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Does morality need "higher powers" or spirituality to justify its existence?

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Teran

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It's a question I've always pondered over. Moral code is a very puzzling thing. It has changed constantly throughout time, is different for every person, every culture, every nation etc.

Since the birth of man, religion has existed in some form. Over time religious beliefs became more abstract and complex, with more depth and meaning behind the philosophies. It wasn't a long period of time between bowing before fire and worshipping an omnipotent, omnipresent Deity that judges us all. Nowadays, religion still plays a huge factor in the lives of most people, from the small tribal deities to the Abrahamic God. For these people, moral codes exist, and they exist because a greater, divine power told them so. The deity tells them what is right and what his wrong, it tells them what the correct and incorrect paths are. Due to these beliefs, these people having a sense of morality is entirely justified, because the creator of their world told them so, so who are they to argue otherwise? For a religious person to believe in morality makes absolute sense.

For an atheist, however, is it really rational to believe that morality is some sort of actual rule? Or rather not an atheist, but perhaps those who have literally no belief in the spiritual, for those who believe that life is just a random sequence of chemical reactions, and that when you die your life is over. Think about it, if you believe there is no higher order, that you are just part of the universe's chaotic nature, that life has no purpose or meaning, what place does morality have for you? Without a higher power telling you what is right or wrong, can you really say the concept even exists? It's very easy to argue that without any sort of higher power or sense of spirituality, good and evil are just manmade concepts used for control. I've heard some argue that "morality is a necessary and true part of society, what else can you attribute all this progress to?" Again one could go on to say that the concept of social progress in itself is largely arbritrary, and the scientific and technological progress are the only real quantifiable measure of progress. It is also very easy to put forth the argument that moral norms of society that permit murder, ****, theft, and other such things were not originally coined as evil because there is such thing as evil, but because for a larger society to grow and flourish with stability, such things must be prohibited. For murder specifically, it can be said that this concept in itself is due to a species wanting to ensure its own success as a whole, I know there are many exceptions but this is a general rule of thumb. So back to morality, considering its different interpretations across the world, and the changes to its nature over the ages, can it really be deemed something that is actually some sort of real law, or is it just something that humans coined to keep order? Is it really so outlandish to believe that morality has no place for someone with no spiritual beliefs? If so, and if one believes morality is made up, what keeps them from doing as they please?

One can easily answer the above question by replacing morality with practicality. As stated before, in a large society that relies on order, thing considered crimes are crimes because they cause disruption and chaos. Most drugs aren't illegal because of they're grow by Satan, they're illegal because their nature can disrupt functionality of society members. Think about ****. If there were free reign for a man to just jump a woman as she walked down the street and **** her on her way to work, that would screw productivity up pretty badly. Large society needs order to function smoothly, somewhat like this forum has rules and regulations to function in a way that it wants to. We enforce rules like multiposting restrictions, soam, trolling, flaming. While none of this is in itself really a big deal when you get to the core of it, it's disruptive to this site, and thus is outlawed, the same could be applied to moral code.

Again, all of this could be completely argued against, since although there isn't really conclusive scientific fact on this subject (due to the complexity of the brain), some could take up the argument that morality is an intrinsic part of human nature, and not something we coined. Perhaps the general instincts of complex organisms combined with the more complex nature of our brains makes us interpret our instincts in a more abstract way. Also judging from the altruistic things other animals have been seen doing, perhaps morality has a greater place in the scheme of things than some give it credit for?

One could argue many points, but I pose this question to you again, without higher powers or a sense of spiritual order, can one really justify the existence of morality, good, and evil as a genuinely true system?
 

ballin4life

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God saying that things are right doesn't make them necessarily right either. Of course, you may personally DEFINE right as "what God wants" but it's impossible to show that this is the correct definition. I could also define right as "what I want" or "promoting the highest aggregate happiness" or "promoting highest average happiness" or whatever else.

Or just read the thread on the "Is-Ought problem"
 

Teran

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God saying that things are right doesn't make them necessarily right either.
If you follow the faith systems which portray God, then yes He is always right, since he created the universe and man, and pretty much chooses the fate of your soul based on your actions.

