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"Don't play CPUs, you'll get into bad habits!"

Siruge

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 19, 2014
Messages
7
This has been discussed 100 times. The general consensus is you should play against human players that match, or exceed your skill level. You should also stick to level 1-4 CPUs and never level 9 because it will regress your skill level. Most people also say playing only CPUs will get you into bad habits.

What I want to discuss is: what bad habits? I think it's worth knowing what to look out for when someone is starting to learn competitive smash. I don't actually know myself, so maybe we can all input some bad training habits to watch for.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
CPU's do the same thing in every situation. it is always a pretty terrible option too. So if you only play to cover the CPU you will not learn how to deal with other options.

CPU training is really only good for keeping up tech skill and "shadowboxing". Which PP made a big post about.
 

Mera Mera

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Neenah, WI
It's also important to note that they don't really understand dash dancing very well, but end up making up for it by having inhuman reaction times (literally). There's this concept called burst range in fighters, meaning the range at which a character can put a hitbox before the opponent could possibly react. Burst range changes depending on position and understanding burst range is a large part of understanding how to get the "first hit" in any given conflict. Since CPUs don't really have a human reaction time, they kinda don't care about your burst range, and can react to anything no matter what. The only reason they get hit is they tend to choose unsafe options and/or just choose to get hit. As such CPUs in particular teach very bad neutral game habits, since they get hit by lots of things humans wouldn't simply because their option choices are poor or they randomly choose not to block, and since they aren't afraid of burst range, whereas humans are. It's a bad combination, since some of the worst options against humans work well against CPUs and some of the best options against humans don't work against CPUs.

Other things to look out for:
-CPUs sometimes have insane, unrealistic smash DI.
-CPUs perfect shield reflect more than even the best human players.
-CPUs tend to be predictable and/or terrible at recovering, teaching you to cover options that humans would either never choose, or would only choose as a mixup
 
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Brim

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
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Bitterbub
It's just important to remember when you're doing things against bots you wouldn't want to do this usually against human players - I think that's really all there is to it aside from technical training.
 

KayB

Smash Master
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Jan 2, 2013
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A good example is Fox's recovery. Fox can vary his recovery between Firefoxing at different angles and using his side-b or shortening it. These all require different methods of edgeguarding as they come at different angles and speeds. A CPU will often only go for one type of recovery, in this case firefox, while a good Fox will always make their recovery as difficult to cover as possible.
 

Zuzecha

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
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Oglala, South Dakota
I also does not give you any experience in any kind of "mind game" or pressure-inducing situations AKA HYPE.
It also keeps you from learning techniques with your character that are good in tournament play. Spacing is a good example, spacing is important to a lot of characters and not being able to do that properly can lead to bad habits in playing a character.
 

ECHOnce

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
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Bellevue, WA
CPU's do the same thing in every situation. it is always a pretty terrible option too. So if you only play to cover the CPU you will not learn how to deal with other options.

CPU training is really only good for keeping up tech skill and "shadowboxing". Which PP made a big post about.
What is this "shadowboxing"? Would you happen to have a link to PPMD's post?
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
What is this "shadowboxing"? Would you happen to have a link to PPMD's post?
I don't have a link to the post but the concept is bascially treating the computer as if they were a human opponent and acting out real game situations.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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CPU Fox or Falco in Project M 2.5 were terrible because they recover way too low and dumb stuff
 
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TheGravyTrain

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Apr 5, 2014
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*WARNING* Wall of Text Approaching *WARNING*

I have actually been having this debate in my head (its normal for me...) for quite some time now. To make just one competitively good CPU would take way too much work for it to be worth it. I have heard that the maker of the CPU AI's is actually just one person, so shoutouts to that guy (and the rest of the PMBR, cuz y'know, this mod is amazing.).

Back to CPU's though. Making CPU's actually have mixups, mindgames, and other human attributes would be so unrealistic (not that anyone was saying that...), however, I think with a little work they could still be a nice supplement to training with a human.

1) Tech Chasing
This is an acquired skill over many hours of practice, yet some characters rely on it heavily in bad matchups (like Falcon Spacies, Ganondorf Everybody, etc). I think this would be a relatively easy to implement, whether it be in the AI or another option in training mode (which is preferable in my mind). This is one of those things that seems to fit a CPU's purpose because it doesn't rely too much on option selects because there is only 8ish options (vs the many many different moves you can use to counter approaches, including non moves like WD Back and CC DSmash).

2) Combo Training
As said prior in this thread many times over, CPU's act very weird in the neutral game and it is where you pick up your bad habits from playing them. I actually do not know how difficult this one would be (or if it is already done, I can't read DI very well yet, except for throws), but to have the CPU's DI correctly/mix up their DI to keep you on your toes. Even if this is just for a couple of characters, this would be extremely beneficial. I remember a thread going up recently that was trying to catalog the correct DI for every move in the game. If they could use some of that info, it would go a long way to helping with practicing/testing comboes/chaingrabs by yourself (I got desperate and tried to see how long the SoPo chaingrab went using my foot for the opponent's DI, it didn't work very well). If this ends up too difficult/not worth the time (or in addition to *fingers crossed*), they could maybe add a DI indicator in training mode so you can get the feel for where they go with different DI.

3) Shield Pressure
This is the final request for CPU's. Another situation where the CPU would have less options so it would be easier to deal with. Have it as an option in Training mode. It would probably work like this: When on this mode, they would hold shield (probably mod it so the shield doesn't start shrinking until contact, or they don't hold shield until you get close), then they would try to escape their shield after the first hit, via spot dodge, roll, wavedash Up-B, jump+aerial, etc. This is good for seeing the timing of certain shield pressure and blocking escapes.

As you may have noticed, these are all 3 defensive tools a CPU has. Offensive and Neutral game introduces too many variables and frankly too much work. These defensive situations would be easier and more beneficial, making your alone practice more then just tech skill (that's mostly what I do now, until I get frustrated and move to that 25th secondary...). I am intrigued by the shadowboxing, so if anybody can scour for a link (I probably will eventually...), it will be much appreciated. From what I have read, it appears more beneficial once you have gotten good since you actually know the situations you need to get good at and how to address them. Thank you again PMBR, you truly have done amazing on this game, no matter how much people complain. I am not demanding these changes, these are merely suggestions that I think would selfishly help me and the other scrubs out there with small scenes/too lazy to get wifi working/too timid to go find people to play/etc. Again, thank you for reading this wall of text, thank you for making the game, thanking you for bearing with my over usage of parenthesis, and thanks you Smash community for being so awesome.

TL;DR I think CPU's could be added to with a bit of work to be made useful for some parts of solo practice.
 
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SphericalCrusher

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Since I don't always have someone around to play Smash with, I'll usually just try new strategies against lvl 9 bots. I usually switch up the bot I face (I pick, not random) and keep the same character, so I can learn to battle different ones. I admit though, I can down lvl 9 bots without dying and hardly taking any damage... they do become predictable. I don't see how it can make me any worse, but it's definitely not making me better anymore.
 
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