Duck hunt duo: quirk moves, KO upthrow percents and more!

[Joshua Flynn]

Note: title has been changed as this should be a thread for every to collate quirk moves and meta KO information to aid DHD players. Apologies for any confusion.

As a duck hunt duo player, your biggest irritation is likely actually getting the player to KO. Well, fret not, two things to help you:

1) A list of percentages for each character (except DLC, I don't have that) where upthrow will KO on an omega stage (note, stage heights slightly vary so it might be out by 1 or 2 percent depending) - this list is intended to be inclusive (so characters on that percent or higher should KO) however it's not tested against DI resisting (I am but one person).

2) A unique KO move for low percents on angled stages - that can still KO even if your recovery chances are blown.

The list of characters upthrow to KO percents (1.1.0 valid), in order of highest to lowest:

Spoiler

Dedede 252%
Donkey Kong 239%
Bowser 228%
Captain Falcon, Ike 226%
Ganondorf 225%
Bowser Jr 224%
Megaman 222%
Link 217%
Shulk, Wario 215%
Charizard 214%
Samus, ROB 213%
Duck hunt duo 210%
Diddy Kong 209%
Pit, Dark Pit, Yoshi, Marth, Robin 207%
Mario, Dr Mario 206%
Little Mac 205%
Sonic, Fox 202%
Villager 201%
Luigi 199%
Wii Fit Trainer, Ness 198%
Zero suit samus, Greninja 196%
Falco, Toon Link 195%
Zelda 193%
Palutena 192%
Shiek, Peach 191%
Metaknight 188%
Olimar 185%
Pikachu 184%
Rosalina and Luma 183%
Game and Watch 174%
Jigglypuff 166%

I must admit the percentages are counter-intuitive: for example, Ness is harder to launch than Toon Link. The list is handy because in most DHD matches characters reach 180-190%. Remember, if they're slightly below the percentage, you can always grab and tap (used to be 3% per hit prior to 1.1.0, but it seems to be 1-2% randomised). I think it's most useful against Jigglypuff who is pretty difficult to dispose of conventionally.

The low percent KO move:

Demo video:

It's requirements are:
1) It must be an angled stage (duh!)
2) The can must be from DHD towards the stage as seen in the video. If done from the stage outwards, it won't work. However, those of you devious enough might be able to couple this with a back-air trick shot for a fatal ledge KO...

(It might even work for zig-zag can customs giving you a pretty dangerous edge guarding tool in custom tournaments!)

There's a few exceptions to the angled stage can KO move:

1) It doesn't work on Jigglypuff period. That's okay though, you can always upthrow him instead.
2) Sonic requires 71% damage minimum. Don't ask me why.
3) Only works on Metaknight between 20-53% inclusive. Once he's above that 53% he turns Jigglypuff style immune.
4) Kirby requires 60% or above

It's not been fully tested, but on conventional characters like Robin, Shulk, Little Mac etc it works as low as 20% (Shulk in the video is 30% but he has a high recovery... against Ganon or Mac... fatal). Be wary as there seems to be a sweet/sour spot involved (if the can nudges instead of explodes, it will classically fail). It can be done at near point blank, however the closer you are, the more likely you'll get angled downwards as well. Done right, at close range, it will propel them downwards and you upwards.

Hope this helps!

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Turns out back air and neutral air on the can both can do the low percent KO can move for angled ledges:

 

[WispBae]

For the DLC characters:
Mewtwo: 182%
Lucas: 196%
Roy: 214%
Ryu: 214%

Something to keep in mind is I used training mode to test these percents, which does not account for Rage. Once you hit 100% in your own damage, all the percents will begin to scale down. It's too hard to account for rage in normal testing, so use these numbers as a gauge before rage, and lower them as you take damage.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Does anyone know how proper DI affects these numbers?

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Does anyone know how proper DI affects these numbers?

Without someone assisting, it'll be hard to say. I know it will usually add anywhere between a few percentage to 10-20% (some players have really effective DI, not sure what tricks they're using) - gravity and weight might apply, but the percentages are from training mode which doesn't factor rage mode.

I'll try to get some informal 'tests' from for glory if I get the chance and append them to the OP if people survive higher percentages, although it'll be faster if two people arrange a match and test it out. I'll also try to find out which omega stages are lower/higher. If people want me to test some other, non-omega stage (I don't have DLC though) just shout and I'll add it in.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I've done some, but not all stages due to time constraints, I'll expand the list as time goes on. This list uses Dark Pit as the base target with upthrow, assumes omega and is done in training mode:

Spoiler

Halberd, Great Cave Offensive, Norfair, Wrecking Crew - 208%
Skyloft, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Luigi's mansion - 207%

It appears levels which are intrinsically large (in terms of open space) non-omega are the ones most likely to require the extra percent, most likely due to higher ceiling.

