Does Rage Invalidate Skilled Lightweight Mains?

[Sixell]

Some characters in particular MUs seem to struggle with finishing stocks in general, but I might even go as far as to say that to an extent, the rage mechanic invalidates skilled gameplay when it comes to certain characters.

Example

Spoiler

For instance, Mr. Game and Watch is generally best played with a bait-and-punish playstyle. This is because he struggles to approach safely. Most if not all of his moves are unsafe on shield and he has very short grab range. However, to compensate he has a good combo game and an amazing offstage game. Despite his perks, Game and Watch, like many lightweight and/or damage-racking characters have is that they essentially feed rage to other characters. What this means is that characters like Game and Watch have to struggle to get the damage in and play while making very few errors. This is not good because this character has kill confirms at low-mid percents but loses momentum once the opponent is at rage percents. Several Game and Watch mains have at the very least wanted a kill throw to actually reward the character at high percents rather than using laggy hard-read-dependent attacks. Other characters surely need safer moves and kill options too, but this is not the place to discuss that in detail. The idea is that rage can really skew several MUs for some characters despite playing skillfully.

To keep this discussion from derailing, we should focus on the some of the lightest characters in the game based on this table. Surely, fall speed matters to an extent, but I want this conversation to be focused on rage and its relation to light characters.

At lower or mid percents, lightweight characters generally do have some advantages such as being able to DI out of combos easier. When at high percents, damage output and the ability to kill safely can become a problem.

For now, we can discuss characters considered to be "featherweight" and "balloonweight." Correct me if I miss some things or add something that shouldn't be there.

Lightweight Characters and Advantages Despite Rage

Spoiler

- extremely situational kill moves, decent recovery

- extremely safe moves, various reliable kill setups, great edgeguarding options, fast-faller, speedy movement, safe recovery

- fast-faller, decent kill setups, decent recovery

- super armor, amazing KO power on several moves, speedy movement

- good kill setups, ranged attacks/grab, good edgeguarding options, speedy movement, good recovery

- great edgeguarding options, great boost grab range, decent kill setups, fast-faller, speedy movement, good recovery

- good kill setups, fast faller, speedy movement, decent recovery

- read/hard-read-dependent kill moves, good grab range, speedy movement, good recovery

- ranged attacks, kill throw, disjointed attacks

- good kill setups, extremely safe when with Luma, good KO power

- good kill setups, great boost grab range, great edgeguarding options, good recovery

- extremely situational or hard-read-dependent kill moves, amazing edgeguarding options, safe recovery with invincibility frames, armor on U-smash

- situational or hard-read-dependent kill moves, decent edgeguarding options, shadow ball, kill throw

- relatively safe aerials, hard-read-dependent kill moves, amazing edgeguarding options

Now for a followup question: Should the rage mechanic (excluding aura) be removed so that skill is more highly rewarded?

Removing rage does affect characters who may be dependent on it for kills, so compensatory buffs would be expected so that kills would overall be more reliable for those who need it. But again, let's focus on what rage already does to the meta. I'm very interested in the discussion that this could bring about.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, not really. 'Bout the only thing keeping Sheik in check, actually.

The thing is that the game was built with rage in mind. You can't just turn it off without basically breaking the game. Everybody, and I mean everybody makes some use of rage. Without it, everybody takes forever to finish stocks. Try fighting the CPU in training and then a real match and see how much faster it is with it on.

Can't just shrink the blastzones either. Again, characters are designed around the size we have now. Characters with great recoveries lose a good deal of their durability with smaller blastzones, and making them heavier to compensate makes them easier to combo.

 

[Sixell]

If rage is necessary then this whole thing truly seems to be a balance issue. Some characters benefit more from rage than others do due to kill confirms, 50/50s, and other things. It's not good when some characters can be at rage and have relatively easy ways to kill when others have to rely on gimps or hard reads.

However, I do agree that weight and blastzone changes aren't the way to go. I think if anything, kill method changes should be the right things to do.

The issue is when a character cannot kill reliably unless the opponent has made a grave error. What I feel that this does is that it lowers the margin of error for some characters and increases it for others. There's no reason to get punished hard for racking up so much damage because you can only do single attack moves that don't link into each other at rage percents. Sheik has U-throw > U-air, Rosalina has double U-air, Pikachu has F-air > U-smash and so on.

 

[Gibbs]

Pikachu has F-air > U-smash and so on.

