Dskank's D3 general strategy thread.

[-Jax]

I really need to work on rolling less. It's a faster way for Dedede to get around but it's so punishable. How do you guys manage?

I used to jump and airdodge and grab on land instead of rolling in Brawl, but with the landing lag on airdodging now it's not as viable anymore. But mostly I just shield and grab their approaches, or try to use an ftilt or dtilt instead of rolling. If you're rolling to get past projectiles, simply running and stopping to shield on your way is fine as well.

You don't really need to dodge their moves necessarily, you just want to negate them. Because of this Dedede doesn't need to roll with his kit in my opinion, as you have plenty of options to keep people out of your face, meaning you don't need to roll to get them away from you. As well as having your Gordo's to help getting in their faces if you need to.

But if you really want to roll, just dtilt and you'll still be rolling without having to roll. I think I use that move more than I need to just because the animation is so troll.

 

[T4ylor]

I've got something to add to the AT section: You can actually 'Chain Grab' with King Dedede. I discovered this by accident and it is not a true combo, but may still be plenty viable. I have used it to success in actual matches already.

Here's how to do it:
Grab -> Down Throw -> Dash Forward(?) -> Short Hop -> Fast Fall Up Air -> Regrab (it can be started as soon as 30-something%)
If the Up Air completely follows through you are timing it wrong.

How to escape: Vector the Down Throw away from King Dedede or jump/spot dodge/roll immediately when the initial grab finishes.

The former is punishable by mixing it up with Forward Throw to toss them offstage, while the latter can be met with some other form of follow up (assuming godlike reaction time).

 

[Palmerfan]

What characters does it work on?

 

[T4ylor]

What characters does it work on?

All of them.

Lighter characters seem like they can easily vector out of the u air follow up, while the heavyweights look like they have a much harder time.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sheik has something like this.

HMMMMM

Smooth Criminal

 

[-Jax]

Sheik has something like this.

HMMMMM

Smooth Criminal

Just promise you wont use it against Dededes, ok?

Promise!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

But I don't wanna play Sheik. Not even as a pocket character. :V You're safe from me.

Makes me wonder if other characters with multi-hit uairs have a similar property.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Karthage]

What are DDD's tools to get around projectile spam? I will often end up at 100 damage against a good link having only gotten a tiny amount of damage on him in return. I try walking up and shielding but one of the million keepaway tools always seems to get me.

 

[Zef]

DROP DOWN FF NAIR IS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY

for real tho:
dthrow>nair high>fast fall nair>regrab works on a lot of people, it mixes them up hella

also i dont know why you're all sleeping on dthrow>rar bair, its safer than fair and can kill lol

 

[-Jax]

DROP DOWN FF NAIR IS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY

SHORTHOP FF NAIR IS WHERE IT'S AT - SUMO SMASH!

What are DDD's tools to get around projectile spam? I will often end up at 100 damage against a good link having only gotten a tiny amount of damage on him in return. I try walking up and shielding but one of the million keepaway tools always seems to get me.

I find jumping over the projectile and throwing out a Gordo occasionally works, just be sure it doesn't bounce over him or hit one of his projectiles. Other than that I'm not sure what to do. I haven't played against a good Link yet, but this is what worked for me against the Links I played. The Gordos are slow enough that you can continue approaching as they fly, maybe forcing a shield or an attack to bounce it away which you can then punish. Again, just make sure they don't hit you yourself, don't use them carelessly and figure out the approximate angles/paths they follow from several jump heights so you don't throw them over your opponent.

 

[Jabejazz]

What are DDD's tools to get around projectile spam? I will often end up at 100 damage against a good link having only gotten a tiny amount of damage on him in return. I try walking up and shielding but one of the million keepaway tools always seems to get me.

Dash canceling to shield is so good. Link might have 3 projectiles, he can still only throw one at a time. Know the timings, and abuse of the gale boomerang to get closer.

Sometimes you can even trick them into a gale boomerange boosted inhale/dsmash.

also i dont know why you're all sleeping on dthrow>rar bair, its safer than fair and can kill lol

Fair is more reliable overall, because it covers more vectoring options/more character weights.
Light and floaty characters won't get hit by a rar'd bair before the hitstun wears off. Pacman's fast as **** nair usually beats a bair.

I agree however, that it should become an habit to use rar bair when possible.

 

[Wingul]

I've got something to add to the AT section: You can actually 'Chain Grab' with King Dedede. I discovered this by accident and it is not a true combo, but may still be plenty viable. I have used it to success in actual matches already.