I'll be also working on a rough guide on 'power' moves that can KO duck hunt and what percent. Only had enough time to test two of Ganon's moves (I will expand and update as appropriate). These percentages are rough guidelines, although I will try to give the lowest percentage required to be KO'd. DI is approximate and not perfect:

Spoiler

Ganondorf:

Ganon's punch:
52% - Fatal no DI.
68% - Fatal with DI.

Ganon's up-A:
92% - Fatal no DI.
122% - Fatal with DI.

List last updated: 21/08/15 (08:59 BST)

 

[Rebel13]

Random note: All omega stages have the same blastzones. Any difference in kill percent is probably because you got decimal percent or just random luck.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Random note: All omega stages have the same blastzones. Any difference in kill percent is probably because you got decimal percent or just random luck.

I kid you not. I always round down - at 207% dark pit survives on Halberd in training with duck hunt duo upthrow, KOs on 208%. Try it if you doubt me. Definitely not the same.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Visual evidence:

207% doesn't KO dark pit on Halberd:

208% KO's dark pit:

Lylat cruise 207% KOs:

Norfair 207% doesn't KO:

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Halberd omega, along with a few other Omegas, DO have smaller ceilings than other Omegas. It's a pretty small difference, and not something that would really make a difference in the majority of matches, but certain kill moves that require high percents (like Mario's upTilt) show these differences.

As far as "proper DI" Goes, it's simply just holding Left/Right away from your opponent before getting thrown upwards. No real tricks involved.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

As a note, I've changed the title as I'm discovering other gameplay quirks.

Halberd omega, along with a few other Omegas, DO have smaller ceilings than other Omegas. It's a pretty small difference, and not something that would really make a difference in the majority of matches, but certain kill moves that require high percents (like Mario's upTilt) show these differences.

As far as "proper DI" Goes, it's simply just holding Left/Right away from your opponent before getting thrown upwards. No real tricks involved.

Thanks for the heads up. In that case, it's proper DI. I've just seen players who seem to pull off some really good resists on what would normally be fatal moves, so I wondered if there was a 'DI at point of hit' type thing occurring.

When dealing with ROB

Duck hunt duo has a very unique talent in that he picks up items rather well. This includes ROB's spinning top, and it can be grabbed when it's first thrown (you need to start the grab roughly just before the top hits). If ROB has dropped it on the floor, a dash item grab will pick it up quite well (I suppose it makes sense: DHD's skill is to fetch things). What you'll find is, with the spinning top in mouth, ROB finds himself extremely disadvantaged for two reasons:

You can either:

1) Use the spinning top like a fast-reset frisbee to combo (top->dash attack->grab item->top->dash attack etc), which will disappear in short order, or, more sinisterly...

2) You can hold onto the spinning top and rely exclusively on B moves. For ROB players who have mastered fighting with a spinning top, this completely throws their game, again for two reasons:
2.1) They don't know how to combo without the spinning top (whoops!)
2.2) They become afraid of throwing you the spinning top lest you grab it again (which causes 2.1).

With it in mouth, you gain the advantage of being able to completely overwhelm them at distance with gunman/frisbee/can combos, which forces them to get close (their laser takes time to recharge and doesn't block most projectiles nor kill the gunman, especially at mid-charge). If you can couple it with roll dodging and air jumps/dodges, you'll be chased by a ROB who has no idea how to fight. And even better, when he does finally corner you... you can, err... 'give' it back to him.

Mastering grab reactions of a spinning top is a game changer when it comes to ROB, completely cripples the spinspamming tincan.

(This doesn't work with other characters who use slow and close B moves that can be easily shielded, and normally it would disadvantage a player. But because DHD is all about the B moves, this plays to your advantage.)

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to revise Ganon's KO move percentages. I wasn't doing DI optimally.