Since he is the overseer and omnipotent controller of the universe, then yes by that belief system he governs exactly what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Also a lot of spiritual beliefs have a sense of right and wrong with a post death judgment system, which is basically what I'm getting at, a system of consequence and actual meaning.
 

ballin4life

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See, that's just another moral opinion. It's perfectly consistent for someone else to say "Yes there is God, but still THIS is the correct moral system, regardless of what God says"
 

Teran

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See, that's just another moral opinion. It's perfectly consistent for someone else to say "Yes there is God, but still THIS is the correct moral system, regardless of what God says"
No that isn't a moral opinion, that's a rule of the faith of Judaism/Christianity/Islam etc

It's a belief in a God and the teachings of His prophets, which ultimately leads to their moral codes.

And what you're talking about is Deism, and yes someone can also say that, but then ultimately that person would be talking trash because they'd have no basis for justifying their moral code other than "I said so", which is not good enough.

God saying so is good enough because in the way religions perceive Him, He is the omnipotent and omniscient being that governs everything. Therefore, He knows wassup.

You're just not getting this are you
 

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Sure -- if you simply accept God and nothing beyond that.

But if you accept a particular faith, depending on the faith in question, then there's no wiggle room. And there's certainly no "regardless of what God says". That is seriously not how it works, not from a perspective such as that.

This is a massive tangent, though. The point here is to consider that while morality is absolute and concrete under certain belief structures, and that most spiritual perspectives provide an infrastructure of morality on some level, if you believe in absolutely nothing beyond science, all of that is gone. We exist in a vacuum of spiritual consequence or reward -- so, where does a moral compass come in here? How? Why?

I'm a proper atheist, and yet I'm a principled person, I have strong morals that guide me. I haven't been able to reconcile this question, and I've been pondering on it for many years now. That's why I'm interested in seeing where this debate develops.

Ninja'd by teran. That's to ballin.
 

ballin4life

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No that isn't a moral opinion, that's a rule of the faith of Judaism/Christianity/Islam etc
Which is just another moral opinion...

It's a belief in a God and the teachings of His prophets, which ultimately leads to their moral codes.

And what you're talking about is Deism, and yes someone can also say that, but then ultimately that person would be talking trash because they'd have no basis for justifying their moral code other than "I said so", which is not good enough.
No one has any justification besides that. Maybe "God said so", but God is just another being with an opinion.

God saying so is good enough because in the way religions perceive Him, He is the omnipotent and omniscient being that governs everything. Therefore, He knows wassup.
Yes religions believe this. But that's just another moral opinion.

I mean, imagine for a second that there is a God who wants everyone to go around killing each other. Would this be the right thing to do, just because God says so?

You're just not getting this are you
lol. You're the one not getting it. It's pretty simple: any moral position ultimately comes down to "I said so" or "he said so". Read the thread on the is-ought problem in the Proving Grounds.

Sure -- if you simply accept God and nothing beyond that.

But if you accept a particular faith, depending on the faith in question, then there's no wiggle room. And there's certainly no "regardless of what God says". That is seriously not how it works, not from a perspective such as that.
I don't disagree with any of this. But this is like saying "if you are a utilitarian, then you have to maximize happiness and there is no wiggle room". Well, obviously, because that's one of the tenets of the position.

This is a massive tangent, though. The point here is to consider that while morality is absolute and concrete under certain belief structures, and that most spiritual perspectives provide an infrastructure of morality on some level, if you believe in absolutely nothing beyond science, all of that is gone. We exist in a vacuum of spiritual consequence or reward -- so, where does a moral compass come in here? How? Why?
But ultimately, religious morality comes from the same source as any other: "I said so" - or "he said so".

I'm a proper atheist, and yet I'm a principled person, I have strong morals that guide me. I haven't been able to reconcile this question, and I've been pondering on it for many years now. That's why I'm interested in seeing where this debate develops.
Yes, there is no objective reason to have morals. However, if you have subjective feelings about what is right, then it will make you happier to stick to those principles. So keep on doing that.

