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Doubles Charizard: Viable Partners, strategies and best options to kill.

RAzul

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Hey guys, :006: is one of my beloved characters. I'm a huge Pokémon fan and he represents the best Gen imo -- Gen 1!!!! (Though :009: is my boy lol.) I really love the way he plays out of all the Pokémon available to use in Sm4sh. Anyways, I've been improving my game with him in singles and want to begin using him in doubles but don't quite know how to go about it. I know his new buffs have been very helpful but is there anything specific that any of you may share to help improve my gameand seal stocks? Any critiques are welcome. Thanks y'all!:grin:
 

Steeler

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Honestly I don't think Zard is very good in doubles, his size and vulnerability in bad air spots really constrain what you and your partner can do sometimes.

That said, he can also help snowball your team very quickly with his plethora of kill moves. Flamethrower is amazing if you can zone both opponents into it. You can do a pretty nice job of blocking off a portion of the stage in order to let your partner take advantage of a good 1v1 situation.

It's really dependent on your teammate. Your partner really needs to be able to get you out of tight spots and cover your weaknesses. They need to play a character that doesn't force you to be the aggressor - you are a hefty zoner/defensive character with insane punish capabilities. Naturally this is harder to play and team with than a mobile character that can easily transition between offense and defense (Sheik, Sonic, Wario, etc.)
 

RAzul

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Okay, with all the knowledge said (and appreciated), then what IS he good for if not doubles? Cuz singles he's not really super viable either. My guess now is that he's a niche-counter pick. Seems about right. His up throw is a real winner and he has some of the beat punish game (%-wise) in the game.
 

RAzul

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Honestly I don't think Zard is very good in doubles, his size and vulnerability in bad air spots really constrain what you and your partner can do sometimes.

That said, he can also help snowball your team very quickly with his plethora of kill moves. Flamethrower is amazing if you can zone both opponents into it. You can do a pretty nice job of blocking off a portion of the stage in order to let your partner take advantage of a good 1v1 situation.

It's really dependent on your teammate. Your partner really needs to be able to get you out of tight spots and cover your weaknesses. They need to play a character that doesn't force you to be the aggressor - you are a hefty zoner/defensive character with insane punish capabilities. Naturally this is harder to play and team with than a mobile character that can easily transition between offense and defense (Sheik, Sonic, Wario, etc.)
Okay, with all that knowledge said (and appreciated), then what IS he good for if not doubles? Cuz singles he's not really super viable either. My guess now is that he's a niche-counter pick. Seems about right. His up throw is a real winner and he has some of the beat punish game (%-wise) in the game.
 

charizardbro

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Mar 8, 2015
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Zard is pretty ok in doubles imo. Bowser generally does what Zard does a little better though. He's a heavy that has nice defensive options so naturally you might want to try stock tanking with him. Being heavy also leaves him pretty vulnerable to 2v1 combos so a quick teammate is usually a good option. In terms of team combos, he works pretty well with anyone that can set him up for a smash attack or flare blitz with throws with good horizontal knockback. His niche over Bowser, the heavier and harder-hitting heavy, comes from Flare Blitz, Flamethrower, and better (imo) neutral spacing. Like Steeler said, Flamethrower is good for stalling an opponent at the ledge so that your teammate can exploit a favorable 1v1 situation on another part of the stage and provides neutral spacing that Bowser's fire breath can't. Flare Blitz can make for insane aerial team combos and helps Charizard get in on team combos even when he's far away. Flare Blitz also helps you get out of combos if your teammate has control of the other end of the stage and provides Zard with very little need to have support to recover, unlike Bowser..

On the other hand, Bowser is a little heavier, capitalizes better on aerial/grounded team combos from close, and has a harder time covering ledge options. If all you want is a hard hitting stock tank, Bowser is usually the way to go.

