Double stick di out of marth's platform combos

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#1
There exists a neat little trick you can sometimes use to get out of marth's platform combos, or even punish him for hitting you on the edge of a platform.

How to do it: When you get hit close to the edge of a platform, trajectory di the hit away from the platform with control stick, and at the same time ASDI down with c-stick to force a knockdown. The idea is that if you manage to collide into the platform, you then immediately slide down off the platform because of the horizontal momentum you gain from the hit with your trajectory di away. Sliding off the platform cancels the knockdown animation, and you're free to act immediately.

When to do it: I've found that this di works well versus marth's uair in tech chase situations. I tech roll into either edge off the platform, preferably away from marth if that makes me hard to hit. Then I double stick di if he chases me up with uair, ff and land before the marth does. Here's a gif showing what it looks like (Thank you @schmooblidon for the gif):

And yeah, if you're fast enough, you can grab the marth, but it's hard to react fast enough. I usually do this to just escape the combo and reset to neutral.

Possible problems: This is a lot harder to pull of against utilt, especially if the marth mixes up using the forward and backward hitboxes. For example, if the marth uses forward hitbox, it sends you backward across the platform. In this case, if you have enough %, you can sometime di toward the marth to slide across he whole plat and get away from the combo. But if he hits you with backward hitbox, you get sent away from the plat at very high angle, so you need to di that away from the marth. If the marth stands in the right place below you, I think he can actually hit you with either hitboxes by just turning around, so it becomes a mixup game. The percentage range this works is also smaller than with uair, since the utilt has higher kb growth.

Another problem that comes to mind is that you become vulnerable to fsmashes at mid%. In low percentage you usually get at least the ledge, so that's not a problem, but tipper fsmash on the double stick di can be lethal / lead to edge guard situation pretty quickly.

Also I don't think you should make yourself predictable by always tech rolling to the edges of platforms, because you can still be punished for that with other options in many cases.

Percentage ranges (PAL): These are the highest percentages on which I have managed to force collision to platform, which is required with this tech. The percentages are pre-hit with unstaled move.

Marth:
Upair Tipper: 58%
Uptilt Tipper Front: 46%
Uptilt Tipper Back: 27%

I hope this is helpful, and I welcome any thoughts and critique, and especially testing and application results. I have never seen anyone but myself doing this, so I don't have that much knowledge on the viability of the option.
 
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Joined
Feb 2, 2014
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#2
So to input this I can be holding my DI and ASDI before I get hit, since c-stick asdi has priority over control stick asdi correct? And in the GIF example is the fox just DIing straight left, and ASDIing straight down? Also does it make a difference if you tech rolled, teched in place, no teched, or wake up rolled to the position? I've gotten this "cancelled knockdown animation" a lot of times by random chance and it's always a blessing when it happens so it is very cool to see a set up for this =]
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#3
Your inputs are correct.

Tech rolling makes you stay on the plat, and that is what you do when amsah teching to survive. I was in fact inspired by amsah teching, so this is kind of amsah teching without the tech. But since tech rolling means you're stuck in the 40 frames roll animation, that can usually be punished.

Tech in place would work if you could actually do it. But because you want to di as much away as possible, that also means you input tech roll if you tech. You can't wake up until the 26 frame knockdown animation finishes, so that has no relevance.
 
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#4
If you have missed a tech and then roll to the platform edge then you could still DI and ASDI as he upairs to force a knockdown animation and then cancel it is what I meant. But yes this could be risky if he decides to tipper you instead :facepalm:
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#5
If he tippers you offstage, then it's very bad at I think like 30%. If he hits you toward center stage, you're safe for considerably higher percents. Fsmashes are also harder to get reactively than uairs. Utilts are my main problem at the moment, since it's hard to get the correct di for them.

From personal experience it seems tipper fsmashes won't get you that often, though it could just be that my opponents aren't good enough at adapting. I can also quite often avoid combos, that otherwise would guarantee a lot of damage, and sometimes lead into tipper anyway.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#9
No it isn't fox specific. Though in order to get a grounded move before marth can act, your char has to fall fast.

With some chars long ranged aerials are probably possible; I think sheik/marth could often fair/nair. Samus could perhaps missile, or charge shot in addition to aerials. But I play only fox, so I haven't thought too much about application with other chars.
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#10
Updated the op with some pal percentage ranges where this works. If anyone is willing to test ranges for NTSC, I would be grateful. NTSC fox is heavier, so I expect collision to be possible to slightly higher percentages.