You may also believe that the principles you follow are best for humanity as a whole, or that people have natural rights, or whatever else. There may be no 100% objective reason for these being true, but no one has a 100% objective reason for any morality (saying "God wants this" still requires the extra step that "what God wants is right" which cannot be PROVEN true, only DEFINED as true)


Anyway, read this post in the "Is-Ought problem" thread:

click the blue button
 

Teran

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Which is just another moral opinion...
I stopped reading after this.

This statement nullifies everything you say. Morality is a concept of good and evil, believing in the existence of a deity is independent of that. It's called a belief or faith, not a moral choice.
 

ballin4life

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I stopped reading after this.
Congrats, because that's all you really needed to read. Although I would still recommend this post (it's very informative):

click the blue button

This statement nullifies everything you say. Morality is a concept of good and evil, believing in the existence of a deity is independent of that. It's called a belief or faith, not a moral choice.
I know what morality means. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have certain moral rules as tenets of their religion, just like many other groups do.

Of course, each of them claim that their moral rules are objectively right, but they don't have any proof of this, just like utilitarians or natural right theorists can't prove that they are objectively right. That's because you can't derive an ought from an is.

The statement nullifies everything, because any moral statement can be "refuted" by saying "that's just your opinion". If you attempt to justify morality by saying "God says we should do it", then one can "refute" this by saying "well it's just your opinion that we should listen to God". Of course Christians/Muslims/Jews/whoever else will still want to listen to God though, because that's one of the tenets of their religion.
 

Theftz22

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Yeah my thread touches on these issues very closely. Specifically why god doesn't provide an objective basis for morality and why traditional secular systems don't either. However there's also a section on a secular moral system that I do find useful and correct. So yeah, I suggest you read the linked thread.
 

_Keno_

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God saying so is good enough because in the way religions perceive Him, He is the omnipotent and omniscient being that governs everything. Therefore, He knows wassup.
There are tons of problems with omnipotence and omniscience, but even if we accepted those to be possible, God either arbitrary commands morality or He appeals to some sort of code outside of Himself (which literally doesn't make sense). Sure, its in your best interest to follow what God says, assuming He is real, but no matter what you do, you are either following your own subjective morals or God's subjective morals.
 

KrazyGlue

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This seems to be turning into an objective morality debate. No morality can be objective unless you define some goal you're trying to reach, in which case you're really just defining a set of ethics matched to that goal. Now, I know the response is going to be "if you believe in a deity, you do have objective morals, because that deity is perfect and you have to agree with them". But what you're really saying is "to me, these morals are objective". Which is silly, because you're just restating what your beliefs are. Believing in a deity doesn't have to do with morals, but when you attribute moral beliefs to your deity, you're really just projecting what you believe in back onto yourself, if that makes any sense. In other words, whether you know it or not, you're thinking "I believe in a deity and I believe in these morals, therefore I believe in a deity with those morals, which I now have to abide by". In essence, you're just following your own morals, and your belief in a deity coincides with that, allowing you to believe in a deity with those moral beliefs.
 

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when you attribute moral beliefs to your deity, you're really just projecting what you believe in back onto yourself, if that makes any sense
That's not necessarily true at all. What about Islam? The Qur'an is taken to be the literal word of God (Allah) sent through the prophet Muhammed, as a conduit to our plane of existence. From the perspective of a Muslim, no morals are attributed to their God and then back to us. They are the morals send down from God, regardless of how you feel about them, and thus they must be objective.

Let me elaborate a little more.

You're looking at religious morality from the lens of a non-believer. "They believe in a deity that has sent down these morals, but I know/feel that there is no such deity, therefore no deity could send down these morals -- therefore they are attributing their own morals to this deity and they become objective in a circular manner."

However, if there is a God, and that variation of God did in fact outline a moral code in some manner, then by believing in that God you are bound by this moral code. From their perspective, it is objective. This does not transcend all points of view, and is therefore not truly objective, but the point is that from this particular perspective (believer's lens) these morals are not only objective, but justified.