For teammates, I would recommend ZSS. Her grabs work well for team combos and she can reach into flamethrower with her tether to set them up. She is very mobile with Flip Kick and she can get to Zard quickly when he is getting combo'd. She requires a lot less support for recovery and can't give much but this is usually a pretty favorable arrangement for Zard. Her throws and paralyzer also work well to set up Zard for nice combos. She is also a good aggressor from neutral that can cover Zard while he stock tanks, if that is desired.
 

RadianB

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When playing Charizard in doubles try to abuse Up B by having your partner Up Throw your opponent so you can get early kills.
 

RAzul

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Zard is pretty ok in doubles imo. Bowser generally does what Zard does a little better though. He's a heavy that has nice defensive options so naturally you might want to try stock tanking with him. Being heavy also leaves him pretty vulnerable to 2v1 combos so a quick teammate is usually a good option. In terms of team combos, he works pretty well with anyone that can set him up for a smash attack or flare blitz with throws with good horizontal knockback. His niche over Bowser, the heavier and harder-hitting heavy, comes from Flare Blitz, Flamethrower, and better (imo) neutral spacing. Like Steeler said, Flamethrower is good for stalling an opponent at the ledge so that your teammate can exploit a favorable 1v1 situation on another part of the stage and provides neutral spacing that Bowser's fire breath can't. Flare Blitz can make for insane aerial team combos and helps Charizard get in on team combos even when he's far away. Flare Blitz also helps you get out of combos if your teammate has control of the other end of the stage and provides Zard with very little need to have support to recover, unlike Bowser..

On the other hand, Bowser is a little heavier, capitalizes better on aerial/grounded team combos from close, and has a harder time covering ledge options. If all you want is a hard hitting stock tank, Bowser is usually the way to go.

For teammates, I would recommend ZSS. Her grabs work well for team combos and she can reach into flamethrower with her tether to set them up. She is very mobile with Flip Kick and she can get to Zard quickly when he is getting combo'd. She requires a lot less support for recovery and can't give much but this is usually a pretty favorable arrangement for Zard. Her throws and paralyzer also work well to set up Zard for nice combos. She is also a good aggressor from neutral that can cover Zard while he stock tanks, if that is desired.
When playing Charizard in doubles try to abuse Up B by having your partner Up Throw your opponent so you can get early kills.
Fantastic feedback. Thank you both so much!!
 
Last edited:

Knee Smasher

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Okay, with all that knowledge said (and appreciated), then what IS he good for if not doubles? Cuz singles he's not really super viable either. My guess now is that he's a niche-counter pick. Seems about right. His up throw is a real winner and he has some of the beat punish game (%-wise) in the game.
1 VS. 1 is where Charizard is good.
2 VS. 2 is where Charizard is bad.

I do not get where the idea of the opposite being true comes from.

The only way Charizard can be decent in 2 VS. 2 in my opinion is if Team Attack is off, as in that case he can not only freely use Flamethrower without fear of catching his teammate in it, but his teammate can also abuse the hitstun caused by Flamethrower to attack the opponent.

In Smash, characters can be put in one of the two following categories: Chaos-based characters, and order-based characters.

Chaos-based characters become more viable the more "chaotic" the environment they find themselves in. These characters do better in FFA and Team Battle than 1 VS. 1, and most likely even increase in viability the more players you add to the match (like in 3 VS. 3 and 4 VS. 4 via 8-Player Smash). Chaos-based characters generally succeed in dealing most of their damage independent on stage control, edgeguarding, spacing and combos (not to say that they cannot do these things well, but they can be successful even without them), and also generally hit very hard, with some moves that are extremely rewarding but are very hard to hit a good player with in 1 VS. 1, and also rarely if ever leaves themselves open to being attacked by one character while they are busy dealing with another. These characters greatly appreciate the chaos of having more than two players on the stage and the opponents having to focus on more than one character, which makes it easier for them to be hit by powerful moves that may not be practical in 1 VS. 1 where the opponent has only one character to focus on. Two examples of chaos-based characters are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. They hit very hard, have devastating moves that are much easier to land with in a chaotic environment, and a lot of the damage that they deal comes in a single, quick hit, meaning they do not have to leave themselves open to being attacked by a third character while performing a combo or anything like that, and both of these characters also don't rely on stage control for success, especially in the case of Captain Falcon, who has sheer mobility as one of his greatest strengths.