I've done a basic image of duck hunt's spike positions to show it's possible to get full stage coverage from a limited set of positions (it doesn't contain all possible moves, limits of image editing abilities):

From left to right, bottom to top:

Left side:
Smash forward A
Roll dodge to light rapid jab (the last hit usually KOs) - the light jab can be either direction. It can also be smash moves.
Roll dodge to up air

Right side:
Smash forward A (behind duck hunt)
Smash down A (hard to show)
Smash up A (hard to show)
Back air ledge jab (good when they're sitting on the edge)
Back air intercept
Neutral air intercept
Up air intercept
Down air ledge guard
Mid-air forward air (better if it's a mid-air back air)

It's worth noting from the roll dodge position, a smash forward A would hit captain falcon, which basically means you've got half of the entire stage covered by basic close range moves.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I've got an example of another quirk KO move for duck hunt - in this video it doesn't depict an actual KO though (percentages were too low for it, but the technique is the same). Note it can work with back air, up air or down air:

As you can see, it requires you both have roughly the same percentage. Canikaze at close range, then either back air, up air or down air (it's recommended to use back or up air as down air is often too slow). Most opponents won't see this coming, however, be warned, it's a double edged sword - they can KO you with the same movesets as well!

Works best against character with poor air moves, if you're in a high percent with good odds of being KO'd anyway, players with poor reactions, and players with aerial attacks that are too short or too slow to effectively counter your move. Done right, you'll go from an explosion straight into a b-air or up air without them knowing what just happened.

It's KO range is about 110-120%, lower if it's an up-air move, and more so if it's closer to the blast zone. Standard weights apply (heavier characters = harder to KO).

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Got additional observations on can physics and how the can's trajectory as well as shot direction is calculated (note, this also applies to your opponent when they hit the can). Excuse the poor drawing.

The can has two sides, the side that faces you (which is the side marked red here), which is what Nintendo expect you to hit, and the opposite side (marked yellow) which is a side you can hit, both on purpose and accidentally. Now, due to what appears to be a programming oversight, rather than synchronising it so the can direction dictates the shot direction, it's actually the direction the character faces when hitting the can that dictates which way it will get shot.

So in the below image, if you hit the near side of the can (red), it will go forwards based on the impact, and shoot forwards based on DHD's direction. However, if you hit the far side of the can (yellow), it goes backwards - as if hit from the other side - but because it polls which way DHD is facing (which is forwards), the shot moves forwards instead of backwards, as shown below:

As you can see, if P1 hits the far side (yellow), the can goes backwards but the shot forwards (white), where-as if our 'ghost' DHD on the other side hits the far side (yellow), the can goes back [P1's back, his forward] (yellow) and the shot goes back too (black) because he's facing the same direction as the side he's attacking.

A prime example is the back air on a can:

Despite hitting it with all due force on the near side (red), the can moves away but the shot towards DHD - that's because he's facing the opposite direction (and it appears to be facing direction - not simply movement - that dictates which way the shot fires).

This might offer a possibility that (I'll have to investigate), if a DHD drops a can, an opponent hits the can with a projectile - but faces the other way when it does - the can shot will move differently. This isn't a bad thing if true: DHD can hit the can both with frisbee and gunman whilst facing the other way.

So, what essentially is a bad programming choice (using two different mechanisms to determine can direction and shot behaviour) becomes quite possibly an exploitable tool for us to use.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

After investigating projectiles, it doesn't appear to be the case - it seems projectiles are their own independent class, so when they hit the can, the can polls both their movement direction and facing direction (rather than polling the character that fired the projectile for facing direction).

The only exception is Ness' lightning, which if it hits it from above at a slight angle, can launch it one way but the shot fires the other. Not really practical.

It's worth noting a can can be used to help a Ness teammate regen health, as the explosion appears to be neutral and thus can be absorbed.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Said technique to heal Ness (& Lucas too!) can also work in FG Teams as well, where Friendly Fire is OFF, making the Mother Boys good allies to have in teams, who we can be the Team Medic for, provided we can clear out the space around them necessary for them to heal off of our exploding Cans. That the Can works this way in FG Teams also makes G&W a good ally to have, provided you can setup the Can explosion 3 times during the 2 minutes, which can be surprisingly difficult to do.

I would like to believe that this is a quirky, yet potentially powerful way to use our crawl, due to the A+B method of inputting Smashes having been around since the Mewtwo patch. You see, we actually maintain our low profile that our crouch & crawl provide us with when we're charging Down Smash without having any in-between animations taking that away from us, provided we're holding either A or B while we're crawling, so that we're 1 button away from activating DSmash. Thankfully, if we forget to hold either A or B before we start crawling, DTilt, Down B, and especially Jab if held have low cooldown, and if the Can's already out, then simply B-holding the Can is the absolute fastest way to have a button held down without putting us in the middle of an attack or shielding (just make sure you're not right next to your Can on the ground, otherwise you're freezing up for a brief moment, open to virtually any attack). 'Course, the risk in trying to lower our profile with charging DSmash is that we receive increased knockback if we get hit during the charging of any Smash Attack. At least if we get caught while crawling, we don't get knocked back AS far, which I WISH was the case in Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike, where getting hit while crouching increases the amount of damage the opponent deals to you.