Here's how to do it:
Grab -> Down Throw -> Dash Forward(?) -> Short Hop -> Fast Fall Up Air -> Regrab (it can be started as soon as 30-something%)
If the Up Air completely follows through you are timing it wrong.

How to escape: Vector the Down Throw away from King Dedede or jump/spot dodge/roll immediately when the initial grab finishes.

The former is punishable by mixing it up with Forward Throw to toss them offstage, while the latter can be met with some other form of follow up (assuming godlike reaction time).

This is legit, tested against Peach at 40% on For Glory. Good find.

 

[-Jax]

This is legit, tested against Peach at 40% on For Glory. Good find.

I miss my c-stick, I wanna easily fast-fall u-airs, or do fairs while moving backwards dagnabbit

 

[WingedKnight]

Dash canceling to shield is so good. Link might have 3 projectiles, he can still only throw one at a time. Know the timings, and abuse of the gale boomerang to get closer.

Sometimes you can even trick them into a gale boomerange boosted inhale/dsmash.

This absolutely. I took -Jax's advice and it works wonders. Dedede can afford to play the slow game with the approach, and shielding is far better than rolling or getting impatient with the rush. I've used this strategy against Sheik, Rosalina, and other projectile users in For Glory to great effect. Jump when you need to, shield if you're grounded when a projectile comes your way, and gradually get close enough for some FTilt pokes and grabs. Just mind the opposing grab on tether characters like Link and Zamus who beat our range, which isn't as unholy as it once was. Aerial Gordos are also good, but need to be timed right, ideally when they are still in cool down from their projectile. Aim your bounces well!

DROP DOWN FF NAIR IS THE ONLY WAY TO PLAY

for real tho:
dthrow>nair high>fast fall nair>regrab works on a lot of people, it mixes them up hella

also i dont know why you're all sleeping on dthrow>rar bair, its safer than fair and can kill lol

Fair is more reliable overall, because it covers more vectoring options/more character weights.
Light and floaty characters won't get hit by a rar'd bair before the hitstun wears off. Pacman's fast as **** nair usually beats a bair.

I agree however, that it should become an habit to use rar bair when possible.

Adding the RAR combo to my kit has been excellent, Zef! So extra percent is nothing to laugh at, and I have regularly KO'd with it or put opponents offstage where I can mess with them some more. I think people are pretty familiar with Dedede's FAir combo thanks to some gifs that circulated soon after Japanese release, but the reverse is new for most. I have noticed that the BAir follow-up doesn't work on the floatier fighters. Against Rosalina I whiffed it twice before realizing the overhead arc of FAir meant it was still reliable. I think I recall having difficulty connecting the BAir against Lucario as well. Overall though it is superior and I have been abusing it as much as possible.

Pivots are so important! Pivot grabs are nice, but the range, multi-hit, and power of FTilt is amazing on the reverse. Retreating pokes and dash-cancels are key parts of our ground game. People are definitely underestimating the DTilt, too. The roll works great as a pseudo-dash attack when you cancel with the downward flick anyway. It has great range, decent damage, pops them up for aerials at low percents and can kill at higher percents, especially when approaching a fighter camping on the ledge. Dash-cancelled shield > DTilt has worked really well for me. Once they're offstage you can set up some Gordo pressure and jump into aerial edgeguarding.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So I've been in the lab a bit testing out gordos. I've been getting somewhat consistent results from standing near a ledge, jumping backwards off the stage and then chucking a forward-down angled gordo into the wall, at least on FD and Yoshi's. Still not entirely sure this will be a viable method of using our gordos, but being able to (nearly) reliably stick them to a wall is probably a nice tool to have regardless. I'll try testing on more stages to see how well this works out.

edit: On Battlefield, it seems you'll want to angle up instead if you want to cover the ledge. Angling down works for the rest of its wall, however.

 

[sfz]

That chain grab is a nice find! It's hard to pull off though. I have a lot of trouble getting in close enough to grab enemies at all, any tips?

 

[shlemon]

Let them come to you. You can space them out with ftilt pokes, and when they rush in you can sheild to grab. Retreating pivot grabs are nice too with the extra range.

 

[Cook]

Is dash attack a bit faster than it used to be?

 

[Jabejazz]

Doesn't feel like it is.

