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Does the Smash Community Act Entitled?

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Raijinken

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@ Johnknight1 Johnknight1 while I mostly agree with your long long post, I will say ol Sakurai seems to have less of a ego/god complex than he did in the Brawl era. I say this because it seems he's actually *surprise shock* giving two bird poops about us competitive folk this go round what with the removal of scrappy mechanics that weighed Brawl down, an emphasis on a more balanced roster after the Meta Knight fiasco from Brawl, and of course having the top devs of Tekken fame helping you make the next entry of your long running crossover fighting series certainly counts for something ;)
In addition to that, he's expressed interest in long-term (or at least post-release) balance adjustments (though sifting through whining and valid complaints is difficult), and general shifts towards making the game actually appealing to everyone. Which, while past games were certainly appealing to everyone, Melee was often considered too technical (and with good reason, a game can be very competitive without being physically demanding to frame precision), and Brawl was considered too casual (for good reason, it incorporated tripping, random frame delays, and generally slow gameplay by comparison).

Smash 4, so far, is looking to strike a near-perfect balance, with mechanics being discovered or elaborated on at each unveiling of the demo (such as pivot canceling), fluid character animations that make it look and feel good to play, unique character mechanics across a larger part of the roster (instead of just the ICs being double, and Lucario getting stronger with damage, we now have Mac's KO punch, Luma, Robin's tomes, and probably more), customizations which give players room to tweak characters in ways that we can't even grasp yet, faster gameplay than Brawl, more punishable defensive moves than in Brawl, easier techniques than Melee, and (while purely aesthetic) numerous flat stages to bring some much-needed diversity to the darkness of competitive Melee stage picks.

It's going to be on both major Nintendo systems, and will almost undoubtedly become the must-own game for each system.
Besides Awakening and whatever Fire Emblem games we get on the U eventually are. :b:

In other words, it is currently apparent, from both the known and shown details of the game, as well as stated intents and other things we've not been able to get our hands on, that Nandai, NoA, and Sakurai are putting forth a very honest effort to make Smash 4 truly the best (over all) entry in the Smash Bros series. And if that works out as intended, then THEY will be entitled to every able Smash player giving their game a shot and seeing if it lives up to their individual expectations. For some, it won't. Plenty of people liked Smash 64, plenty of people liked Melee, plenty of people liked Brawl, and for that matter, plenty of people like them all and don't really consider one or the other to be an objectively better game.

Once that's all said and done, the major things to watch would be Nintendo's attitude towards Project M (the "light path" of supporting it as a devoted fan project that breathes new life into two old games, and the "dark path" of squelching the project as an infringement of intellectual property) and the modding community, Nintendo's attitude towards professional play of all Smash games (and mods), since all of them have their dedicated fanbase, and Nintendo's willingness to support a game that could well become their system-seller through to the next generation or later.
 

PixelPasta

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All I hear from you is "how dare you have a bias."
If this is the case, then clearly I've wasted my time here. You're ignoring everything I said.

This is my reaction to your statement:

You have bias, Sakurai has bias, I have bias.
Why are you evading the points I brought up? You're not addressing any of my rebuttals, rather, you are shrugging them off with an internet gif. You're not really helping your case.

Sorry, but I'm ENTITLED to my opinion.
Of course you are! I never said you weren't. I really hope you didn't interpret anything I said as an attempt to diminish your right to your own opinions.
You are definitely entitled to your own opinion, but you are also obliged, to some degree, to openly consider other people's views. Instantly dismissing somebody else's arguments by saying 'I'm entitled to my opinion' isn't doing anything for your case, rather, it comes across as being evasive.

And if you want backing for it, watch this...
(stop at 16:20)
How is this 'backing' for anything you said?
I wasn't denying the fact that a lot of the competitive players disliked Brawl. I know that, and I also understand why they feel that way.
But that's not what we're talking about. That video does not prove that Sakurai 'hates' the competitive fanbase, or that he doesn't care about his fans. That is sort of where I wanted proof for.