However, we can lower our profile further with DTilt, once the duck's parallel to the ground with the dog. The most obvious use I've found for this is reliably going under Ryu's Hadoukens when our Gunmen's KO'd, our Can is already out (and NOT blocking off ANY Hadoukens if it's simply lying on the ground), and it's close enough for our Clay to be too slow for us to confidently throw out. We don't need DTilt's lower profile to go under Thoron at all, and I have been able to go under Pikachu's Side 1 with this, once the duck's already parallel to the ground with the dog (His Side 3's low enough to the ground that it can still tag us, I think, but that could use further testing to confirm). DTilt's recovery (7 frames, I think) is quicker than UTilt's and especially FTilt's, but slower than Jab 1's. In terms of execution, so long as you start DTilt early enough, I do believe DTilt-ing under certain attacks to be easier to do than Just Defending (powershielding), due to how long you remain in your lowered profile, making the timing for it more lax than Just Defending.

Being able to DTilt under Hadoukens is REALLY reminding me of 2I/3S/USF4 Yang's QCF+K rolling attack being used to fight fireball spam, and I love it, since I actually mained Yang in all those mentioned fighters. XD We get to keep advancing towards Ryu without risking getting pushed back for blocking Hadoukens too early when our Gunman is KO'd or potentially getting anti-air'd for having our airdodges or stuck-out limbs (NAir, really) baited, and it can work online when there's significant amounts of lag, even on the 3DS. Since our DTilt and Gunmen (especially Down 2) have relatively low cooldown, we COULD make it a possible frame trap by mashing out DSmash afterwards by holding A after DTilt's out or B after Gunman's out and then mashing/holding B/A while holding A/B...

I DO wonder if the DTilt profile lowering tech would be useful in MUs other than Ryu....

 

[Joshua Flynn]

The low profile in forward smash attacks is what actually prevents replies from large characters like Ganondorf with certain movesets (the duck moves to the side of DHD so he 'hides' and lowers the hitbox... I think). I think if it's possible to compile whose moves we dodge under when forward smashing, it'd give us a huge advantage (so if a player favours a particular move, we'll be able to know if we can beat it out). As ever, it's vulnerable to grabs, though.

The down tilt might allow us to deal with characters who have particular fast forward moves (I'm thinking Captain Falcon and Luigi).

Said technique to heal Ness (& Lucas too!) can also work in FG Teams as well, where Friendly Fire is OFF, making the Mother Boys good allies to have in teams, who we can be the Team Medic for, provided we can clear out the space around them necessary for them to heal off of our exploding Cans. That the Can works this way in FG Teams also makes G&W a good ally to have, provided you can setup the Can explosion 3 times during the 2 minutes, which can be surprisingly difficult to do.

It's worth noting that if FF is off, the shot from frisbee should work (in-fact, if you shoot it before it hits them, they'll absorb the shots, even if they can't absorb the frisbee itself).

With FF off, I think Ness can also use PK fire on the can (it doesn't nudge the can and damages it), which should shorten it's lifespan greatly.

The can takes 9 hits, or runs out after about 10 seconds (whichever is soonest: it's health will deplete over time, and seems to be 'one hit per second' roughly). Without someone to help test FF off scenarios I can't comment if PK fire is effective.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Splooshi Splashy, it turns out down-tilt works for Falcon punch, which I discovered by accident when my smash moves kept failing to become smash moves and instead tilt moves. It appears if you time it at the point the punch executes, some bizarro Nintendo physics kicks in - you're under the punch so it doesn't hit, but because the punch is more powerful than the down tilt, down-tilt doesn't appear to override the attack, and instead Falcon continues to move forward, which he then gets pushed out - so Falcon is then placed behind you.

Possibly a good 'surprise' move where you d-tilt dodge a Falcon punch into a down-smash A finisher, but hardcore Falcons rarely use this so I doubt what use it might have...

 

[Joshua Flynn]

New KO technique: Double-can KO.

Discovered this in a match against a Luigi who hopped out of range of a back-air, and might be useful for players who find their opponent is too far away for a can-to-backair attack.