Order-based characters become less viable the more "chaotic" the environment they find themselves in. They perform optimally in 1 VS. 1, but fare more and more poorly the more characters are added to the match. In 1 VS. 1, these characters succeed mostly by relying on combos, edgeguarding, or means of stage control, but all three of the aforementioned means of success become far less applicable outside of 1 VS. 1 due to the possibility of being attacked by a third character while edgeguarding or combo'ing another character, and stage control as a concept pretty much goes out the window or is at least heavily altered when there are more than two characters on the stage. Order-based characters also tend to rely on spacing a lot, something which is very hard and easily disrupted in a chaotic environment. Two examples of order-based characters are Charizard and Rosalina & Luma. A large amount of the damage that Charizard deals in 1 VS. 1 comes from Flamethrower (through edgeguarding or otherwise), spamming jab and using pummels/throws, all of which leave him open to being hit by a third character, and with Flamethrower and Nair spacing and all as well as his edgeguarding, he is also obviously a very stage control-based character. As is Rosalina & Luma, one of whom's major strategy involves positioning Luma properly on the stage in order to make safely landing or approaching difficult for the opponent, and a more chaotic environment is especially debilitating for this character as Luma tends to die more quickly in such matches.
 

RAzul

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1 VS. 1 is where Charizard is good.
2 VS. 2 is where Charizard is bad.

I do not get where the idea of the opposite being true comes from.

The only way Charizard can be decent in 2 VS. 2 in my opinion is if Team Attack is off, as in that case he can not only freely use Flamethrower without fear of catching his teammate in it, but his teammate can also abuse the hitstun caused by Flamethrower to attack the opponent.

In Smash, characters can be put in one of the two following categories: Chaos-based characters, and order-based characters.

Chaos-based characters become more viable the more "chaotic" the environment they find themselves in. These characters do better in FFA and Team Battle than 1 VS. 1, and most likely even increase in viability the more players you add to the match (like in 3 VS. 3 and 4 VS. 4 via 8-Player Smash). Chaos-based characters generally succeed in dealing most of their damage independent on stage control, edgeguarding, spacing and combos (not to say that they cannot do these things well, but they can be successful even without them), and also generally hit very hard, with some moves that are extremely rewarding but are very hard to hit a good player with in 1 VS. 1, and also rarely if ever leaves themselves open to being attacked by one character while they are busy dealing with another. These characters greatly appreciate the chaos of having more than two players on the stage and the opponents having to focus on more than one character, which makes it easier for them to be hit by powerful moves that may not be practical in 1 VS. 1 where the opponent has only one character to focus on. Two examples of chaos-based characters are Captain Falcon and Ganondorf. They hit very hard, have devastating moves that are much easier to land with in a chaotic environment, and a lot of the damage that they deal comes in a single, quick hit, meaning they do not have to leave themselves open to being attacked by a third character while performing a combo or anything like that, and both of these characters also don't rely on stage control for success, especially in the case of Captain Falcon, who has sheer mobility as one of his greatest strengths.

Order-based characters become less viable the more "chaotic" the environment they find themselves in. They perform optimally in 1 VS. 1, but fare more and more poorly the more characters are added to the match. In 1 VS. 1, these characters succeed mostly by relying on combos, edgeguarding, or means of stage control, but all three of the aforementioned means of success become far less applicable outside of 1 VS. 1 due to the possibility of being attacked by a third character while edgeguarding or combo'ing another character, and stage control as a concept pretty much goes out the window or is at least heavily altered when there are more than two characters on the stage. Order-based characters also tend to rely on spacing a lot, something which is very hard and easily disrupted in a chaotic environment. Two examples of order-based characters are Charizard and Rosalina & Luma. A large amount of the damage that Charizard deals in 1 VS. 1 comes from Flamethrower (through edgeguarding or otherwise), spamming jab and using pummels/throws, all of which leave him open to being hit by a third character, and with Flamethrower and Nair spacing and all as well as his edgeguarding, he is also obviously a very stage control-based character. As is Rosalina & Luma, one of whom's major strategy involves positioning Luma properly on the stage in order to make safely landing or approaching difficult for the opponent, and a more chaotic environment is especially debilitating for this character as Luma tends to die more quickly in such matches.
Very intriguing and elaborate take on this. I greatly appreciated your input. Thank you.
 