You see where I'm right.
No, I don't. A video of people expressing their opinions - not facts, mind you - does not make you 'right'.
You have to view this situation objectively! I want quotes, videos, anything that would indicate to me that Sakurai 'ragged on the Melee players', or 'has a God Complex'.

And yes, Sakurai clearly made Brawl to be played competitively, which is ironic, because Brawl is just as competitive as Melee (except in a very different way), and now Sakurai dislikes Brawl's competitive style.
I'm legitimately curious, how do you know that Sakurai now dislikes Brawl's competitive side? Is there any quotes you can show me, or is it just an assumption you've made?

Instead of making a game to not be competitive, why not just make a game to be fun for everyone=???

That worked for 64 and Melee and those game's development pretty well.
You're missing my point. This isn't about Brawl vs. Melee.
What I'm wondering is how you came to the conclusion that Masahiro Sakurai hates the competitive community, actively tried to drive them away from Brawl, and 'doesn't care' about his fans. And you've given me nothing in favor of your view besides more of this 'casual vs competitive' rubbish.
 
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Johnknight1

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If you can't do anything about it, don't whine. If you can do something about it but refuse to do so, don't whine. If you can do something about it or can convince someone to do something about it, voice your complaint appropriately. Not that hard.
So if you can't do something about it, don't complain=???

Well, let me introduce you to what that leads to...

...Genocide, Murder, ****, Slavery, Racism, Sexism, Segregation, Abuse, Death Camps, Forced Abortions, Mass Murder, Apartheid, Enslavement, Destruction, Fear, Racial Elimination, Forced Labor Camps, Abuse against Women, Child Abuse, War.

Sorry, but complaining or whining more would have stopped a lot of these crappy things I just mentioned.

Or as I like to call these things...

..."the history of mankind".

Out of all the things that I read on this thread...

...this one concerns me the most because Smash doesn't matter compared to this issue.

Complaining can be a very great thing.

Heck, here's possibly the most historic speech that is basically "whining" as you say, especially if it came 10 years earlier where you couldn't do anything to change it.
 
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PixelPasta

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So if you can't do something about it, don't complain=???

Well, let me introduce you to what that leads to...

...Genocide, Murder, ****, Slavery, Racism, Sexism, Segregation, Abuse, Death Camps, Forced Abortions, Mass Murder, Apartheid, Enslavement, Destruction, Fear, Racial Elimination, Forced Labor Camps, Abuse against Women, Child Abuse, War.

Sorry, but complaining or whining more would have stopped a lot of these crappy things I just mentioned.

Or as I like to call these things...

..."the history of mankind".

Out of all the things that I read on this thread...

...this one concerns me the most because it goes beyond just Smash.
I agree.

Even if on an individual level, you can't do anything about it, it's still worth voicing dissatisfaction about. Awareness can often be enough to make some degree of change.
 

Nielicus

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Maybe, but hey, this **** ain't free lol. We're paying money for Smash so we have the right to be entitled. But what people don't realize is that all of their wishes can't be answered just because they want them
 

Johnknight1

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I agree.

Even if on an individual level, you can't do anything about it, it's still worth voicing dissatisfaction about. Awareness can often be enough to make some degree of change.
Exactly.

I complain about your complaining being "wrong", you complain about my complaining being "wrong", and it's all good.

It's more accurately described as "constructive criticism", but alas, the point remains.


===

Back on subject, if we pay for it, we have a right to complain about issues pre- and post-release, especially in the digital gaming era where patches can easily come out to fix issues.

There's no reason things like the Yoshi's Story frame drops in Melee when hitting a Shy Guy or Big Blue's various frame drop issues should be in Smash 4 (especially Smash WiiU) when there aren't tons of items when patching is a thing.

We want to get the maximum bang for our buck. It's the very nature of commercialism and consumerism, and it is a great thing.
 
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Nat Perry

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So if you can't do something about it, don't complain=???

Well, let me introduce you to what that leads to...

...Genocide, Murder, ****, Slavery, Racism, Sexism, Segregation, Abuse, Death Camps, Forced Abortions, Mass Murder, Apartheid, Enslavement, Destruction, Fear, Racial Elimination, Forced Labor Camps, Abuse against Women, Child Abuse, War.