Simply canikaze your target (like a can to backair setup) at roughly similar percents, but when they go further away, instead of going out of your way to do a backair or upair, deploy a second can whilst airborne and use it to intercept them before their hitstun runs out. Because they're already so close to the blast zone it will be fatal.

Works best if they're above you diagonally, and also prevents them from intercepting you without it becoming suicidal.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Made a major discovery and a minor discovery.

Major discovery: you can tech on ceilings! Normally players can tech on landing to instantly recover, but after fighting a hardcore Sheik who tried to do an underneath stage rebound, I found my instinctive shielding reactions caused me to tech on the 'ceiling' (underneath) of the stage - which completely denied the downward force.

Ceiling tech evidence:

I believe this might be possible for angled and walled ledges too, but I'd need a volunteer to beat the crud out of me by kicking me into the angled ledge...

Minor discovery: you can use the can whilst taunting. Not sure it's practical applications, but it could be used as a feint - place the can in front or behind, taunt spam, and when they rush (thinking the can cannot be used)... use can. Would only work once though...

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Hmm, no volunteers. K.

I've watched numerous duck hunt duo matches and replays, and I've not yet seen a single one use this down and dirty technique that I call the shield gambit (I had presumed DHDs would have figured it by themselves but turns out no-one knows it). I originally developed the 'shield gambit' in response to face hugging characters during my early 'had no idea what I was doing' days, but it works pretty well on Sonic. Actually, it works pretty well on anyone (of a close range/facehug variety).

What is the 'shield gambit'? Well, it has two forms: 'shield gambit' and the recently discovered 'rolling shield gambit', and if you've ever fought Sonic or some annoyingly fast character, you'll probably wonder how you survived without it.

It's pretty simple, but it's a powerful setup: deploy a can, and then sit on it, either with your shield already up, or ready to deploy.

Now, you're probably thinking 'who the heck would fall for this?' (hence 'gambit'), but it turns out speedy characters often don't have enough time to stop, and absolutely no character that lacks projectiles has any decent approach options in this state:

1) If they grab the shield, the can will blow both of you up, resetting to neutral. If they toss you before it explodes, only they get hit.
2) If they somehow 'bypass' the shield (or the shield 'spontaneously fails'), both of you blow up.
3) If they attack you or rush you, the shield protects the can. If they hit the can, and here's the nasty part...
4) ...It's hit detection becomes live against you... but you've got your shield up. Which means that:
4a) The can instantly explodes the next frame (which means no-one can protect themselves), and
4b) You're already shielded against it's effects.

And even if they don't hit the can? You can just shoot it at them. It'll explode, and with your shield up, you'll remain unscathed. A winner is you!

Now, the shield gambit has three problems: one, your shield will deplete over time (you can drop it as bait, or wait until they rush), two, your can will detonate after roughly 9 seconds, and three, the opponent has no obligation to rush you. Which is why it only really works against face huggers and speed characters (the former don't want to give you space, the latter move so fast they often can't stop). However, that said, you can always just roll back from the exploding can, deploy another and reset.

That's the shield gambit. The rolling shield gambit is pretty self explanatory: you deploy can and sit on it, but if your opponent is feeling lazy, you can move up a few spaces (either roll dodge or a quick walk then shield), then have the can follow you - or vice versa, have the can go first, then you follow up. This presents a camping player with a problem - they have to move over you (becoming air vulnerable), they have to engage you (but risk the can), or engage the can (and risk you attacking).


And it really does work. I've caught out so many players with the shield gambit (mostly due to ignorance of can physics and how they interact) - you can usually pull it off once or twice a match (it's best to only do it once or twice and try to make it seem 'accidental'). Pure melee characters (Falcon, Ganon, etc) have no approach options for it... and yes, it works on Falcon Kick, too (assuming your shield holds) - because the can detonates on the shield.


It's an excellent defensive/counter move, and it's very good for buying time or space to weigh up options. Word of warning though: it does not work against projectile characters solely for the fact their shots can deplete your shield or 'accidentally' set off the can. You might find it useful against Wario's bike, however...


Further edit:

If you want a way to bait them into attacking, sit on the can, then immediately start using gunmen and frisbee. Be careful of the end lag on both as you won't be able to shield during either, but usually the first two will be sufficient to prompt an aerial or dash response.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Here's the example video on how to 0% KO Little Mac from a charge punch. Note, this is a bit tricky to pull off, and after the first one (which demonstrates Little Mac can't recover from it), I show the failure case scenarios:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpxg5eB74NM

In order:
1) Successful execution with Little Mac demonstrating inability to recover (even if he was able to recover: more effective at higher percents).
2) Perfect shield (failure state example: prevents movement).
3) Demonstration of non-perfect shielding.
4) Too far from the edge (failure state example: Little Mac goes past).
5) Demonstration of correct distancing (about 1 and a half dogs to 2 dogs from edge).

