Does the Extender have legitimate use?

[Theftz22]

As the extender stays out for the same amount of time as the regular grab, there seems to be no theoretical disadvantage of the extender vs the regular grab. The only disadvantage is the practical possibility of mistiming A or Z and missing the grab. The timing however, is well within the bounds of reasonable tech skill.

The extender offers several concrete advantages over the regular grab including:

1. Extended horizontal and vertical grab range
2. Increased speed in reaching any given distance (that is, since the extender takes only as long as the regular grab, it reaches comparable distances quicker than the regular grab would have)

One objection to the extender is that a charge shot is preferable to the extender given the choice between the two between stocks. I have two things to say about this. First of all, it's a false dilemma. One can easily practice getting the extender out of a grapple recovery or a regular grab. Secondly, there may be some matchups where the extender is more valuable than the charge shot. Obviously take a match up like puff, where grab is extremely risky, puff is always in the air, and charge shot is really valuable, yes charge shot is more important. But I think there might be some matchups where the extender can be really useful. Heavily ground-based zoning characters are very susceptible I think. Marth's that like to play a ground-based, DD campy style for example could easily be caught with the extender. Some sheiks and falcons play the MU the same way. I also think that platform campers can probably be caught off guard by the threat of a grab from below. For example consider a sheik camping DL platforms, it might be a good idea to try to catch them with extender when they try to charge needles. I think in general the extender could be a good mix-up in combating campy gameplay.

In the end, finding a balanced role for uses of the extender (in addition to, that is, regular uses of grab with the extender) is something that can only come with trial and experience, but I think it's a very underexplored area of samus's metagame. Furthermore, the extender is strictly superior to the regular grab in the theoretical sense (that is, ignoring mistakes with mistiming pressing A or Z), and samus can use any slight advantage she can eke out her game. For these reasons, I'm going to be exploring the extender further for a while. But I want to know what you guys think of the extender. Is it underexplored? Do its advantages outweigh the possibility of mistiming?

 

[BBOY15]

I think there's some potential. What about the fact that the extender can be used to techchase? After throwing someone down, you can use the homing grapple to get them no matter which way they roll. If they do a get-up attack and you anticipate this, you can wavedash away to avoid it and then grab them to keep the combo going. I learned that from this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKbFwgUMrxY . If we could figure out some way to incorporate it once in a while, it could be quite beneficial as it would give the opponent more to think about. The more moves we have that the opponent has to think about, the less they'll be able to figure us out.

 

[Litt]

As the extender stays out for the same amount of time as the regular grab, there seems to be no theoretical disadvantage of the extender vs the regular grab. The only disadvantage is the practical possibility of mistiming A or Z and missing the grab. The timing however, is well within the bounds of reasonable tech skill.

The extender offers several concrete advantages over the regular grab including:

1. Extended horizontal and vertical grab range
2. Increased speed in reaching any given distance (that is, since the extender takes only as long as the regular grab, it reaches comparable distances quicker than the regular grab would have)

One objection to the extender is that a charge shot is preferable to the extender given the choice between the two between stocks. I have two things to say about this. First of all, it's a false dilemma. One can easily practice getting the extender out of a grapple recovery or a regular grab. Secondly, there may be some matchups where the extender is more valuable than the charge shot. Obviously take a match up like puff, where grab is extremely risky, puff is always in the air, and charge shot is really valuable, yes charge shot is more important. But I think there might be some matchups where the extender can be really useful. Heavily ground-based zoning characters are very susceptible I think. Marth's that like to play a ground-based, DD campy style for example could easily be caught with the extender. Some sheiks and falcons play the MU the same way. I also think that platform campers can probably be caught off guard by the threat of a grab from below. For example consider a sheik camping DL platforms, it might be a good idea to try to catch them with extender when they try to charge needles. I think in general the extender could be a good mix-up in combating campy gameplay.

In the end, finding a balanced role for uses of the extender (in addition to, that is, regular uses of grab with the extender) is something that can only come with trial and experience, but I think it's a very underexplored area of samus's metagame. Furthermore, the extender is strictly superior to the regular grab in the theoretical sense (that is, ignoring mistakes with mistiming pressing A or Z), and samus can use any slight advantage she can eke out her game. For these reasons, I'm going to be exploring the extender further for a while. But I want to know what you guys think of the extender. Is it underexplored? Do its advantages outweigh the possibility of mistiming?