And justification is the core of this debate that quite literally no one is addressing. This is the first time I've said this, but I wish we had more deists/theists in here. I'm all for interesting discussion, but I think that the subject of the OP is more interesting than another objective morality debate, which could of course have a topic of its own. It's new ground we could be breaking in our discussions.

I'm not sure where this went off the rails, but it was pretty much immediate. "Spirituality justifies its own spiritual morals but--" "Aha, but that logic is flawed! You see..." Insert religion and religious morality debate.

The thing is that I find the central confliction addressed AFTER that "but", so to speak, infinitely more interesting. CAN morality exist in a vacuum of spirituality, and yet have a justified existence? How? Why? What about it transcends the usual barriers of evidence?

Anyone willing to rewind now that I've clarified this a bit?
 

ballin4life

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However, if there is a God, and that variation of God did in fact outline a moral code in some manner, then by believing in that God you are bound by this moral code. From their perspective, it is objective. This does not transcend all points of view, and is therefore not truly objective, but the point is that from this particular perspective (believer's lens) these morals are not only objective, but justified.
Suppose I hold the following belief:

(1) Humans ought to do whatever I say.

Then from my perspective, this is an objective moral law, and is justified.


If you disagree with the above argument, then please point out the difference (note that in (1) we can simply replace "I say" with "God says").

If not, then we are on the same page.

And justification is the core of this debate that quite literally no one is addressing. This is the first time I've said this, but I wish we had more deists/theists in here. I'm all for interesting discussion, but I think that the subject of the OP is more interesting than another objective morality debate, which could of course have a topic of its own. It's new ground we could be breaking in our discussions.
What sort of justification do you want?

I'm not sure where this went off the rails, but it was pretty much immediate. "Spirituality justifies its own spiritual morals but--" "Aha, but that logic is flawed! You see..." Insert religion and religious morality debate.
The title of the post is "Does morality need 'higher powers' or spirituality to justify its existence?"

The answer is no because higher powers and spirituality do not "justify" its existence.

The thing is that I find the central confliction addressed AFTER that "but", so to speak, infinitely more interesting. CAN morality exist in a vacuum of spirituality, and yet have a justified existence? How? Why? What about it transcends the usual barriers of evidence?

Anyone willing to rewind now that I've clarified this a bit?
Of course morality can exist in a vaccum, but there is no "justification" for morality, at least in the sense that you can't derive morality from truths about what exists (a.k.a. the is-ought problem).


Perhaps if you defined justification I could answer more specifically. What exactly would be a justification for morality?
 

KrazyGlue

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From their perspective, it is objective. This does not transcend all points of view, and is therefore not truly objective, but the point is that from this particular perspective (believer's lens) these morals are not only objective, but justified.
This is exactly what I meant. It's objective to that person, but is not "truly" objective. Agreed.

This is the first time I've said this, but I wish we had more deists/theists in here. I'm all for interesting discussion, but I think that the subject of the OP is more interesting than another objective morality debate, which could of course have a topic of its own. It's new ground we could be breaking in our discussions.

I'm not sure where this went off the rails, but it was pretty much immediate. "Spirituality justifies its own spiritual morals but--" "Aha, but that logic is flawed! You see..." Insert religion and religious morality debate.

The thing is that I find the central confliction addressed AFTER that "but", so to speak, infinitely more interesting.
Agreed. Yeah, I was going to address the OP directly, but I felt it would be out of place considering that's not what the actual debating had been about. But yes, the OP is quite interesting and is something we have not touched on much yet. So, with that said,

CAN morality exist in a vacuum of spirituality, and yet have a justified existence? How? Why? What about it transcends the usual barriers of evidence?

Anyone willing to rewind now that I've clarified this a bit?
If we're defining an absence of spirituality as Teran did, i.e. believing that everything that we think is just a biochemical reaction in the brain, we have an interesting question here. I'm going to have to agree with ballin4life. Moral opinions would still exist, but there would be no way to justify them, as they would all be in the eye (or in this case, brain) of the beholder.
 

Theftz22

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You know, why don't I just quote this paragraph.