Another failure state I discovered is being too slow with the down smash A execution: because Little Mac intersects DHD (which is necessary for the down smash A to do the diagonal drop), if the player does not immediately execute DSA as soon as Mac finishes the punch, Mac will slide behind DHD as the game's 'physics' engine tries to correct the intersect.

Note, the diagonal drop of down smash A by itself will work with any other character (not the above KO move but the DSA sending them diagonally down), with it most effective against mid-size characters and less effective versus small (no hit) and large (caught by the second shot and thus not dropped), however it requires the opponent be intersecting duck hunt duo, and getting this during normal fight scenes or even having the reaction times for it is unlikely. Little Mac's charge punch nicely sets up for this, however.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

'A hardcore Little Mac never uses a charge punch!' I hear you complain!

Which is why at Flynn laboratories we have invented a new 0% KO move for Little Mac. It's based on the same principle, but it uses a move you WILL see in a match. The only catch? It's a lot, lot harder to pull off. Involves milli-second timings that I haven't quite figured out.

In attempting it, you will get something like a 1 out of 10 chance at succeeding. Bear in mind this will KO Mac even at 0%, so it's a reasonable trade-off: G&W gets the same on judge, so you work it out.

Here's a short demo video:

As you can see, it uses the same technique as the charge punch KO, but Mac is instead doing his side-B punch.

It requires the same setup:
1) 1 and a half to 2 dogs away from edge (roughly).
2) A non-perfect shield
3) A down smash A performed immediately after connect

Now the catch is the timing: somehow, between being hit at the shield, and prior to DHD sliding to the edge, you have to execute the down smash A. So you literally have to drop the shield at shield impact and immediately do a down smash A within the few frames allotted before DHD stops sliding. Why?

From what I can tell, if you reach the edge, in-game physics re-exert themselves on Mac and push him forwards, which means he won't be intersecting DHD for our down smash A to miss the second shot. If however you DSA prior to reaching the edge - you stop, but Mac keeps moving, so he then starts to intersect.

(I'm not sure of the specifics, that's my guess at the moment. It's still tricky to pull off.)

Don't think it's practical?

Here's a video of it being utilised in the now mostly deserted For Glory (it's the last life, at 1:48):

It was discovered in the above match by accident when I tried out the charge punch KO move on the side-B punch instead. What resulted was the same outcome as seen in the original 0% charge punch KO move - Mac jumps, side-Bs but can't recover.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Good news and bad news!

Good news:
The 0% KO moves still work! And the side-B KO move is even easier to pull off (you can do it reliably)!

Bad news:
You no longer have as much breathing room: you MUST be 1 dog or less from the edge to pull it off successfully. But get this: the patch means the attacks won't force you off the edge!

Moving closer is necessary because Nintendo have changed something about the shield dynamics: rather than Little Mac pushing you in-front for the duration of the attack, he actually goes past you. This is before you can drop the shield and therefore get the proper down smash A position.

However, if you are 1 dog or less away from the edge, you will instead move and stop at the edge - blocking Little Mac from going behind you. This means he HAS to move to your front. As it turns out, this makes KO'ing his side-B much easier.

I'll upload a demo video for the new patch later on, but here's an image showing proper spacing:

Given you no longer slide off the edge, this will likely mean that it will work for other moves that are non-perfectly shielded. I think it will likely mean that doing it to Falcon and Ganon's kick are viable options.

This will change DHD's gameplay because it means 5 of the main tournament character sets are now vulnerable. I suggest players don't get used to it though, in-case Nintendo decide they want their dog to stay nerfed >: | - but for now, enjoy it as a free prize for sticking with an underpowered character. I'll research the others and report back.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I pushed this video out as soon as possible. Consequently, the move does now work on Falcon and Ganondorf (however due to Ganondorf's size, it's very tricky to pull off, and Falcon is sporadic also). It might not necessarily KO Falcon or Ganon as their air is better, but assuming hitstun holds, they will be forced into a bad situation very early and I assume they get flung further at a higher percent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbwWQD9EwdU

Note the first punch attempt by Mac is the 'old style' for 1.1.0 to show why it doesn't work and why the position change.