Z1GMA

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In doubles, I feel Zard has a lot of similarities to Ganon when it comes to doubles. (Ganon is really good in doubles.)

He's a character that can make the best out of "free hitstun" (someone beeing lauched your way).
Ganon is the best character in the game at this, and I believe Zard is also very good at this.
Your partner throws them across the stage, and there you are with a superstrong aerial to finish the job.

It's also nice to be able to kill slippery Stock Holders with Zard's Uthrow at around 100%, especially since it's easier to get grabs in 2on2 than in 1on1 due to chaos.

Zard's Dthrow is also a great throw for setting upp ppl for your partner to kill.

Zard is easy to juggle, yeah, but your mate can support you get you out of stuff sometimes.

Lastly, nB can often grant your mate a free attack on ppl who are caught in it.
Resting ppl in the fire is awesome, as Jiggly's sleep-animation is canceled right after it hits, by the fire.
 

RAzul

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In doubles, I feel Zard has a lot of similarities to Ganon when it comes to doubles. (Ganon is really good in doubles.)

He's a character that can make the best out of "free hitstun" (someone beeing lauched your way).
Ganon is the best character in the game at this, and I believe Zard is also very good at this.
Your partner throws them across the stage, and there you are with a superstrong aerial to finish the job.

It's also nice to be able to kill slippery Stock Holders with Zard's Uthrow at around 100%, especially since it's easier to get grabs in 2on2 than in 1on1 due to chaos.

Zard's Dthrow is also a great throw for setting upp ppl for your partner to kill.

Zard is easy to juggle, yeah, but your mate can support you get you out of stuff sometimes.

Lastly, nB can often grant your mate a free attack on ppl who are caught in it.
Resting ppl in the fire is awesome, as Jiggly's sleep-animation is canceled right after it hits, by the fire.
Hmm. Great advice man! Thx for this!
 

Rashid

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I just entered (and won) a doubles tournament today mostly using Charizard. My partner was using Fox and Falcon, depending on our opponents.

Our general strategy was having him occupy space with his speed, leaving them vulnerable for me to swoop in. I'd also contribute by using Flamethrower. Kills are easy; just ban FD and snipe for up throw kills. I think 90% of my kills were with up throw. Down throw is a free confirm for your partner.

Also, with Charizard's good vertical recovery, you can go low enough to save your partner if they can't make it back to the stage. (if that ever really happens)

My biggest problem was landing. A huge floaty is just begging to get his landing punished by two people, so this is where your partner comes in; clearing the ground for you.

I think the general idea has been covered by everyone else.

tl;dr Partner complements Charizard's neutral, snipe for up throw kills. #BanFD
 
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RAzul

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I just entered (and won) a doubles tournament today mostly using Charizard. My partner was using Fox and Falcon, depending on our opponents.

Our general strategy was having him occupy space with his space, leaving them vulnerable for me to swoop in. I'd also contribute by using Flamethrower. Kills are easy; just ban FD and snipe for up throw kills. I think 90% of my kills were with up throw. Down throw is a free confirm for your partner.

Also, with Charizard's good vertical recovery, you can go low enough to save your partner if they can't make it back to the stage. (if that ever really happens)

My biggest problem was landing. A huge floaty is just begging to get his landing punished by two people, so this is where your partner comes in; clearing the ground for you.

I think the general idea has been covered by everyone else.

tl;dr Partner complements Charizard's neutral, snipe for up throw kills. #BanFD
You're a saint for this. Thanks a ton dude and congrats on the win!
 

Rashid

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