American soldiers have died since the beginning of the war (2). If casualties are down across the board, then why are we staying? Iraq will never be totally free of terrorist attacks, but right now presents us with the best chance to withdraw from Iraq while still giving the Iraqis their best chance at success.

Besides, Iraqis want us out of Iraq within two years (3). Can we really keep combat troops in a sovereign nation against its government's will? Even John McCain concedes that US troops cannot stay in a country in which they are not wanted (4).

1. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1823240,00.html

2. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/373112_iraq01.html

3. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4373602.ece

4. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/09/mccain-spokesman-us-shoul_n_111691.html

Wait, so you're saying we should pull out because of one good month? That's one of the worst ideas ever. If I were a bad guy, and I thought America was dumb enough to pull out after one good month. I'd just order all my cronies to wait two months to make America believe that it was a good time, and then after they pull out, do what I was doing before, but this time, theres no force in my way.

Their government gave us two years, I think that's plenty of time to finish the job, but not 2months.
 

Jam Stunna

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Wait, so you're saying we should pull out because of one good month? That's one of the worst ideas ever. If I were a bad guy, and I thought America was dumb enough to pull out after one good month. I'd just order all my cronies to wait two months to make America believe that it was a good time, and then after they pull out, do what I was doing before, but this time, theres no force in my way.

Their government gave us two years, I think that's plenty of time to finish the job, but not 2months.
What's to prevent "one good month" from becoming "one good year"? And besides, it hasn't just been one good month. The decision to start drawing down the surge troops was made back in September 2007, when the first Marine brigade was sent home (1). That was almost one year ago, and steady progress has been made every month since then, until we arrive at the lowest troop death total of the entire war in July 2008. What else is there that is left to be done? Let's let General Petraeus' 45-day assessment period pass, and then resume bringing troops home at the same pace as the surge troops.

1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20689394/
 

lonejedi

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What's to prevent "one good month" from becoming "one good year"? And besides, it hasn't just been one good month. The decision to start drawing down the surge troops was made back in September 2007, when the first Marine brigade was sent home (1). That was almost one year ago, and steady progress has been made every month since then, until we arrive at the lowest troop death total of the entire war in July 2008. What else is there that is left to be done? Let's let General Petraeus' 45-day assessment period pass, and then resume bringing troops home at the same pace as the surge troops.

1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20689394/

If something is working so well, why not keep going longer? I realize we cannot be there forever, and just like everyone else, I think we should be gone in the two year period that was given to us by the Iraqi government. But why leave when things are working. I want to leave Iraq when it's 100% done. We're getting closer to that. But it's still too much of a risk to leave Iraq when there is still turmoil between Sunni's and Shiites. Sure we can start sending some troops home, but a full withdrawal now would take out any momentum we had from the surge.
 

Jam Stunna

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lonejedi said:
I want to leave Iraq when it's 100% done.
What does "100% done" mean? What condition would Iraq have to be in for you to consider it 100% done?
 

lonejedi

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100% is when we have more than one solid month. It's been a steady, and like you said, we had one good month. But 100% means we have that month every month. July was great, but what if August is horrible? 100% is when the Generals know that Iraq is safe, and there is little to no chance of a civil war. We're getting much closer to that, but again, basing this on one good month is a bad idea.

What if everything we did was based on one month? We had some really bad months in Iraq, months where hundreds of soldiers were dying. But we didn't pull out. And look how it worked out, Iraq is improving, but for us to leave now when things are actually working, just seems foolish.
 

Jam Stunna

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100% is when we have more than one solid month. It's been a steady, and like you said, we had one good month. But 100% means we have that month every month. July was great, but what if August is horrible? 100% is when the Generals know that Iraq is safe, and there is little to no chance of a civil war. We're getting much closer to that, but again, basing this on one good month is a bad idea.

What if everything we did was based on one month? We had some really bad months in Iraq, months where hundreds of soldiers were dying. But we didn't pull out. And look how it worked out, Iraq is improving, but for us to leave now when things are actually working, just seems foolish.
Hoping for an Iraq that is free of the threat of civil war is exactly that: hoping. Social, cultural and historical factors almost guarantee that unless there is some form of strong, authoritarian government in place in Iraq to keep the various factions at peace with each other, then some kind of ethnic/sectarian conflict is inevitable. We removed the only type of government structure that can keep Iraq relatively peaceful (Saddam Hussein), which is why the country went to hell so fast.

What I'm trying to get at is that any definition of success is either impossible to achieve, or has already been achieved as best as it can. If success is impossible, then why are we staying? And if we've already gotten the best we can out of Iraq, why are we staying?
 

lonejedi

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Hoping for an Iraq that is free of the threat of civil war is exactly that: hoping. Social, cultural and historical factors almost guarantee that unless there is some form of strong, authoritarian government in place in Iraq to keep the various factions at peace with each other, then some kind of ethnic/sectarian conflict is inevitable. We removed the only type of government structure that can keep Iraq relatively peaceful (Saddam Hussein), which is why the country went to hell so fast.

What I'm trying to get at is that any definition of success is either impossible to achieve, or has already been achieved as best as it can. If success is impossible, then why are we staying? And if we've already gotten the best we can out of Iraq, why are we staying?
Your reasoning for leaving Iraq is what bothers me. There is absolutely no reason to leave. The biggest reason people wanted to pull out was the loss of lives, and we're losing very few.

Another reason people wanted us to leave, was because the Iraq government wanted us to get out, while that is somewhat stilll true, as you have said before they have given us a two year period, why not comply with them and stay two more years.

Sure pulling out would have some advantages. We would be free of Iraq at last, but what would be the legacy? Do we really want another Vietnam where we left due to Media pressure? A war where we let congress decide the strategy instead of the generals?