Theists will often use this to proclaim that only god provides an objective source of morality, but even with his omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, and transcendence, does god solve the Is Ought Problem? Well it would appear the answer is no, for if morality is truly only the realm of subjective feelings, how does a commandment by god change that? It's akin to saying that if god said that blueberry pie was the best type of pie, then it would objectively be true for all persons, regardless of their preferences. Digging deeper, we have the Euthyphro Dilemma. That is, are god's commandments moral by sheer virtue of the fact that he commands them, or does he command them because they are already moral? By the first it would seem morality becomes completely arbitrary; it is no particular quality of an action that makes it moral but simply the fact that god commanded it. There would be no reason for god making a commandment, because the commandment would only become moral after he commanded it. God's moral authority itself would only be circular; he would only be a moral authority after he had made commandments that he adhered to, and additionally, anything he could command would be moral. The second option, that is he commands them because they are already moral, gives no account of morality. God is ultimately a divine mailman, morals are outside and beyond his own power. He is completely irrelevant as to whether or not things are moral, and thus it presupposes morality at the onset. Now even if all of these objections were met, all the theist would establish is that god's commands are moral, but would it mean that the Is Ought Gap is solved? By the mere fact that God has commanded something and that something is moral, could we conclude that you ought follow that commandment? That has not been established. Why ought we follow god's commandments? Why ought we be moral? The theist has not yet shown why. Perhaps the theist would turn to hell, we ought be moral and we ought follow god's commandments because we will go to hell if we don't. But this would require the subjective desire of wanting to avoid hell. It appears god cannot solve the Is Ought Problem. Some of this video is good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk#t=8m16s
 

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You guys make logical points, but you have a narrow definition of morality, or moral theories to be more specific.

The is ought fallacy doesn't apply to moral theories with ontological frameworks, such as natural law theory. NL says being is good, so what's good is what is, not the ought. So NL analyses human nature, the ought is what we move towards, such as food, sex, arts etc. and we infer what is the is if that makes sense.
 

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The is ought fallacy doesn't apply to moral theories with ontological frameworks, such as natural law theory.
As I'm aware of it, the is ought gap applies to any attempts to move from factual Is statements to moral Ought prescriptions. Now if you show that your prescriptions do have a valid ontological basis, then you've solved it I guess, but I don't think that has been done.

NL says being is good, so what's good is what is, not the ought. So NL analyses human nature, the ought is what we move towards, such as food, sex, arts etc. and we infer what is the is if that makes sense.
Firstly i'm really confused by the wording of this and can only respond to the parts I understand what you are trying to say.

Firstly you could not say that being is good, therefore we ought ?be? (lol what does that even mean). First you would have to establish that we ought be good. Which you cannot objectively do. The move from moral description to prescription cannot be made, even if you do posit your own definition of good. And past that I don't understand what you mean.:awesome:
 

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Underdogs- I never said you have to be good, or why you should be, I just said what is good.

The ought is what we move toward- food, sex etc. so this is what constitutes our being. The is then, is the sex, nourishment etc. which is completely factual. Again this all stems from the ontological framework that being is good.

I don't understand why the I O fallacy should only apply to morality though. Why ought we apply the fallacy?
 

KrazyGlue

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The is ought fallacy doesn't apply to moral theories with ontological frameworks, such as natural law theory. NL says being is good, so what's good is what is, not the ought. So NL analyses human nature, the ought is what we move towards, such as food, sex, arts etc. and we infer what is the is if that makes sense.
Why should we accept the Natural Law theory?
 

Savon

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Anybody else think that we have a very VERY basic sense of morality naturally? We have certain natural instincts that suggest we have a basic sense of right and wrong. We feel guilt, we have natural instinct to protect our young and protect each other from harm when possible. Those basic ideas make up the foundation of most modern societies.

Religion tends to get into really specific stuff, but I am not theological expert, so I will leave that issue alone.
 

Dre89

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Why should we accept the Natural Law theory?
Firstly, it's one of the few theories that doesn't commit the fallacy. The ontological framework is pretty much the only way you can actually prove an objective morality exists, it doesn't just go off an unjustified assumption that it exists. It also entails a harmony of reason and human nature, in that it's based on something objective (human nature) it isn't purely intellectual and abstract.