I dont think it is under explored at all, we all know hows its used, how to take it out, and the benefits and cons, the reason extendur isnt used much, is the same reason you dont see many samus's grabbing, ITS A BIG COMMITMENT. The question is not to charge shot or to extendur, the question is the MU, and the lead you have if any. The only MUs i have personally found the extendur useful, is for Marth, ICs, and Ganon. As soon as marth uses is double jump, you can just toss out the extendur and wait for him to come back to the ground, and see if it forces any airdodge, up b, or other moves you can try to evoke later, or well you just get a free grab. As for ICs, i like platform camping them with missiles, and occatioanlly throwing out the jump canceled homing extendur to seperate nana, when they really are not expecting it. As for ganon, that huge Mofo, he throws out a short hop fair, and I just wd back into homing extendur for a free grab :/. Aside from those instances, there are very few viable uses for the extendur, mainly because you also have to press A to grab on top of getting everything else right, and you cant put it away without throwing away your stock, once your opponent knows its out, they can spot dodge and roll to infinity the second they see you trying to grab... dead topic, just because you are new, dont try to reinvent the wheel, that wheel has long been rolling

 

[343]

Eh, @SUNG475 and @Pluplue both seem to think extender is strictly better than normal grab; Theftz's reasons seem pretty solid to me. They can already spotdodge your grab anyway; why would an extender be any easier to spotdodge??

 

[Theftz22]

Yes if anything rolling and spotdodging are easier to punish with extender: the roll is less likely to leave the range of the extender first of all, and secondly you can use the homing method and press Z after they roll or spot dodge to catch them after it.

I think we need a little more exploration of the actual mechanics of the extender too. I was experimenting a bit today and contrary to my previous beliefs, the window at which you can time the pressing of A or Z seems pretty lenient. I was mashing Z significantly before the tip of the extender reached the opponent and it was still grabbing. Someone should test how many frames of leniency we have here.

It's interesting what you say about Plup and Sung. If that's so, I wonder why plup isn't using it as standard in his game. His recovery is extremely grapple-heavy and he would definitely have many chances to get it during the regular course of a stock.

Barbie, you sound pretty condescending. I've probably been playing this game longer than you have. Don't assume just because I haven't posted in the samus forums for a while that I'm new. Also, I'm not suggesting that this will revolutionize samus' game or something. I just think it deserves a bit more exploration and I don't see any real reasons to prefer the regular grab.

 

[Litt]

Yes if anything rolling and spotdodging are easier to punish with extender: the roll is less likely to leave the range of the extender first of all, and secondly you can use the homing method and press Z after they roll or spot dodge to catch them after it.

I think we need a little more exploration of the actual mechanics of the extender too. I was experimenting a bit today and contrary to my previous beliefs, the window at which you can time the pressing of A or Z seems pretty lenient. I was mashing Z significantly before the tip of the extender reached the opponent and it was still grabbing. Someone should test how many frames of leniency we have here.

It's interesting what you say about Plup and Sung. If that's so, I wonder why plup isn't using it as standard in his game. His recovery is extremely grapple-heavy and he would definitely have many chances to get it during the regular course of a stock.

Barbie, you sound pretty condescending. I've probably been playing this game longer than you have. Don't assume just because I haven't posted in the samus forums for a while that I'm new. Also, I'm not suggesting that this will revolutionize samus' game or something. I just think it deserves a bit more exploration and I don't see any real reasons to prefer the regular grab.

You saying exploration is to be made is vague and a waste of time, expand on how you see the extendur being using any more viable or efficiently than you previously stated that has already been summed up in the last 14 years of smash. Like cool, if the extendur is statistically better to have on you at all times show me the numbers, but until you or anyone else can figure those out and show that its actually worth it to take out... we are still at the same place as we are right now. No, sorry I do not mean to be condescending, but saying that its unexplored is very naive to put it lightly, people have been playing around with the extendur since 2001, and its not from lack of trying that its widespread use didnt come into fruition, its a gimmick, and you can mold that gimmick to your play style for those who dont know it too well, but good players understand the flaws of the homing and grab boxes just as well as we do, and they arent gong to get caught by those shenanigans easily, also samus really doesnt get much off grabs against most of the cast, and those cast members samus can actually start a good combo off from a grab, get a free knee into knee or fully charged up smash if you missed that easily avoidable grab.

 

[Theftz22]

Well Barbie to tell you the truth I don't know for sure what specific situations the extender can help out in (in addition to the regular uses of grab). I tried to suggest a few in my OP but they're just speculations. That knowledge will come from incorporating it into your regular arsenal and trial and error. As to the numbers, well I just watched that video that BBoy posted and it was very good. It had the frame data I was looking for. It confirms that extender is theoretically strictly superior to regular grab:

1. Both last a total of 94 frames (from stand)
2. Extender has about 3 times the range of normal grab
3. The regular grab has 19 active grab frames (on frames 18-37), the extender has 74 active grab frames (on frames 18-94)

The video says that the extender has three separate windows in which you can press A or Z. If you press it at any time in those windows it will grab for all of those frames. Those windows are frames 18-41,42-57, and 58-94. I suppose that means that you basically choose which window you want an active grab box in, and then you cannot activate it again in any other window. I think it would be really useful to have a GIF here to illustrate this so you could see what the extender looks like in each of those windows.

