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down dodge too good

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
I've been playing pm for a while now. And I got to say the down dodges are becoming rediculous. Theres no reason why I read my opponent and I'm one step ahead of them out of there rolls only for them to just instantly down dodge my attack. Has anyone else found this to be annoying? It kind of takes tech chasing out of the game. Cause if u can dodge instantly out of roll then what's the point? And the invincability frames on a lot of characters has gone to far. Again this is just my oppinion. But I think it needs to be toned down a tad like it was in melee. I never have issues like this in melee. Only out of a roll or tech roll. Thanks.
 

Fortress

Smash Master
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Oct 2, 2013
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You're not serious, right? If you're really 'one step ahead of them', then you'd see that they're a habitual spot dodger out of roll and get a free attack/grab out of it when they spot dodge against nothing after their roll out of habit. This isn't a problem that anybody at even an intermediate level of play has. Your opponent performing a spot dodge is just another moment that they're standing still, and going to be vulnerable after performing. Improve your game and learn to capitalize on your opponent's bad habit.
 

9bit

BRoomer
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"Side-step" all the way. Interestingly enough, I had a buddy who called it "down dodge" as well, I guess it's more common than I thought.
 

EclipseKirby

Smash Cadet
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Oct 25, 2008
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Tech rolls are usually vulnerable for the latter half of the roll, so punishing them is very doable if you get your attack out at the right place and time. In place techs don't leave as much punish time, but they are there. If you can't get a punish in time, spot dodges too may be quick, but they are vulnerable for a while, about the last third or so of the animation for everyone I believe. Waiting, perhaps with a dash dance for the spot dodge, putting out a move with a lot of active frames, or throwing out a move that recovers quickly enough to punish the spot dodge option afterwards will all punish spot dodging
 
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shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
Except one person who responded I love how anal the smash community is. You ask people about something and they call you a below average player smh. Thanks that helped remind to never ask anything ever again deush.
 

Empyrean

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Wait a minute...

WAIT.
A.
MINUTE.

....Am I the only one who calls it side-step?
Same here. I hate the terms "spot-dodge" and "down-dodge", which I had never heard before until now. Dunno why the community is so intent on using different terms.
 

arcticfox8

Smash Champion
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Oct 6, 2013
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Good times, KY
Except one person who responded I love how anal the smash community is. You ask people about something and they call you a below average player smh. Thanks that helped remind to never ask anything ever again deush.
So you're one of those guys
None of the posts besides maybe the first one said you were a bad player, all the other ones gave you tips on how to deal with it. I doubt the PMBR will be nerfing "down dodges" anytime soon. The best thing for your troubles would be to learn how to deal with it. Lucky for you you've been given plenty of options to do so. If you intend to get better than you should be willing to adapt and learn. If not, then I wouldn't worry about "down dodges"
 

Celestis

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Feb 19, 2012
Messages
513
Except one person who responded I love how anal the smash community is. You ask people about something and they call you a below average player smh. Thanks that helped remind to never ask anything ever again deush.
The question is startling because I've never heard someone complain about the spot dodge before. But I don't see why you're upset. You got answers. Punish the habit; turn this thing you find annoying into one of their weakness.
 

Terotrous

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Am I the only one who calls it side-step?
"Step-dodge" here.


Anyway, to answer the TC, all of the dodges have a period of vulnerability after the invulnerable period ends, you need to time your attacks to hit them during this time. A simple way to go about this is to use an attack that has a lot of active frames, then you don't have to time the attack particularly well. With Ganon, you could try Dash Attack, Flame Choke, or Warlock Foot as easy roll punish moves.
 

Spralwers

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 5, 2011
Messages
517
Location
MA
Your topic attracted all that negativity because of how you phrased yourself.

Your topic title could've been as simple as "having trouble with spot dodges" and your post could've been as simple as "I'm having trouble punishing people who spot dodge, what should I do? People are spot dodging out of roll and I'm having trouble with the invincibility frames." This doesn't leave any room for people to go out and call you a below average player and to tell you to get better - it'd be completely out of context and and rather rude. You're having trouble with some part of the game and asking for advice and therefore looking to improve. It's what we all like.

But if you say something like, "oh I've been playing pm for a while, spot dodging is overpowered and should be toned down," you're asking for people to call you a below average player and to tell you to get better. Especially because you're not even asking for criticism on how to deal with it, just calling it to be nerfed because you can't deal with it.