Basically your question is to broad to answer in one post, so I'll adress any specific question you have.

Savon- Religions have two types of morality- natural and theological. Natural morality is don't kill etc. Theological is go to mass on Sunday etc. The main religions seem to have the same natural morality.
 

Theftz22

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Why does everyone think that morality has a prescriptive aspect to it?
There are two aspects to morality, prescriptive and descriptive. Here's the encyclopedia of philosophy's definition of morality. Or just on the wiki entry on morality. Referring to descriptive ethics and prescriptive, or normative, ethics is the standard. I'm not sure what you mean. Furthermore what use does morality have if we only engage in describing behavior? We ultimately must make prescriptions about what one should or should not do for morality to have any purpose.

Underdogs- I never said you have to be good, or why you should be, I just said what is good.
Fair enough. Anyone can arbitrarily define and create a coherent view on good and evil. It's just the move to prescriptions that catches the system up.

The ought is what we move toward- food, sex etc. so this is what constitutes our being. The is then, is the sex, nourishment etc. which is completely factual. Again this all stems from the ontological framework that being is good.
To begin with not everyone move towards being. People choose death over being. Your definition would maintain that is evil, because you define being as good. But you have not shown why we ought be, for you cannot show that we ought be good. Furthermore, the ought is a prescription, you ought do this or that. It is not, I move towards this or that. It would have to be, you ought move towards this or that. The former being a simple Is statement and the latter being the goal of the prescription. NL does not make objective prescriptions and I do not see how it can.

I don't understand why the I O fallacy should only apply to morality though. Why ought we apply the fallacy?
The Is Ought problem applies to any attempts to move from facts to prescriptions. This applies mostly to moral prescriptions, but it could apply to anything else regarding prescriptions. I never made any prescription such as It is logically invalid to make Is Ought statements, therefore we ought not make them. It depends on If you want to be logical and have a logically valid view, then we ought apply the Is Ought problem. And since we are in a forum of logical debate, I assumed we did. So I would maintain that Is Ought statements are logically invalid, but I would not prescribe that we ought be logically valid.
 

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Firstly, it's one of the few theories that doesn't commit the fallacy. The ontological framework is pretty much the only way you can actually prove an objective morality exists, it doesn't just go off an unjustified assumption that it exists. It also entails a harmony of reason and human nature, in that it's based on something objective (human nature) it isn't purely intellectual and abstract.

Basically your question is to broad to answer in one post, so I'll adress any specific question you have.
Sure, the theory doesn't commit the fallacy, but that doesn't mean it's right. Basically, why should we accept the idea behind this theory, i.e. that "being" is good?
 

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I'll try answer you and Dogs in one hit seeing as the posts are related.

Humans can will death because they can be otherwise than their ow nature. Now the reason I say this, instead of suicide just being naturally good, is that if something could will non being, then it can be otherwise than its own nature, for if non being was good, or if there was nothing wrong with non being, there'd be no purpose for being in the first place.

Think about it. If non being was desirable, then there'd be no point being a being in the first place. This is why beings naturally desire to preserve their own being. Note that I'm not invoking God when I say purpose. A chicken's purpose is to lay eggs etc. God or not. That's what it moves towards. The very fact there is being means there is this movement.

Krazy the reason why the theory is right is not because of what it prescribes, but why it prescribes it, which is briefly explained above. The ontological framework makes the most sense of the concept of good and whether it exists in reality or not.

Dogs- But in criticising prescription you yourself are prescribing something, that is the IO. Now you'll say "well logic in it's entirety is undermined", and that's exactly my point. I'm showing the consequences of being consistent with criticising prescription.
 

Theftz22

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Not at all. Re-read this part.

"I never made any prescription such as It is logically invalid to make Is Ought statements, therefore we ought not make them. It depends on If you want to be logical and have a logically valid view, then we ought apply the Is Ought problem. And since we are in a forum of logical debate, I assumed we did. So I would maintain that Is Ought statements are logically invalid, but I would not prescribe that we ought be logically valid."
 
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