This is where we are getting at when we leave.
 

Jam Stunna

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The problem with Iraq (and actually every US war since World War II), is that we continue to define it in Western terms. We aren't fighting a European-style war where once you capture the flag, the war is over. This is a different type of enemy with different tactics and strategies.

Did you know that we never lost a battle in Vietnam? That we dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than we dropped on Europe during World War II? (1) People keep saying that the will to fight gave out back home, but why should the American public be expected to continue supporting a war for eight years (2), much less one where no matter how many times the VC and North Vietnamese were beaten they kept coming back?

American politicians and generals kept framing it in terms of "victory" and "defeat", which is what ultimately led to the fall of Saigon. When your terms of victory are the complete destruction of your enemy, then all the enemy has to do is survive, and they've won. That's why North Vietnam triumphed in the end.

And we still haven't learned the lessons of asymmetric, guerilla warfare, or the proper way to even define the conflict. Look at Israel: despite the fact the Hezbollah is no match for the Israeli army, the general consensus after the fact was that the invasion of Lebanon was a disaster. Why? Israel framed the conflict wrong, achieved none of its goals (end of the rocket attacks and the return of the captured soldiers), and all Hezbollah had to do was survive to look like the heroes of the Middle East.

This is the situation that the US finds itself in today, a mis-framed, asymmetrical guerilla war. The surge has improved security, but as much of that improvement has come from Muqtada al-Sadr's voluntary decision to observe a cease-fire. He's biding his time, just like the North Vietnamese did. And Al-Qaeda has been hurt badly in Iraq, so they've turned their attention to Afghanistan.

There is no "victory" in this situation. How can there be? I'm not defeatist, and I don't take pleasure in the deaths of Iraqis or Americans. But this is just a plain bad situation that does not have a neat conclusion anywhere in sight. In light of all of that, are we to ask the American public, and the armed forces, to continue fighting indefinitely, hoping for what amounts to a miracle? Saigon eventually fell, and that was probably the best possible outcome. As I stated before, Iraq's civil war is inevitable, and we're just baby-sitting until then.

1. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0107_040107_tvbombdigger.html
2. http://www.vietnamwar.com/
 

lonejedi

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The problem with Iraq (and actually every US war since World War II), is that we continue to define it in Western terms. We aren't fighting a European-style war where once you capture the flag, the war is over. This is a different type of enemy with different tactics and strategies.

Did you know that we never lost a battle in Vietnam? That we dropped more bombs on North Vietnam than we dropped on Europe during World War II? (1) People keep saying that the will to fight gave out back home, but why should the American public be expected to continue supporting a war for eight years (2), much less one where no matter how many times the VC and North Vietnamese were beaten they kept coming back?

American politicians and generals kept framing it in terms of "victory" and "defeat", which is what ultimately led to the fall of Saigon. When your terms of victory are the complete destruction of your enemy, then all the enemy has to do is survive, and they've won. That's why North Vietnam triumphed in the end.

And we still haven't learned the lessons of asymmetric, guerilla warfare, or the proper way to even define the conflict. Look at Israel: despite the fact the Hezbollah is no match for the Israeli army, the general consensus after the fact was that the invasion of Lebanon was a disaster. Why? Israel framed the conflict wrong, achieved none of its goals (end of the rocket attacks and the return of the captured soldiers), and all Hezbollah had to do was survive to look like the heroes of the Middle East.

This is the situation that the US finds itself in today, a mis-framed, asymmetrical guerilla war. The surge has improved security, but as much of that improvement has come from Muqtada al-Sadr's voluntary decision to observe a cease-fire. He's biding his time, just like the North Vietnamese did. And Al-Qaeda has been hurt badly in Iraq, so they've turned their attention to Afghanistan.

There is no "victory" in this situation. How can there be? I'm not defeatist, and I don't take pleasure in the deaths of Iraqis or Americans. But this is just a plain bad situation that does not have a neat conclusion anywhere in sight. In light of all of that, are we to ask the American public, and the armed forces, to continue fighting indefinitely, hoping for what amounts to a miracle? Saigon eventually fell, and that was probably the best possible outcome. As I stated before, Iraq's civil war is inevitable, and we're just baby-sitting until then.

1. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0107_040107_tvbombdigger.html
2. http://www.vietnamwar.com/

It's funny how you bring up Vietnam when comparing Iraq. They are both very similar wars. Both wars went on longer than they should. Both were very unpopular. Both seemed to face an invisible enemy. One of the wars is done, one of the wars is still going on. You would think that in such a case, we would try to learn from the first war?

We're at the same place right now in Iraq, that we were in Vietnam. We're making progress, but back home, we have little support. It's a common fact that the Tet Offensive, one of the main reasons we pulled out of the war, was a military success. But because of the media, it was portrayed as a loss, and the public approval dropped even more. (1) We were wearing out the enemy, but we let the people back home dictate what we did, instead of the generals on the war zone.

We're in the same situation now. We're having success in Iraq. But the media still doesn't approve, you won't hear too much about how low the troops are. But if something bad happens, you will. We put the hands of the country of Iraq into broadcasters who are making news as a business, trying to make money.

If we leave now, any success that we had will be gone. You can say it's not worth fighting there since whenever we leave there will be a civil war. But tensions have been low, and they c ould get even lower if we stay longer.


1- http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1862.html

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This is my last post in this thread. I'll be gone for the next week, Feel free to make a last post as well Jam, and after that the judges can judge this one. It was fun debating you. Good Luck in the grading, and if you win, GL in the next round.
 

Jam Stunna

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Well, I got the first post, so I think it's fair that you get the last one. Good luck, and I really enjoyed this debate.
 
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