Somebody claimed it had super armor, but I have yet to experience it. I'm assuming this is false.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Super armor? I've been stuffed every time I use dash attack carelessly. I don't think it has super armor.

As for dash attack being faster? I'm with Jabe, it definitely doesn't feel like it. I feel like the recovery from the move is a little better overall, but it's definitely not fast enough to where it's totally safe.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Cook]

Hm, I just know I've been hitting with it a fair amount, even offline. I guess it might just be because the game is still new. Orumaybe because everyone rolls a lot. Idk.

 

[shrooby]

It feels like the hitbox for dash attack may stay out a bit longer making it slightly deceptive just how long Dedede can hurt you during the move. Other than that, though, it doesn't seem like there's major differences.
It's still not a very good move in most situations, but it's a nice move to randomly throw out when you've conditioned your opponent to think you're going to do something else.
Expecting pivot f-tilt just like every other time? Nope, dash attack.

And being that, generally, it hasn't been used, it's always stale-free!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I sometimes catch people out of laggy recoveries with dash attack. The hitbox seems to extend a bit in front of Dedede's body also. Otherwise I try not to use it, because as amazing as that animation is it's usually a pretty bad move. :/

 

[Jabejazz]

It really doesn't feel like it changed at all from its Brawl iteration.

Same hitbox, same duration, same purpose.

 

[Palmerfan]

Dash attack is good at catching rolls and hard reads on techs, it actually kills pretty early. I rarely use it outside of that though

 

[Dogars]

So what are some of Dedede's best footsies this time around?

 

[dean.]

speaking of dthrow, some other things i've found are that on real heavyweights at low percents, before nair and fair start to work, ftilt seems like a good option (probably dtilt as well i guess). and at percents after fair stops working if they DI/vector whatever inwards uair seems like a pretty consistent follow-up and kills well as well, doubt it's a true combo though lol
wrt footsies, i just run and shield a lot lol. need to know your/your opponent's optimal ranges to do this effectively. sometimes i throw out emtpy shorthops as well to bait a reaction but this is a bit riskier

 

[KeithTheGeek]

What the heck are we supposed to approach with? Defensive options are really freaking good in this game, and there's no way Dedede can approach a player that's playing a defensive style that forces you to come to them. He's big, slow, and can't work around projectiles. Plus the one tool he has that could reasonably force an approach is completely useless for the job because it can be bounced back at him.

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm starting to think Dedede is going to have a hard time in this game. He beats out characters that are forced to get in close, like Little Mac, Captain Falcon, or Donkey Kong, but anyone who can play keep away and then retaliate with faster options like Mario, ZSS, Pac-man, or Rosalina feel like they're going to curb-stomp him badly unless those players are just plain bad.

Dedede has what would otherwise be a good toolkit mitigated by the fact that Gordos are incredibly situational and the lack of a fast and strong move. He sorely misses his old bair as well, because none of his aerials save for uair comes out as quickly and lasts as long as that one does.

 

[Zef]

don't stay on the ground, 80% of the match i'm flying around up high and wait for them to leave themselves open and i'll drop down with a fastfall nair>Grab

 

[shrooby]

What the heck are we supposed to approach with? Defensive options are really freaking good in this game, and there's no way Dedede can approach a player that's playing a defensive style that forces you to come to them. He's big, slow, and can't work around projectiles. Plus the one tool he has that could reasonably force an approach is completely useless for the job because it can be bounced back at him.

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm starting to think Dedede is going to have a hard time in this game. He beats out characters that are forced to get in close, like Little Mac, Captain Falcon, or Donkey Kong, but anyone who can play keep away and then retaliate with faster options like Mario, ZSS, Pac-man, or Rosalina feel like they're going to curb-stomp him badly unless those players are just plain bad.

Dedede has what would otherwise be a good toolkit mitigated by the fact that Gordos are incredibly situational and the lack of a fast and strong move. He sorely misses his old bair as well, because none of his aerials save for uair comes out as quickly and lasts as long as that one does.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head, it would seem.

Indeed, Dedede is predominantly a defensive character. He can "clobbeh" in certain match-ups where he can afford to be defensive, but any zoning character, any character who doesn't need to approach, Dedede's got little he can do.
Dedede does have Armored Jet Hammer to get to through projectiles. Thankfully with his weight Dedede can afford to take that little bit of damage. Though it's straightforward and predictable.
It would seem as though Dedede will once again be the kind of character where he shines in some match-ups and gets demolished in others. I think having a good Dedede will almost require having a good something else--a character that can handle camping and zoning.
We'll wait to see how the King develops, though. I won't jump to conclusions just yet.

don't stay on the ground, 80% of the match i'm flying around up high and wait for them to leave themselves open and i'll drop down with a fastfall nair>Grab

A smart opponent will punish you for being in the air. Against quite a few characters Dedede does not have much of an advantage onstage in the air. Offstage is a different story, but, onstage, fast characters with good aerials will take advantage of our overall slowness in the air. Characters like Zero Suit.
If our opponent is above us I'd be inclined to agree. Dedede does have some pretty good juggling tools (upair is so good), but when below or around the same level, Dedede can struggle significantly in certain match-ups.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think if the gordos themselves weren't as easy to bounce back, like had a resistance to weaker projectiles or something it wouldn't be quite as much of an issue. But I shouldn't be taking a speeding gordo to the face cause Samus shot an uncharged paralyzer shot at it, that's just silly.

Being in the air still leaves you open, imo. You can fastfall nair to punish a mistake, but in the meantime you have to deal with Dedede's somewhat poor airspeed to get around. I think we'll do slightly better on Battlefield, just by virtue of having platforms we can move around and poke our hammer through, but as far as facing characters on Final Destination (aka 1/3 of the legal stagelist it would seem) we have an uphill battle to face, at least at this point in time.

I'm considering some other options in the meantime, like other characters, but I'd really would like to stick with Dedede. Armor jet hammer might be worth looking into, but if I was to look for custom moves I would almost rather have the dash jet hammer to counter some of the base move's weaknesses. I'm starting to miss the Waddle Dees, they make great meat shields.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I was gonna say hanging out in the air is a good way to get your penguin king's **** pushed in, unless it's specifically an air-to-air engagement or a follow-up.

I like Jabe's advice the most. Play the patient game. Stay relatively close to the ground. Abuse your godly shield and its out of shield options. Get them off the stage ASAP and start hitting them with your hammer.

...throw a Gordo in there somewhere. For me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Our air game is pitiful outside of edge guarding.

TripleD is by far the slowest character when airborne.

We don't get a lot of advantages from running, so simply walking spacing with FTilts is the better option.
And I said many times in this thread, dash cancelling into shield is really strong in this game, so if you really need to run somewhere, you can always use that.

Zoning really isn't as strong as it was back in Brawl, probably thanks to the game being slower overall.

 

[Sweet™]

DDD has mad potential.

 

[Cook]

Projectiles in general have way more lag than in Brawl, so why is shielding them as you approach not a perfectly fine way to deal them?

Just get good at powershielding.

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

Does anyone know how many frames it takes for dtilt's hitbox to come out? Cuz that thing is fast, and it's hitbox matches our fat body, so it's big too. I think it could be a pretty nice OoS option that's an alternative to grabbing.

 

[Karthage]

God, I am so close to dropping DDD after about 700 for glory matches.

He's a pretty good against the bottom 90% of players, but then it just feels like a brick wall.

Maybe you guys can help me with my issues

Issues: Side B almost useless against good players
Every gordo gets bounced back by everything, so the move is almost worse than nothing. Throwing it out in all but a tiny number of situations results in a ton of damage to DDD's face, a large knock back, and complete loss of any control/momentum.

Issue: Without side B, he is forced to approach, but he moves like a blimp in the air and bowser on the ground
He's not like captain falcon or other close range specialists. Nothing I've done seems to put me even on equal ground with projectile users. I'm basically forced to deal with all of their tools while I am limited to almost exclusively shield grabs.

Issue: Inconsistent grab follow ups.
I thought his grab game was great at first, but now I think it's just ok. Follow ups feel like guess work against competent opposition when DDD really needs true combos out of Dthrow to equal other character options

Issue: Rolls, but not roll spam
His ability to punish rolls feels awful. Dsmash works against very predictable people, but nothing seems to work except a hard read on roll and a hard read on the timing of the roll when the opponent isn't stupid.

It just feels impossible to approach with any aerial being shielded and punished on the landing lag, and ground attacks being halted by projectiles, and then even when you get it right it's hard to keep the offense going with his mobility.

 

[sfz]

I feel your pain.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

'Zard is a pain in the ass. That is all.

Smooth Criminal

 

[dean.]

has anyone tried dedede's custom side-Bs?
i was going to have a mate over on friday to have a play around with them before a tournament on saturday but am keen to hear from the experience of others.