Sorry, but complaining or whining more would have stopped a lot of these crappy things I just mentioned.

Or as I like to call these things...

..."the history of mankind".

Out of all the things that I read on this thread...

...this one concerns me the most because Smash doesn't matter compared to this issue.

Complaining can be a very great thing.

Heck, here's possibly the most historic speech that is basically "whining" as you say, especially if it came 10 years earlier where you couldn't do anything to change it.
I didn't mean it like that...

Obviously they could something about all that. Because they did.

Complaining is good. Whining is bad. That was pretty clearly established in my prior posts.

Way to take things out of context and misrepresent my words...
 
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Johnknight1

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No, he is.
He is largely responsible for making Smash 64, Brawl, and of course, Melee too.
Sure, the Smash community gives him the money and keeps the franchise alive, but Sakurai and his team do the work.
No, WE ARE!

We are the people that bought the games, and thus we are the reason its' sequels exist.

While yes, without him, Smash wouldn't exist. However, without the numerous other Smash developers and/or the millions of smash fans, Smash wouldn't exist equally as much.
Again with this exaggeration. He is in control over the games, and thus has a sense of authority in that respect. But that doesn't mean he has a God complex; it's ridiculous to jump to such a conclusion.
If you want a REAL example for Smash 4 via a friend of mine who's a game developer and a SWF staff member in @ Thirdkoopa Thirdkoopa Sakurai actually FIRED PEOPLE for them telling him that the Subspace Emissary is a bad idea for Smash 4!!! Sakurai REFUSED to hear it any other way.

It wasn't until Bamco came along that said idea was shot down.

Also at the end of Brawl's development (the last year or so) he went full God mode. He messed with the art and visuals when he has no experience with that. He went all in on the SSE and ignored everything else, which is why he was so detached from game balancing.

Listen, I'm not saying Sakurai is bad for Smash, but if he's not in check, he'll make dumb stuff like the SSE be what a Smash game revolves around. This happened when over 60% of Brawl's development time, focus, money, and effort went into. A lot of the SSE went unfinished due to Brawl going over budget on that giant abomination.
And he most definitely cares about his fans; there is lots of evidence towards that.
I find myself doubting that he cares too much for competitive fans. I'm not saying he hates them, only that he sees them as not too relevant.

I think that's what the Bamco team is there for. Their Soul Caliber and Tekken teams constantly show that they care for competitive players, which is a big reason why Tekken is the best-selling fighting game franchise of all-time, and Soul is also one of the best-selling fighting game franchises ever as well.
Heck, they are even listening to the feedback from E3. These examples, and more, just go to show that he is trying to please longtime fans and new players alike.
Eh, that's more of a team effort, but alas, he is a part of it. I will give him credit for listening, although he's pretty late. Still, Nintendo as a whole seems to listen with a filter.

While sure, now it appears as though Sakurai is not entirely anti-competitive smashers, but his anti-competitive bias probably still exists IMO. I could be wrong though. I would prefer I am, actually.
It is impossible to cater to every type of smasher,
It's not that he didn't cater to competitive smashers, it's that he did things in the past purposefully to exclude them.

I'm open to being proven wrong in the present and future, but I need to "find" proof of it directly from Sakurai.
but he is doing what he can to make the most fun smash experience yet, and I think he deserves at least a little respect for that.
I think the Melee and Brawl competitive community deserve at least a little respect for being fans of Smash despite the series creator and the company that makes those games undermining them numerous times in the last decade.
Sorry, what? I don't understand what you mean.
I'm saying disagreeing is a good thing, because the purpose of a forum is communicating our opinions. There's an inflow and outflow of our opinions.
 
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PixelPasta

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No, WE ARE!

We are the people that bought the games, and thus we are the reason its' sequels exist.
That's a good point. I didn't think of it that way!

If you want a REAL example for Smash 4 via a friend of mine who's a game developer and a SWF staff member in @ Thirdkoopa Thirdkoopa Sakurai actually FIRED PEOPLE for them telling him that the Subspace Emissary is a bad idea for Smash 4!!! Sakurai REFUSED to hear it any other way.
Is this really true though? How do I know this is legitimate? This sounds like your average 'friend of a friend' story.... plus I did a search and haven't heard anything like this elsewhere.