Edit: Did some kb calculations, and the weight difference has so little effect that the range is basically the same, not even a difference of a single percent.
 
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Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
#11
There exists a neat little trick you can sometimes use to get out of marth's platform combos, or even punish him for hitting you on the edge of a platform.

How to do it: When you get hit close to the edge of a platform, trajectory di the hit away from the platform with control stick, and at the same time ASDI down with c-stick to force a knockdown. The idea is that if you manage to collide into the platform, you then immediately slide down off the platform because of the horizontal momentum you gain from the hit with your trajectory di away. Sliding off the platform cancels the knockdown animation, and you're free to act immediately.

When to do it: I've found that this di works well versus marth's uair in tech chase situations. I tech roll into either edge off the platform, preferably away from marth if that makes me hard to hit. Then I double stick di if he chases me up with uair, ff and land before the marth does. Here's a gif showing what it looks like (Thank you @schmooblidon for the gif):

And yeah, if you're fast enough, you can grab the marth, but it's hard to react fast enough. I usually do this to just escape the combo and reset to neutral. The percentage range this works against uair is IIRC something like 0-50% before hit in PAL, but I will test this more to get exact range later.

Possible problems: This is a lot harder to pull of against utilt, especially if the marth mixes up using the forward and backward hitboxes. For example, if the marth uses forward hitbox, it sends you backward across the platform. In this case, if you have enough %, you can sometime di toward the marth to slide across he whole plat and get away from the combo. But if he hits you with backward hitbox, you get sent away from the plat at very high angle, so you need to di that away from the marth. If the marth stands in the right place below you, I think he can actually hit you with either hitboxes by just turning around, so it becomes a mixup game. The percentage range this works is also smaller than with uair, since the utilt has higher kb growth.

Another problem that comes to mind is that you become vulnerable to fsmashes at mid%. In low percentage you usually get at least the ledge, so that's not a problem, but tipper fsmash on the double stick di can be lethal / lead to edge guard situation pretty quickly.

Also I don't think you should make yourself predictable by always tech rolling to the edges of platforms, because you can still be punished for that with other options in many cases.

Percentage ranges (PAL): These are the highest percentages on which I have managed to force collision to platform, which is required with this tech. The percentages are pre-hit with unstaled move.

Marth:
Upair Tipper: 58%
Uptilt Tipper Front: 46%
Uptilt Tipper Back: 27%

I hope this is helpful, and I welcome any thoughts and critique, and especially testing and application results. I have never seen anyone but myself doing this, so I don't have that much knowledge on the viability of the option.

forgive me for my sins

i showed this to mew2king
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#12
forgive me for my sins

i showed this to mew2king
It's all good dude, I wouldn't have posted this here if I wanted to keep it secret, I just want to push the metagame. Actually I really appreciate that you showcased this on stream! Besides which, top foxes don't even seem to be interested at all, but at least someone cares. Also I like the fact that some of you marth mains still visit smashboards :).

Also I think this tech can be occasionally useful in the marth ditto, so maybe we'll see some of that in the future.
 
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tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,337
#13
Druggedfox (and Leffen?) discovered that during the end frames of your tech roll (frames 31-40), you can actually be a tiny bit besides the platform horizontally. So if you get hit by a move late into your tech roll and ASDI straight down, you'll miss the platform. To combat this horizontal offset, you can ASDI down and very slightly toward the platform instead of straight down. You'll still always be very close to the edge during the roll, so only a tiny bit of horizontal ASDI is needed against hitboxes with high launch angle.


To ASDI slide-off vs Marth's upair near the end of a tech roll, you need to:
  1. Trajectory DI full away from the platform.
  2. ASDI down and slightly toward the platform.
The optimal ASDI angle against upair seems to be around 21 degrees off from full down (249 degrees when the platform is on your left side, 291 degrees when it's on the right) according to estimations done with ikneedata.com/calculator .


Since you don't get full vertical distance with this input, the % range at which you can still hit the platform is of course slightly reduced. With optimal angle, 53% should be the limit at which the slide-off can still happen against tipper upair. Note that as this ASDI is a sort of compromise between getting maximal vertical movement while reaching some amount of horizontal movement, it's sensitive to inaccuracy with the ASDI input. For example, if your ASDI input is around 30 degrees off of full down instead of 21, it'll stop working around 9% earlier than the optimal ASDI does.
 
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