 

[Litt]

Well Barbie to tell you the truth I don't know for sure what specific situations the extender can help out in (in addition to the regular uses of grab). I tried to suggest a few in my OP but they're just speculations. That knowledge will come from incorporating it into your regular arsenal and trial and error. As to the numbers, well I just watched that video that BBoy posted and it was very good. It had the frame data I was looking for. It confirms that extender is theoretically strictly superior to regular grab:

1. Both last a total of 94 frames (from stand)
2. Extender has about 3 times the range of normal grab
3. The regular grab has 19 active grab frames (on frames 18-37), the extender has 74 active grab frames (on frames 18-94)

The video says that the extender has three separate windows in which you can press A or Z. If you press it at any time in those windows it will grab for all of those frames. Those windows are frames 18-41,42-57, and 58-94. I suppose that means that you basically choose which window you want an active grab box in, and then you cannot activate it again in any other window. I think it would be really useful to have a GIF here to illustrate this so you could see what the extender looks like in each of those windows.

Not engaging you in this matter, you want to see what it looks like, go into debug mode, set the control of the game to Debug instead of master, then you can look at the active hitboxes on moves and grabs, you are adamant about this, so good luck in your quest and for others out there than believe the extender has many other uses, i added the few I had found over the years above, so yeah, peace out

 

[ycz12]

I find that wavedash back > Extender when your opponent is on the ledge can be good once in a while. Many opponents will ledgejump to try and punish and get grabbed like a dummy.

I'll also randomly throw it out when the opponent is about half-stage away and on a different platform than me. Barbie already mentioned something similar vs. ICs, but it'll also work against some other characters.

I think a hidden benefit the Extender has is that it makes your grabs harder to punish hard. Like, against Fox for instance, if you whiff a grab from half stage away on FD, for whatever reason, he can't just run up and up-smash you like he could normally; the hardest thing he can land is something like dash double jump falling u-air, which is (a) probably not something a Fox player will think of, and (b) takes long enough that they might not even make it in time.

Of course, it is true that a lot of these tricks will not work against more experienced players, who will either know how to punish correctly or be content with lasering you for 15%. But I think they're worth trying at least once or twice per set; if your opponent punishes, well, you know not to try those shenanigans again, but if they don't know what to do you can get a ton of mileage off them.

 

[Mervis]

I think I heard Plup mention somewhere that the extender makes your dash grab less effective. I've toyed around with the extender, and I can't see how it really worsens either grab, but most top-tier Samus mains don't mess around with it. Ycz is the only top level Samus main that I can think of that uses it regularly. All in all though I think the extender is very inline with Samus' playstyle. An unusual and unaccounted option can sometimes be the best one.

 

[Theftz22]

IDK if Plup said that. I do know he has said this on the extender in his interview with team liquid: "Extender is strictly better than normal grab but you have to remember to activate it at the right times. Obviously it's DEVASTATING to try and grab someone and just have it go through them because you forgot you had extender on."

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/smash-bros/476966-ssbm-pre-apex-interviews

As to it making dash grab less effective, I tested and actually found that to be true. The very closest part to samus' hand of the grapple does not grab with the extender when you dash grab. Weird. It also means you can't go the air grab with samus' hand from the extended dash grab. This is a very uncommon situation though, and I still think the benefits outweigh this small drawback.

 

[343]

@ T Theftz22 hee hee I had to ask Plup some Samus questions ofc

 

[cole_ubermensch]

how about following the player with the extender? i try to use it when they are off stage and grab them but idk if it works. can i get confirmation on that?

 

[GoomySmash]

how about following the player with the extender? i try to use it when they are off stage and grab them but idk if it works. can i get confirmation on that?

Extender doesn't work in the air.
The very beginning or (non extender) grapple can grab people in the air but not the tip of the grapple

Basically you have a few options with extender.

1.) Hold L to make it home from the very beginning
2.) Don't hold L to make it go straight from the beginning
3.) Hold L somewhere in the middle of the grapple animation so it goes straight and then starts homing.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

you can summarize this discussion as agreeing that the extender is beneficial but dependent on its practicality. if you can use it then there's no disadvantage for you. same goes for normal grabbing or the swd. failing to get the extender out and get a grab with it 80+% of the time does not count as using it, that's just attempting it.

 

[Corigames]

I played on M2K's stream the other day and got multiple tech chases on his Sheik with extender. You might be able to find the vod on his channel.

Take that info how you wish.

http://www.twitch.tv/mew2king/v/3931193
Cut to around 55:20 for the Sheik fights where I extender him a bunch. I get him a lot on PS.

Also, since it was brought up: cut to around 2:11:00 to see SWD and other gimmicks being used against him

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I played on M2K's stream the other day and got multiple tech chases on his Sheik with extender. You might be able to find the vod on his channel.

Take that info how you wish.

http://www.twitch.tv/mew2king/v/3931193
Cut to around 55:20 for the Sheik fights where I extender him a bunch. I get him a lot on PS.

Also, since it was brought up: cut to around 2:11:00 to see SWD and other gimmicks being used against him

ROFL

**** you got good corigames!