Falcon requires that DHD be only a tail's length from the edge (as opposed to one dog's length for Mac). It's a bit flinkly but I'm sure seasoned players will pick up the sensitive spots.

If this stuff helps you, please be sure to like the posts so I know the effort is appreciated.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I'm quite shocked and seemed to have caused a bit of a stir because overnight the video got 192 views (!!!), with people (who hadn't read the video description) complaining it doesn't 0% KO Falcon, so I'll clarify here:

It doesn't 0% KO Falcon because Falcon has better air than Little Mac (same deal with Ganondorf), however that said, it will send Falcon further at higher percents and put him in a bad place (it's a nice setup into a down air, I might add). It's in the same video because it's basically the same technique.

Most of DHD's moves send his opponents upwards or sharp up horizontally, which is a nuisance when trying to KO Little Mac, Falcon etc. At 80% this move is an assured kill for Falcon: I repeat, at 80% it will definitely kill Falcon. And if you can pull it off on any other character at this percent, (unrealistic however as they have to be intersecting DHD) it would kill them too. Mac and Falcon are the easiest to do it against.

That said, I will work to find out at what percentage minimum would kill a Falcon trying to recover. But people have to remember I only tested for about 30 minutes and I don't have a comrade to control the second character with...

 

[Joshua Flynn]

You thought being able to KO Little Mac 0% with nothing more than shield and down smash in the right place, well, there's more (sorry, no 0% KO move this time). This time, canikaze where you take no damage, players who are denied ALL approach options, and an inescapable upthrow combo that has a chance of doing KO. You read that right.

Demo video (CPUs this time):

Link for detailed descriptor etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frrpx7WjXqs

The gain all of these, you need to use a technique I call 'can coverage', where, instead of using the can to attack opponents, you use it to cover yourself. It's basically like the shield gambit and rolling shield gambit, except you don't bother to shield and try to bait the opponent.

You deploy can (a good distance from opponent to aid setup), then sit roughly 2 dogs in-front of it (such if an opponent roll dodged you, they would find the can behind them on exit). This allows you to deny ALL of the opponent's approach options, sorta like chess where a pawn covers a knight.

If the opponent grabs you, you can them. If they try to jump over you, you shoot the can upwards so it air intercepts them. If they attack you and you're shielding, you just shoot the can at them (they'll hit the can which will go live, explode on your shield and hit them). Even if they hit you, because you move backwards towards the can, you can shoot it forwards to stop them getting in a combo without risking being hit. And if you attack them, you get a free pass. And if you grab them, well...

Grabbing the opponent with the can deployed in the coverage position gives you several options. Classically most DHDs will canikaze to their own harm, but this is a daft approach because it's possible to canikaze without taking damage when using a grab. How?

The canikaze with no damage exploits a subtle but annoying 'feature' that Nintendo added, namely, throws have temporary invincibility during the execution of the actual throw. As a DHD you most likely experienced this when trying to use a can to blow up an attacker who had you held, only to discover they didn't budge. Well, now we get the advantage.

You time the can to impact you just as you execute the throw (and because you have discretion of timing, this is a lot easier, although the time window is narrow), which means your opponent will take all the damage, but you will come out unscathed. In the video, this occurs at 0:16.

However, if you want to increase your odds of KOing them, you can use the upthrow to can combo. To get this to work (the video example is at 1:00), the can must be some distance away from you (otherwise if it's very close, just use the invincibility technique above). Shoot it so it's directly above you as high as possible. Toss the opponent straight into the can.

Because the can is already in place, hitstun on throw stops any dodging and DI won't get much effect in. Because the opponent is airborne, they are closer to the blast zone de facto, the can which is almost assured to hit, will very likely KO them (more likely, than say, trying to can them whilst they are on the stage).

Now for those of you with issue on invincibility timing who still get hurt, fret not, because even that can be turned to an advantage: it becomes a can-to-backair KO move (in-fact, you could purposefully canikaze with the grab simply so once both you are airborne you have a shot of backair'ing your opponent to their death).


So in 2 out of 3 cases of upthrow with can, you're a clear winner (either invincibility to canikaze or lower KO percentage), and even when you 'lose' (both get hit by can), you still get a shot at backair when airborne to KO again.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

I've checked the 'slide glitch' in 1.1.2 (I didn't have time to check it in 1.1.1), and I can report Nintendo have made some positive progress... the technique for reproducing it in 1.1.0 no longer works reliably and it's actually pretty difficult to replicate. I compared it to original version of super smash bros (IE no patches) and I can definitely say the slide glitch of old (which would occur pretty easily) is now largely gone.