Also at the end of Brawl's development (the last year or so) he went full God mode. He messed with the art and visuals when he has no experience with that. He went all in on the SSE and ignored everything else, which is why he was so detached from game balancing.
Really? I wasn't aware of this. Again, I'd like some sources though.

Listen, I'm not saying Sakurai is bad for Smash, but if he's not in check, he'll make dumb stuff like the SSE be what a Smash game revolves around. This happened when over 60% of Brawl's development time, focus, money, and effort went into. A lot of the SSE went unfinished due to Brawl going over budget on that giant abomination.
I'll agree with you here. The Subspace Emissary was one of Sakurai's most questionable decisions. The time it took to develop that could have been better spent.

I find myself doubting that he cares too much for competitive fans. I'm not saying he hates them, only that he sees them as not too relevant.
Well, you did say that he hates them. In fact, you used 'hate' a lot.
I do hear you, though: I can understand why it might feel like he doesn't care. But, I have faith that he is listening - or at least, more than he did before. He is attempting to please the competitive fans much more now: for example, by trying to find a good balance in terms of speed, and by addressing some of their complaints such as tripping. And lets not forget the tournaments.

Eh, that's more of a team effort, but alas, he is a part of it. I will give him credit for listening, although he's pretty late. Still, Nintendo as a whole seems to listen with a filter.
That may be true, but like I said, it's hard to cater towards everybody's individual gaming agendas, especially for a big corporation like Nintendo.

While sure, now it appears as though Sakurai is not entirely anti-competitive smashers, but his anti-competitive bias probably still exists IMO. I could be wrong though. I would prefer I am, actually.
I don't think it is anti-competitive bias so much as it is pro-casual bias. Sakurai and his team are making an huge effort to be 'welcoming' to everyone, casual players in particular. Because of this, it may seem like they are ignoring competitive players. At least, that's the way I see it.

It's not that he didn't cater to competitive smashers, it's that he did things in the past purposefully to exclude them.
That's a fair point.

I think the Melee and Brawl competitive community deserve at least a little respect for being fans of Smash despite the series creator and the company that makes those games undermining them numerous times in the last decade.
They definitely deserve respect - they have done so much for this community! They brought us so close. This sire wouldn't even exist without their passion.
However, I think both the developers and the competitive fans deserve equal respect, as both have done brilliant things regarding this game.

I'm saying disagreeing is a good thing, because the purpose of a forum is communicating our opinions. There's an inflow and outflow of our opinions.
You're absolutely right. It's good to disagree because it exposes us to other points of views, that may be worth considering.


Well, I understand your point of view a lot more because of this post, so thank you.
I still don't think it's good to treat him as the bad guy though, or 'point fingers' at him. He is only the developer after all, so its not fair to blame him for everything you don't like.
This community could do with a lot less finger-pointing.
 
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Thirdkoopa

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frankly, the community could do a lot less on name dropping, especially with Sakurai. It's Sakurai - Yes, a director, but a director in a board of games that average at least 180~ names working on them and 4-6~ producers

Did I say average? I mean that's the lowest number. Funny how that works.
 

Moon Monkey

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I think we are confusing the yearning for exciting information, with entitlement.
 

micstar615

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It's not just the smash community that can be like this. It's almost every fanbase of anything really.

It's just a natural part of getting committed to a hobby (or a person), it becomes a part of you, and because of that you become entitled to it in your own perspective because it represents a part of you.

It can be really insufferable sometimes though, especially when you want to enjoy something and then there's hordes of others in the fanbase that constantly complain that it isn't the way "they" wanted it, despite you being happy for what it is. It just becomes a loud noise that you get tired of, but again every fanbase has this, and in many occasions it's warranted (wanting smash to be competitive is fair) other times it isn't ("These Pokemon don't deserve to have mega evolutions why didn't my favorite get one??!!??")
 

MasterOfKnees

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I really only have a problem with the people that are refusing to buy the games if they don't include a specific playable character. Yes, your money is yours to use as you wish, but if you enjoyed the rest of the series without having Ridley as a character, if you enjoyed Brawl without Mewtwo, then why is it suddenly that the line is drawn now? Nobody has taken away the game and its core aspects. I can understand if one doesn't really fancy the gameplay, that's fine because that's actually a major thing, but I do have a problem when people say they don't want to buy the games because of such a trivial thing as the lack of one character, out of at least 45+ characters that one character wouldn't be a game changer all alone, I don't see how Mewtwo's absence in Brawl made a Mario vs Bowser battle any worse. Despite the lack of a character there will still be so much new content, new gameplay, (presumably) better online functionality, a new metagame, new ways to play old characters, if those things aren't at least worth skipping over a fancy meal for then you never truly liked the games enough that King K. Rool would save them for you anyways.

Every day I'm plappering about how much I want Ridley in these games, but you know what? I'm still going to buy both games even if he's only a stage hazard, because I've loved every Smash installment without him, and you can be damn sure I'll love these games too regardless, after all I still have Meta Knight, Samus, Ike, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Mario, Falco, Kirby, Yoshi, Bowser, and all the other characters I love playing. Sure I'll enjoy it even more if he is in, but it's not like anything will be taken away from me.

Still, I wouldn't call the Smash community the most entitled one, that's without a shimmer of doubt the WoW community, people will threaten to quit if a hair on their in-game model's eyebrow is touched.
 
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LancerStaff

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And its the causals that continually down talk us. Every fighting game has a hardcore scene. Get over it.
And there's's a pretty significant portion of the "hardcore" side that spreads and allows elitism and general scrubby-ness. It's honestly no wonder people hate us.

I see you feel entitled to act like a holier-than-thou jerk.

Also, you are the person I am entitled to laugh at the most.

You still owe me a month of saying "Johnknight1 is better than me" after that Lucina sig bet.

And yes, I am ENTITLED to that.
Whenever you see a "hardcore" player outside of Smashboards here, 9/10 times he's an elitist. I'm just pointing out that the "hardcore" community is doing very little to fix it's bad image, and this is something I'd like to see. I'm tired of getting lumped with the elitism and entitled-ness when I play to win on Temple or do something as simple as looping arrows to hit people.

And I asked you if the bet could of been only a week, since we didn't really agree to anything and that Sakurai said himself that Lucina was very nearly a costume. You never replied. Go ahead and check our conversation and see for yourself.
 

Senario

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And there's's a pretty significant portion of the "hardcore" side that spreads and allows elitism and general scrubby-ness. It's honestly no wonder people hate us.



Whenever you see a "hardcore" player outside of Smashboards here, 9/10 times he's an elitist. I'm just pointing out that the "hardcore" community is doing very little to fix it's bad image, and this is something I'd like to see. I'm tired of getting lumped with the elitism and entitled-ness when I play to win on Temple or do something as simple as looping arrows to hit people.

And I asked you if the bet could of been only a week, since we didn't really agree to anything and that Sakurai said himself that Lucina was very nearly a costume. You never replied. Go ahead and check our conversation and see for yourself.
I can make up statistics too guys!

Ahem, 9 times out of 10 whenever you are a competitive player on smashboards people hate on you no matter how well or civil you may or may not present any argument.
 
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LancerStaff

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I can make up statistics too guys!

Ahem, 9 times out of 10 whenever you are a competitive player on smashboards people hate on you no matter how well or civil you may or may not present any argument.
So you think the idea that competitive players are elitist got around even though the ratio is supposedly in the favor of being nice? Don't think so. People will only think we're jerks is if a sizable portion that interact with more casual players actually are jerks.
 

BindingBlade

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As far as the competitive players, I've always collected that the majority of Smashboarders are competitive players, however not in the sense of tournaments but playing for skill (stocks vs. timed, no items vs. items, Final Destination vs. Distant Planet).
 

Starphoenix

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Oh my word. We are so done here. I can tell the trajectory this thread is going.

If anyone wants to continue this discussion take it to the Social thread.
 
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