It happens though. You know now, so just don't make a habit out of complaining about how something is overpowered when really what you're looking for is advice on how to deal with it.
 
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McSlur

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Apr 5, 2014
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222
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Trashville, Colorado
Same here. I hate the terms "spot-dodge" and "down-dodge", which I had never heard before until now. Dunno why the community is so intent on using different terms.
I just call it a dodge...?
You have air dodges, rolls, and dodges. Eh, whatever.

It helps me to look at the frame data for the characters and see when exactly their "dodge" runs out.
 
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Nazo

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Jul 8, 2012
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I just call it a dodge...?
You have air dodges, rolls, and dodges. Eh, whatever.

It helps me to look at the frame data for the characters and see when exactly their "dodge" runs out.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who dislike the term "dodge"

Intangible-static-maneuvering OP?
 
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Fortress

Smash Master
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Oct 2, 2013
Messages
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Except one person who responded I love how anal the smash community is. You ask people about something and they call you a below average player smh. Thanks that helped remind to never ask anything ever again deush.
I didn't call you bad, I just told you to learn how to play better before calling a mechanic in the game broken. Of course I'm going to be the person to trod on you when you use phrasing like "I'm always ahead of them", implying that "I'm really good and if this mechanic is beating me then it must be way too good, pls nerf". I don't remember when it became taboo to call out such outrageous phrasing instead of enabling it and being so nurturing.

So, yeah, learn to play better before you write something off as 'broken'. My bad for not phrasing it with rainbows and sunshine.
 
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CORY

wut
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Same here. I hate the terms "spot-dodge" and "down-dodge", which I had never heard before until now. Dunno why the community is so intent on using different terms.
i think it's because you can pretty intrinsically understand what he (or anyone else means) when they say spot dodge, down dodge, sidestep, etc...

as long as it's not just making up junk that doesn't mean anything, such as "i just used my up side smash in the air!", or have confusing variants (such as reverse b versus b reverse ;x) there's not too much point in being too much a stickler over the terminology used.
 

Fortress

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i think it's because you can pretty intrinsically understand what he (or anyone else means) when they say spot dodge, down dodge, sidestep, etc...

as long as it's not just making up junk that doesn't mean anything, such as "i just used my up side smash in the air!", or have confusing variants (such as reverse b versus b reverse ;x) there's not too much point in being too much a stickler over the terminology used.
Did you mean to say that you were side smashing aerial while reverse wavebounceing it? That's my favorite move.
 
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CORY

wut
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i don't even know what i was trying to say anymore : ( i just remembered people saying whack stuff like that back when melee first came out, so my non-mod self went and started correcting people obsessively using the standard terminology until it stuck.

srsly, though, wtf is an aerial side smash in the air? some people...
 

shwickid222

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Oct 5, 2013
Messages
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Ummm ever since melee come out people have been saying down dodge... idk y this is soo weird to everyone unless you have only been playing since 09 or something. Terms have evolved. I've even heard d1 and prog the epic comentators say "down dodge" lmfao.
 

Scuba Steve

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Since you have played ever since Melee came out, you should be well aware that spotdodges in PM are pretty much exactly the same as they are in Melee and that they are in fact not "too good."
 

Fortress

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No yhere not? Da fwuck
Yes, they are, and start considering the fact that you're absolutely, unequivocally, doubtlessly, nowhere near as skilled as you think you are, and read up on it.

If I really need to go through the effort to prove you wrong, then here. Take, for example, Roy's spotdodge data.

[collapse=Melee, fool]
[/collapse]

As you can clearly see, intangibility starting frames 2/3 and ending ~7/18, with about 28 total frames in the animation.

In PM, Roy's intangibility starts on frame 2, and ends on frame 18, with (say it with me this time) 28 total frames. Identical.

Ganondorf, your main (and, pay attention, because you'll really want to know this for your own character), has thirty-two total frames in his dodge in both Melee and PM, and is intangible from frames 2-20 in both games.

Click me for Ganondorf's frame data in PM.
Click me for Ganondorf's frame data in Melee.

Link's spot dodge lasts for 22 frames in Melee, and 23 in PM (so, in actuality, it's weaker), with intangibility lasting for 11 frames (during frames 2-13).

Melee data.
PM data.

Ness in Melee has a 27-frame spot dodge with intangibility from frames 2-18, and a 27-frame dodge in PM with intangibility from frames 2-17.

Bowser's an example of a character whose spot-dodge did get better; roughly ten frames faster, to be somewhat exact. Though, he has less intangible frames (by 2, I believe).

So, yes, spotdodges/ground dodges/down dodges are nearly exactly the same, barring Brawl characters and specific character alterations (ala Bowser) in Melee. Study up before opening your mouth.

#wrektintheyear2014
 
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Celestis

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
513
Ummm ever since melee come out people have been saying down dodge... idk y this is soo weird to everyone unless you have only been playing since 09 or something. Terms have evolved. I've even heard d1 and prog the epic comentators say "down dodge" lmfao.
It's always been spot dodge or side step where I am from.
 

shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
226
Yes, they are, and start considering the fact that you're absolutely, unequivocally, doubtlessly, nowhere near as skilled as you think you are, and read up on it.

If I really need to go through the effort to prove you wrong, then here. Take, for example, Roy's spotdodge data.

[collapse=Melee, fool]
[/collapse]

As you can clearly see, intangibility starting frames 2/3 and ending ~7/18, with about 28 total frames in the animation.

In PM, Roy's intangibility starts on frame 2, and ends on frame 18, with (say it with me this time) 28 total frames. Identical.

Ganondorf, your main (and, pay attention, because you'll really want to know this for your own character), has thirty-two total frames in his dodge in both Melee and PM, and is intangible from frames 2-20 in both games.

Click me for Ganondorf's frame data in PM.
Click me for Ganondorf's frame data in Melee.

Link's spot dodge lasts for 22 frames in Melee, and 23 in PM (so, in actuality, it's weaker), with intangibility lasting for 11 frames (during frames 2-13).

Melee data.
PM data.

Ness in Melee has a 27-frame spot dodge with intangibility from frames 2-18, and a 27-frame dodge in PM with intangibility from frames 2-17.

Bowser's an example of a character whose spot-dodge did get better; roughly ten frames faster, to be somewhat exact. Though, he has less intangible frames (by 2, I believe).

So, yes, spotdodges/ground dodges/down dodges are nearly exactly the same, barring Brawl characters and specific character alterations (ala Bowser) in Melee. Study up before opening your mouth.

#wrektintheyear2014
Those suttle changes matter. Again Im talking about out of rolls and being instant with dodges out of rolls. I'm not talking about someone just down dodging. So why dodobt you read before you "school me" in this musical. Again in melee I don't have this issue. Ill lost a video in a few days and point out exactly what I mean.
 
D

Deleted member 245254

Guest
Um...

*quietly raises hand...

Shield dodge?

No? Nobody?

*slowly turns around and makes way out
 

arcticfox8

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Those suttle changes matter. Again Im talking about out of rolls and being instant with dodges out of rolls. I'm not talking about someone just down dodging. So why dodobt you read before you "school me" in this musical. Again in melee I don't have this issue. Ill lost a video in a few days and point out exactly what I mean.
Regardless of the changes you still punish them the same
 

CORY

wut
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dodges are not instant out of rolls. you roll, you have your end lag of the roll which is vulnerable (with this vulnerable period being variable, depending on character). then, you start your dodge, which has X frames of start up, then the intangibility, then end lag.

there's no roll cancelling that causes a dodge to instantly occur while skipping the roll's end lag and the dodge's start up.
 

Celestis

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
513
Those suttle changes matter. Again Im talking about out of rolls and being instant with dodges out of rolls. I'm not talking about someone just down dodging. So why dodobt you read before you "school me" in this musical. Again in melee I don't have this issue. Ill lost a video in a few days and point out exactly what I mean.
Or you could stop blaming the game and blame yourself. It's okay to be wrong and need to get better at something. Not the end of the world, I promise.

You're the only one complaining about this and the only one to ever bring up spot dodging for any reason. Whats the common denominator here? =/
 
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shwickid222

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 5, 2013
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226
Lmao or maybe no one had balls to ask since everyone likes to put people sown on here. Hmmmm
 

SpiderMad

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May 6, 2012
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spotdodges in Brawl were over-good though, think Reflex has some posts on that
 
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