That said, I must unfortunately report that the 'slide glitch' still exists (but compared to 1.1.0, it's much harder to replicate so Nintendo are trying to solve the issue: f-smash kills far more reliably now), and in a trial run I managed to get it to occur -once- but I was unable to find a means to replicate it consistently.

However, in For Glory, I can say the 'slide glitch' still occurs against running opponents (I managed to get it to happen about 4 times over the space of several matches). That said, I must revise my probability estimates for it's occurence: no longer is it 50/50, but it's now about 1/4 to 1/8 chance.

From analysis of the f-smash in 1.1.2, I can remark two things:
1) It's slightly faster (or feels that way)
2) The shots appear to be slightly more compressed, and
3) They've stablised the shot randomisation sufficient that slide glitch is far less regular


They do appear to be attempting to solve the issue. I think the red beam was a programmer's trick to 'catch' the opponent so the move could start the juggle, but because of some calculation error (which is more likely for runners as a running opponent is progressively changing their position - modifying the calculation), it instead hits them out of the shot instead of into it.


They appear to have made a stab at neutralising the much needed 0% Little Mac KO move (come on Nintendo, Mac KOs us at 12%!), so the timing is far trickier (the window between shielding the punch and down smash is a LOT smaller), but I can report it still works.

I might also point out it appears our frisbee is far less effective to detriment: frisbee can no longer interrupt certain moves, for example, Sonic's spin dash attack, even WITH shots (it will sometimes 'pause' or 'break' the spin but Sonic, compared to previous on 1.1.0, takes no damage and doesn't even flinch, and worse, sometimes the frisbee will have null effect). I fear they have toned down frisbee's power, perhaps to our demise.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Down-tilt, reflect, and dealing with Pacman

Thanks again to splooshi for finding the D-tilt dodge trick. Turns out it works for DHD gunmen's shots (except Pepe), which means it becomes an offensive dodge option against reflect users.

Pacman

Recently Pacman has become a camping nightmare. The classic procedure is 'spam hydrant, run away, charge item selection to key/jelly/spinning thing and attack', which not only is the dullest attack methodology bordering on boring, but extremely irritating to deal with largely because of the hydrant and it's pushback.

I will give this key piece of advice to DHD players, because it's counter-intuitive: focus on the hydrant. It's central to their control options. Why?

Firstly, incapping it early means it doesn't offer stage control with pushback, nor is it an obstacle to your projectiles once nullified (Pacman's projectiles launch it de facto so it doesn't bother them).
Secondly, Pacmen(?) utilise hydrant as a KO option by battering it. Some are smarter and let you do the hard work first before they hit it. There's a trick to beating this:

Don't assume DHD's attacks (like dash, forward air etc) will win because they lack launch power, instead your best options are frisbee with multi-hit shot and gunman.

Time your frisbee and gunman so their impacts coincide on the hydrant (you'll want gunman to hit last as he has the most launch power). Done right, it will launch, this gives a huge advantage to you temporarily, for several reasons:

1) Pacman has to stop spamming his item selection to respond, if he doesn't:
2) He runs the risk of being KO'd by his own hydrant (I've done this to several Pacmen).
3) You clear yourself an attack vector to engage them with an aggressive attack or projectile volley to trap


The hydrant becomes very much a 'tug o war', but once you get into the swing of exploiting it, Pacman has a hard time - he has to either choose to defend his hydrant (and stop item select spamming), or he has to allow it to be attacked unimpeded. I made the original mistake of going after Pacman himself, not realising the hydrant is the trap itself.


As for KO'ing Pacman: most will still item select spam when off-stage. This is a major hint that you're not edge guarding effectively. The easiest way to incap that item select spam is to can intercept them (if you have no can, just bluff jump them - you don't want to f-air when he's mobile because Pacman hits hard). It might seem futile (you're thinking they'll just air dodge) - but it prematurely terminates their item selection, which you want to thwart because the key becomes dangerous at higher percents. Essentially your main goal is to block the acquisition of the key when they're off stage and attack the hydrant when they're on.

The full approach is to force air dodge with can then f-air immediately so you catch the terminus of their dodge and KO. Because Pacman has eaten one too many pellets, he's difficult to launch (only smash moves will suffice at the 120-150% ranges), but ironically you can KO him pretty easily with his own hydrant.

 

[Joshua Flynn]

Here's video proof that the slide glitch still exists in 1.1.2: