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Double Battles! Time to discuss Charizard in doubles.

Swamp Sensei

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So...

Anyone think Charizard has a future in doubles or perhaps the gray area that is triples?
 

DarkLouis331

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I played a little bit yesterday with an Olimar against a Jigglypuff/Lucina. You definitely have to play more of a support/stock tank role or split the matchup into two separate 1v1's in doubles. You're good at breaking up cluster****s, and getting kills off of your partners' grabs. If you try to be too aggressive, you're only going to be combo food.

Overall, I do not have a good first impression about him in doubles.
 
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-LzR-

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Blast Burn is not as decent as I originally thought in doubles. I would advice against it.
 

RadianB

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Up throw is actually useful in doubles because if you've grabbed your opponent and their partner tries to break them free just up throw for a free get away. Whoever is under the up throw when it hits the ground will be damaged as well and it has more knockback then the actual up throw. >_< It kills at like 150% near the ledge.
 

Knee Smasher

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I do not think 4 or more-player matches are Charizard's specialty.
 

Rokuro777

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Side B in multiplayer is really good. Good players will be able to dodge just a random one thrown out, but a well placed one while your partner is comboing is really nice and gives good pressure.
 

Knee Smasher

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Flare Blitz in 2 VS. 2 is only really decent if Team Attack is off. Let's say you are on the left side of the stage, and the other three players are on the right side of the stage. Since Flare Blitz stops as soon as it hits a target, not only do you have to make sure that the closest character to you is someone other than your teammate in order for Flare Blitz to actually do anything good, but this move is only really rewarding if the opponent of yours who you hit happens to be at a high enough % to be KO'd by the Flare Blitz, and this is extremely difficult to ensure given how chaotic 2 VS. 2 battles are.

To make this clearer, say you are on the left side of the stage, and to the right side of the stage are your teammate, an opponent who has low %, and an opponent who has high %. Unless two or more of the aforementioned characters are very close to each other, Flare Blitz can only hit one of them: the one closest to Charizard. In the aforementioned situation, the character you'd want to hit is the opponent who has high %, but as anyone can roll and move around, it is very difficult to ensure that another character does not get between you and the character you want to hit.

There are two primary reasons why I think Charizard is not as good in 2 VS. 2 (and FFA, for that matter) as in 1 VS. 1:

1. Charizard relies heavily on Flamethrower, pummels and throws in order to rack up damage in 1 VS. 1. When Charizard uses the aforementioned moves in 1 VS. 1, Charizard's single opponent is more or less completely helpless, and since there is no one else to attack Charizard while it is using Flamethrower, pummels or throws, the fact that Charizard leaves itself completely open to being attacked by a third character while it is busy trapping and attacking one character is completely irrelevant in 1 VS. 1. However, the fact that Charizard leaves itself open in such a way so often is extremely exploitable in multiplayer matches, allowing it to be easily hit by even very slow attacks such as Falcon Punch and Ike's Fsmash.

2. One of the things that makes Charizard such an amazing character in 1 VS. 1 is its near-unparalleled edgeguarding game. A significant amount of the damage that Charizard typically deals in 1 VS. 1 comes from throwing the opponent off-stage, damaging them with Flamethrower while they are trying to recover, reading the way they get up from the ledge in order to launch them back off-stage (for example, hitting them with Fair out of their ledgejump, shieldgrabbing their ledge getup attack and throwing them back off, or throwing a Nair above the ledge to hit them back off the stage as they try to climb up), and things like that. But of course, all of this becomes completely irrelevant when there is another opponent on the stage ready to attack Charizard while it is edgeguarding.

The best characters in multi-player matches are those who don't need to leave themselves open to being attacked by a third character very often in order to deal significant damage to one character, which is why I think Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are among the best characters in 2 VS. 2, especially given how easily they can throw extremely powerful KO moves at the opponents while they are busy fighting Captain Falcon's/Ganondorf's teammate.

With that said though, Charizard + Falco seems to make a quite potent team, based on the testings of myself and another Smasher known as Kal1978. I don't know exactly why that is the case though.
 
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Real Smooth-Like

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I've heard that people Flare Blitz is bucketable/Ness' down b-able, is that true? Also Charizard has a kill throw. Always valuable in doubles.
 

ZephyrZ

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I've heard that people Flare Blitz is bucketable/Ness' down b-able, is that true? Also Charizard has a kill throw. Always valuable in doubles.
Only sort of.
There are two parts of the attack; the first part where Charizard flies forward, and the second part where it explodes on impact.
The explosion is a projectile, and it can be absorbed by PK Magnet. However, the first part of the attack can't. If Ness it his by Flare Blitz, PK Magnet will be canceled, and Ness wouldn't of absorbed anything. So, uh, yeah, it's not really a viable strategy, unfortunately.

I tested this myself using my Gamepad and Wii Remote. I held Down+B for Ness and Flare Blitzed him, and dealt full damage.
When he re-spawned, I did the same thing while he was invincible, and I heard the sound effect that plays when PK Magnet heals him.
 

RAzul

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Flare Blitz in 2 VS. 2 is only really decent if Team Attack is off. Let's say you are on the left side of the stage, and the other three players are on the right side of the stage. Since Flare Blitz stops as soon as it hits a target, not only do you have to make sure that the closest character to you is someone other than your teammate in order for Flare Blitz to actually do anything good, but this move is only really rewarding if the opponent of yours who you hit happens to be at a high enough % to be KO'd by the Flare Blitz, and this is extremely difficult to ensure given how chaotic 2 VS. 2 battles are.

To make this clearer, say you are on the left side of the stage, and to the right side of the stage are your teammate, an opponent who has low %, and an opponent who has high %. Unless two or more of the aforementioned characters are very close to each other, Flare Blitz can only hit one of them: the one closest to Charizard. In the aforementioned situation, the character you'd want to hit is the opponent who has high %, but as anyone can roll and move around, it is very difficult to ensure that another character does not get between you and the character you want to hit.

There are two primary reasons why I think Charizard is not as good in 2 VS. 2 (and FFA, for that matter) as in 1 VS. 1:

1. Charizard relies heavily on Flamethrower, pummels and throws in order to rack up damage in 1 VS. 1. When Charizard uses the aforementioned moves in 1 VS. 1, Charizard's single opponent is more or less completely helpless, and since there is no one else to attack Charizard while it is using Flamethrower, pummels or throws, the fact that Charizard leaves itself completely open to being attacked by a third character while it is busy trapping and attacking one character is completely irrelevant in 1 VS. 1. However, the fact that Charizard leaves itself open in such a way so often is extremely exploitable in multiplayer matches, allowing it to be easily hit by even very slow attacks such as Falcon Punch and Ike's Fsmash.

2. One of the things that makes Charizard such an amazing character in 1 VS. 1 is its near-unparalleled edgeguarding game. A significant amount of the damage that Charizard typically deals in 1 VS. 1 comes from throwing the opponent off-stage, damaging them with Flamethrower while they are trying to recover, reading the way they get up from the ledge in order to launch them back off-stage (for example, hitting them with Fair out of their ledgejump, shieldgrabbing their ledge getup attack and throwing them back off, or throwing a Nair above the ledge to hit them back off the stage as they try to climb up), and things like that. But of course, all of this becomes completely irrelevant when there is another opponent on the stage ready to attack Charizard while it is edgeguarding.

The best characters in multi-player matches are those who don't need to leave themselves open to being attacked by a third character very often in order to deal significant damage to one character, which is why I think Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are among the best characters in 2 VS. 2, especially given how easily they can throw extremely powerful KO moves at the opponents while they are busy fighting Captain Falcon's/Ganondorf's teammate.

With that said though, Charizard + Falco seems to make a quite potent team, based on the testings of myself and another Smasher known as Kal1978. I don't know exactly why that is the case though.
I appreciate your breakdown as to why your rationale on this matter is the way it is. I'm a proud Villager main and a very good one at that, in singles and doubles. I'm looking for a strong (not physically speaking per say) secondary character to fall back on. I will take much of what you said into consideration but I feel like you should check out this Charizard to see how nasty he can truly be.

 

RadianB

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I appreciate your breakdown as to why your rationale on this matter is the way it is. I'm a proud Villager main and a very good one at that, in singles and doubles. I'm looking for a strong (not physically speaking per say) secondary character to fall back on. I will take much of what you said into consideration but I feel like you should check out this Charizard to see how nasty he can truly be.

I thought the video you posted was going to be an amazing Charizard to back up your statement but that guy got 2 stocked twice. >_<
 

Knee Smasher

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I appreciate your breakdown as to why your rationale on this matter is the way it is. I'm a proud Villager main and a very good one at that, in singles and doubles. I'm looking for a strong (not physically speaking per say) secondary character to fall back on. I will take much of what you said into consideration but I feel like you should check out this Charizard to see how nasty he can truly be.

I already know how nasty Charizard can be in 1-on-1. This thread is about 2-on-2 though.
 

RAzul

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I already know how nasty Charizard can be in 1-on-1. This thread is about 2-on-2 though.
I apologize. I should have followed the thread. My bad. :crying:

I thought the video you posted was going to be an amazing Charizard to back up your statement but that guy got 2 stocked twice. >_<
Lol sorry man. Didn't mean to thwart your hopes. He's still dank though.
 
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Charey

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Oct 21, 2005
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190
I actually have done some Villager Charizard double matches. Doubles doesn't seem like a good place for Charizard but I play him so much better then anyone else that it's still my best option.

His tankyness sort of falls off because of how much damage you will take being dangerous and easy to combo take but you kill and rack up damage quickly making him sort of take on a glass cannon role. (This might also be because I take an aggressive style in most games anyway)

Villager seems like a good partner but I haven't done much of an analysis on who is or isn't a good partner. The person I have ended up playing doubles with just plays Villager most of the time.

Sadly, my testing has shown that Flare Blitz's explosion cannot be pocketed.

Here are some videos of a tournament set we did at my local weekly.
WARNING: LOUD FEEDBACK NEAR THE START OF THE FIRST VIDEO
 

Pokepal148

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Dec 7, 2014
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Charizard in my experience just really struggles with having multiple opponents to deal with.

Whoever charizard's partner is would need to be good at preventing the opposing players from ganging up on him.

He would also benefit from being able to help charizard by trapping an opponent in a combo for some fun with flare blitz.

Meta Knight could be a good one, he's got just enough mobility to come to Charizard when needed and alot of his attacks can trap his opponents for a while so that Charizard can go for the kill.

Plus Charizard has more then enough kill moves to cover for Meta Knight's lack thereof.

A well played Zard/Meta Knight combo could be deadly.
 
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