This isn't real, Pika has no kill confirms that are anywhere near as good as Sheik's d-throw 50-50. Pika needs to get the opponent over 160 in order to confirm a kill from the side of smashville. (Throw to thunder DI mixups aside)

 

[FairyLip]

Rage is an overall terrible mechanic for any character other than Lucario. Lucario is my sole exception, because it's his thing, and, honestly, I think it's fine. Giving it to other characters is just taking uniqueness away from him. Heck, if we ever get Project B or whatever you want to call it, the first thing that should be done would be removing rage. It also encourages more defensive play, with you not wanting to risk as much in case you get killed and lose your powerup.

...Despite this, it's a great mechanic, because it allows characters like Ganondorf, who typically is known for his less-than-high tier placement, to be rewarded for his heavyweight status. I really have no clue what to make of it.

 

[ArikadoSD]

This isn't real, Pika has no kill confirms that are anywhere near as good as Sheik's d-throw 50-50. Pika needs to get the opponent over 160 in order to confirm a kill from the side of smashville. (Throw to thunder DI mixups aside)

Hi, I would like to explain how Sheik's dthrow is not a 50/50. The best option is /always/ to double jump at higher percents, at lower percents air dodge might be better but you probably won't get it because fair/uair from there is a true combo.

At higher percents, however, uair won't kill and vanish would, and if you air dodge vanish will bop you. Otherwise, always jump to avoid anything. Remember: Jump is ALWAYS better. It's never a 50/50, just because commentators say it is doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Gibbs]

Hi, I would like to explain how Sheik's dthrow is not a 50/50. The best option is /always/ to double jump at higher percents, at lower percents air dodge might be better but you probably won't get it because fair/uair from there is a true combo.

At higher percents, however, uair won't kill and vanish would, and if you air dodge vanish will bop you. Otherwise, always jump to avoid anything. Remember: Jump is ALWAYS better. It's never a 50/50, just because commentators say it is doesn't mean it's true.

Sure at super high percents and with rage it's not a kill confirm, but DJ u-air can cover jump on a lot of the cast.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Sure at super high percents and with rage it's not a kill confirm, but DJ u-air can cover jump on a lot of the cast.

no it can't, just jump and then airdodge.

 

[Sixell]

This isn't real, Pika has no kill confirms that are anywhere near as good as Sheik's d-throw 50-50. Pika needs to get the opponent over 160 in order to confirm a kill from the side of smashville. (Throw to thunder DI mixups aside)

I wasn't talking about true combos or anything in terms of the characters I mentioned in particular. Just that they have good kill setups. They can be adjusted accordingly and even if they don't kill, they're still good combo setups at high percents. And interestingly, most of the characters in the OP can kill at least somewhat reliably with or out of grabs. Sure, I have Toot Toot from D-throw, but it has narrow percent windows which means killing with it is probably almost as situational (but not as risky) as Zelda's elevator kills.

...Despite this, it's a great mechanic, because it allows characters like Ganondorf, who typically is known for his less-than-high tier placement, to be rewarded for his heavyweight status. I really have no clue what to make of it.

I've also been told to think of rage in terms of heavier characters, but even then rage seems to be a cop-out for bad balancing. Given the correct move properties, it leaves the game to be more about skill. An interesting analogy that I came up with is trying to balance a racing game by adding a catchup mechanic. Otherwise, a slower car will always lose to a faster car (but racing games are less about balance and more about skill, anyway). I feel like that's what rage is (or at least tries to be). It attempts to prevent gameplay from being too one-sided. As Lancerstaff said, it keeps Sheik in check. Ideally, yes. But the issue is that it doesn't effectively prevent one-sidedness in that if a character like Sheik is fast and safe with several moves, has a stock lead, rage, and plenty of options to rack damage with, it can indeed become one-sided. A mechanic like this will also make bad MUs worse than what they should actually be (regardless of weight).

 

[Kaladin]

Sheik is a featherweight. Sheik is not invalid.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Regarding rage, I would say it's annoying to lightweights, but wouldn't say it invalidates them because in many scenarios it actually helps. I know Sheik for example can kill a LOT easier with uair with rage, and I've killed some lightweights at 90-100% before. Jigglypuff dies at like 80% on battlefield with rage and earlier when you do dthrow > uair or ftilt > uair on a platform.

Also a lot of the advantages in the OP are false lol. Fox is really bad at edgeguarding and Pikachu has 0 kill setups as far as I'm concerned (everyone competent knows how to DI uthrow thunder).

In my vision of an ideal sm4sh rage is not a factor (neither is staleness) and everyone kills earlier to compensate for it.

 

[Sixell]

Regarding rage, I would say it's annoying to lightweights, but wouldn't say it invalidates them because in many scenarios it actually helps. I know Sheik for example can kill a LOT easier with uair with rage, and I've killed some lightweights at 90-100% before. Jigglypuff dies at like 80% on battlefield with rage and earlier when you do dthrow > uair or ftilt > uair on a platform.

Also a lot of the advantages in the OP are false lol. Fox is really bad at edgeguarding and Pikachu has 0 kill setups as far as I'm concerned (everyone competent knows how to DI uthrow thunder).

In my vision of an ideal sm4sh rage is not a factor (neither is staleness) and everyone kills earlier to compensate for it.

Thanks for the tips. I'll fix the OP. And I think Sheik is a pretty good exception to the lightweight struggle due to all of the compensations that she has for that. If we look at characters like Zelda, Mr. Game and Watch, and Jigglypuff, they basically feed rage only to have their hard work lost to an easy kill. Out of the three, Jigglypuff has the most reliable compensation in that she has Rest.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The problem certain low-tier featherweights like G&W and Puff have is that they don't kill well enough to compensate for the problems Rage poses for them. Mewtwo does kill well enough, but has a huge frame that means he can't avoid combos like G&W and Puff can.

 

[Sixell]

The problem certain low-tier featherweights like G&W and Puff have is that they don't kill well enough to compensate for the problems Rage poses for them. Mewtwo does kill well enough, but has a huge frame that means he can't avoid combos like G&W and Puff can.

Mewtwo's kill throw is basically his saving grace. That and shadow ball.

 

[PUK]

Like i said in another thread, rage should not be seen as a come back mecanic because it shouldn't be the reason cme back happens. It's more a punishment mecanic for the players who don't take risk. It make the brawl optimal strategy (camping, slow matches) way less optimal, since something can bite you.
About the featherweight, most of them doesn't care about rage. Pikachu, sheik, fox for exemple are overall very safe. It makes landing enough percent to kill them really rare. Rage might help against them, but less than playing a better character.
Zelda, falco mewtwo and jigg are not concerned, the opponent shouldn't reach 100% anyway.
Kirby and GaW don't really like rage, but in no way it invalidates them. Having trouble killing is a weakness, but it's up to the player to compensate this (and for GaW his smashes and a well space fair are safe, and he's very slippy to fight)

 

[Sixell]

Kirby and GaW don't really like rage, but in no way it invalidates them. Having trouble killing is a weakness, but it's up to the player to compensate this (and for GaW his smashes and a well space fair are safe, and he's very slippy to fight)

F-air is basically one of the worst approach tools for GW. Well-spaced or not, it's not so good. You get that nasty lag after. We try to use well-spaced B-airs if anything. Multi-hit, better for spacing, no horrible sourspot with basically no KB/histun (like F-air's), and the same amount of lag once landed. And the safest smash he has is U-smash. F-smash is too laggy while D-smash has bad startup.

 

[Raijinken]

Rage helps slow, heavy-hitters with high survivability stand a better chance. It also encourages you to finish your opponent's stock quickly before they take an early stock off of you.

The only new mechanic I like more is edge trumping. And that only narrowly.

 

[PUK]

F-air is basically one of the worst approach tools for GW. Well-spaced or not, it's not so good. You get that nasty lag after. We try to use well-spaced B-airs if anything. Multi-hit, better for spacing, no horrible sourspot with basically no KB/histun (like F-air's), and the same amount of lag once landed. And the safest smash he has is U-smash. F-smash is too laggy while D-smash has bad startup.

Yes but don't forget most heavy hitters are not fast and safe. DK, daraen, bowzer, high rage lucario etc... are quite slow and can't heavily punish those "skillful" characters. The only broken raging characters are falcon and fox. Both crap on kirby and company anyway.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So rage is a very significant effect in this game but it's also at the same time often over-stated in importance.
To a high degree of approximation the mathematical impact of rage is to add 1/10th of the raging target's damage to the opponent's damage.
By example what I mean: If Samus is at 0% her CS will kill fox standing at the edge of FD circa 90% damage on fox. If Samus is at 100% her CS will kill him at 90 - 10 = 80%. Similarly if Samus is at 150% he dies at 75%.
It is not as though fox is dying at 40, or 30 or some otherwise absurdly low percent. It's really a 0-15% effect, which in practical terms means one good heavy hit difference.

As a lightweight, you can't take that many hits, and so that relative difference is often quite stark. But really when you die, you shouldn't be reading it as rage's fault, really you were going to die regardless if your opponent got in one more good hit.

I actually like this aspect of the mechanic, frankly the heavyweights need all the help they can get given the other design decisions, what I don't like is how it blurs narrow range true combos.

 

[LightLV]

Rage is a decent idea for heavyweights and niche playstyles, and that's pretty much the extent of it.

Characters who should benefit from rage:
Bowser, Ganon, DK, Dedede, Ike, Charizard, Little Mac, Lucario

Characters who benefit but don't need it:
Link, Yoshi

Everyone else should either have a reduced modifier or not have it at all. Also, Stale Moves should be removed while we're at it. I can stomach rage only because it counteracts the effect, but it was a really stupid idea for stale moves to affect knockback in brawl.

But in the end, Rage is a dumb idea. People SAY it's designed for heavyweights, but im sure it's really just a typical comeback mechanic that happens to synergize well with weight.


the correct way to balance weight vs. speed is to give heavyweights better armor properties and not make their best moves totally reliant on your opponent being ********, like Ike's Fsmash, or Ganon's utilt or warlock punch. The reason Bowser is the best heavyweight is because he actually has good, practical abilities. You don't have to just throw out smash attacks and pray to use him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Rage is a decent idea for heavyweights and niche playstyles, and that's pretty much the extent of it.

Characters who should benefit from rage:
Bowser, Ganon, DK, Dedede, Ike, Charizard, Little Mac, Lucario

Characters who benefit but don't need it:
Link, Yoshi

Everyone else should either have a reduced modifier or not have it at all. Also, Stale Moves should be removed while we're at it. I can stomach rage only because it counteracts the effect, but it was a really stupid idea for stale moves to affect knockback in brawl.

But in the end, Rage is a dumb idea. People SAY it's designed for heavyweights, but im sure it's really just a typical comeback mechanic that happens to synergize well with weight.


the correct way to balance weight vs. speed is to give heavyweights better armor properties and not make their best moves totally reliant on your opponent being ********, like Ike's Fsmash, or Ganon's utilt or warlock punch. The reason Bowser is the best heavyweight is because he actually has good, practical abilities. You don't have to just throw out smash attacks and pray to use him.

What about ones that can kill out if a grab like Zard or Bowser it a command grab?

Puts both into that grappler kind of area, I guess DK as well if cargo up throw to uair actually works.

 

[outfoxd]

People with miniscule KO power might need it. Sometimes Duck Hunt is thirsty for rage powered aerials.

 

[Brosheep]

I remember finding myself in a situation where I, playing Fox for fun on FG, ditto'd a legit player. They knew the character way better than I did. So how did I win? I intentionally allowed myself to get hit by Blaster to power up my Rage, without bothering to do much damage myself. All to bait a mistake and secure a Usmash kill when my opponent was at about 80%.
They (rage)quit after that.
Having found myself in such a situation where the mechanic let me beat a far more skilled player, I'm actually not the biggest fan of rage. It's let me win matches I just plain should've lost.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I remember finding myself in a situation where I, playing Fox for fun on FG, ditto'd a legit player. They knew the character way better than I did. So how did I win? I intentionally allowed myself to get hit by Blaster to power up my Rage, without bothering to do much damage myself. All to bait a mistake and secure a Usmash kill when my opponent was at about 80%.
They (rage)quit after that.
Having found myself in such a situation where the mechanic let me beat a far more skilled player, I'm actually not the biggest fan of rage. It's let me win matches I just plain should've lost.

That person was probably a really bad player.

 

[Brosheep]

That person was probably a really bad player.

They completely whooped me with WFT before even when I played the best I could back then. I think they picked Fox out of sheer disrespect. Pretty strong combo and punish game as well. This person really was a lot better than anyone I'd faced before on FG.
My one time beating them involving me stalling to abuse this game mechanic when all other options would've very likely led to me losing, I don't feel very good about it.

 

[neohopeSTF]

They completely whooped me with WFT before even when I played the best I could back then. I think they picked Fox out of sheer disrespect. Pretty strong combo and punish game as well. This person really was a lot better than anyone I'd faced before on FG.
My one time beating them involving me stalling to abuse this game mechanic when all other options would've very likely led to me losing, I don't feel very good about it.

If they couldn't deal with rage then they probably weren't very good with Fox. People overrate rage tbh. Heavyweights are still trash in Smash 4 with or without it.