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Does Lucas need an Up-Smash.... buff?

A Polar Bear

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 30, 2015
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Okay, hear me out.

I know it may seem strange and slightly insulting that the young God of up smash needs a buff to his u-smash, after all it's already the strongest in the game, covers more distance in all directions than all other u-smashes, and it's sacrilege to even think that Lucas' most powerful move is... rather lackluster...

Mechanically, it's meant to be a hard punish, a tool that's slow to execute but rewarding and satisfying to hit, and in situations where there's more chaos like multi-man Smash or item enabled matches, it's not that hard to connect.

But against one other player on For Glory or in a tourney, it becomes situational to the point of foolhardy to try and use it unless you have the most confident of reads or a surefire beat on the opponent's movement. Though its range covers rolls, it is slow enough that unless you execute it right, the opponent can get a shield up or escape before the hitbox comes out, and then ponder over a cup of tea as to what to punish you with as you come off your 3 year cooldown. It's Lucas' most powerful attack, but for a smart player, one of his least, least used.

And if you think about it... it's actually not that strong. It kills most characters at around... I'll be generous and say 75-85%. For a move that's as obscenely slow as it is, it feels a bit underpowered. I feel like if you do manage to get a beat on the opponent and connect with the move, it should be able to KO faster...

That, or leave its power and make its execution and cooldown less punishable, because while many other characters have smash attacks that can be confidently thrown out to merely cover space and options or just for the heck of it and hope it lands, Lucas can't do that without fear of punish.

For a move that's so revered and advertised as "PK Love", Lucas' strongest attack, it honestly isn't used that much, and it shouldn't be if you're a clever player. I propose some sort of buff to make it a bit more viable, help Lucas kill better. He needs it.

What do y'all think?
 

NGulfViper

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7
They should give more invincibility frames to it like from the end of charge to when the hitbox comes out
 

JesterJaded

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
264
Okay, hear me out.

I know it may seem strange and slightly insulting that the young God of up smash needs a buff to his u-smash, after all it's already the strongest in the game, covers more distance in all directions than all other u-smashes, and it's sacrilege to even think that Lucas' most powerful move is... rather lackluster...

Mechanically, it's meant to be a hard punish, a tool that's slow to execute but rewarding and satisfying to hit, and in situations where there's more chaos like multi-man Smash or item enabled matches, it's not that hard to connect.

But against one other player on For Glory or in a tourney, it becomes situational to the point of foolhardy to try and use it unless you have the most confident of reads or a surefire beat on the opponent's movement. Though its range covers rolls, it is slow enough that unless you execute it right, the opponent can get a shield up or escape before the hitbox comes out, and then ponder over a cup of tea as to what to punish you with as you come off your 3 year cooldown. It's Lucas' most powerful attack, but for a smart player, one of his least, least used.

And if you think about it... it's actually not that strong. It kills most characters at around... I'll be generous and say 75-85%. For a move that's as obscenely slow as it is, it feels a bit underpowered. I feel like if you do manage to get a beat on the opponent and connect with the move, it should be able to KO faster...

That, or leave its power and make its execution and cooldown less punishable, because while many other characters have smash attacks that can be confidently thrown out to merely cover space and options or just for the heck of it and hope it lands, Lucas can't do that without fear of punish.

For a move that's so revered and advertised as "PK Love", Lucas' strongest attack, it honestly isn't used that much, and it shouldn't be if you're a clever player. I propose some sort of buff to make it a bit more viable, help Lucas kill better. He needs it.

What do y'all think?
I'm inclined to agree, for the most part. Considering the majority of Lucas's moves being unsafe in general, some buffs trimming the lag on his moves would be a welcome change.

But on the other hand, a powerful Usmash means a deadly jablock finisher. You could just as easily read with Fair > jablock > Usmash if you want to avoid being hard(er) punished, considering the tech window is rather small. This is where Lucas has a fair implementation of Usmash.

Trimming the startup lag to make it combo-viable is something that I'd have a field day with.
 
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Tito Maas

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I just need prolonged invincibility frames on it, and it'd be much better. I can never seem to actually get the invincibility frames to work. I can never seem to be able to punish landings with it, and why shouldn't I be able to?
 
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Snackss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
362
The move sucks most of the time, frankly. It's not even that strong considering it's one of the biggest commitments in the game by far. The startup is so long that I'd say just give it more invincibility. If you try to knock somebody out of their up smash, that's exactly what they want to happen and you'll get hit. But for Lucas, he just gets knocked right out of it like it's nothing.
 
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Agent Emerald

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 1, 2014
Messages
243
Like what Jester said, shaving off some of the lag would be really awesome. Sure, it already has insane power and range, but the lag is far to great for it to be a truly great option.
 

Ze Dewott

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Jan 16, 2015
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I hear ya on that. Maybe give it some super armor on start up, or just decreasing the start and/or ending lag on it would be fantastic. When you can swing a quick F-Smash sweetspot with Marth/Roy (more so Roy) and kill at 60% (near the edge), I think it would be fine to decrease the lag on this move.
 

A Polar Bear

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 30, 2015
Messages
187
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I just need prolonged invincibility frames on it, and it'd be much better. I can never seem to actually get the invincibility frames to work. I can never seem to be able to punish landings with it, and why shouldn't I be able to?
TBH I'm not a fan of overdoing invincibility frames, it's just a personal thing, but I feel like it makes the game jankier and gimmicky. It would honestly look strange if Lucas had more than frames 1-4 invincibility, as moves would be hitting him but he's somehow not taking it...? I don't know, personal preference.

I hear ya on that. Maybe give it some super armor on start up, or just decreasing the start and/or ending lag on it would be fantastic. When you can swing a quick F-Smash sweetspot with Marth/Roy (more so Roy) and kill at 60% (near the edge), I think it would be fine to decrease the lag on this move.
I like the idea of super armour better, maybe in the few frames before the hitbox comes out.

I'm inclined to believe that they didn't make the game with just balance in mind, but also movesets and speed that makes sense for each respective character. It wouldn't be too fitting for Lucas to have FE Swordies' speed, I suppose, and in Mother 3 he is known for moving last ever each turn... but still, u-smash, just a bit too laggy even for him.
 

Tito Maas

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TBH I'm not a fan of overdoing invincibility frames, it's just a personal thing, but I feel like it makes the game jankier and gimmicky. It would honestly look strange if Lucas had more than frames 1-4 invincibility, as moves would be hitting him but he's somehow not taking it...? I don't know, personal preference.



I like the idea of super armour better, maybe in the few frames before the hitbox comes out.
Super armor would be fine. Either way, if it has invincibility frames then the point of it, in theory, would be to be able to tank hits while dealing damage. So I would be fine with super armor, even if it only lasted through the first hitbox.

But as it stands now, the invincibility doesn't even occur when the hitbox occurs so it's pointless. I may have only ever tanked one attack with it and have never been able to replicate that.
 

The 0ne

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I would rather the four frames of invincibility came four frames before the first hitbox came out. It's a lot easier to time that way.

That, or make it stronger. My beef with up-smash is it's not scary to people. When they get hit by Mario's they go AAAAAHHH!! but with Lucas it's like "oh, dammit." I would want it to kill uncharged sweet spotted around 65-75%. PK Flash and PK Thunder 2 kill much earlier than it, and as mentioned above, the Fire Emblem character's fsmashes kill as early as 40% at the edge, plus they're faster in startup and endlag. It's actually happened to me.
 

fernby

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Dec 7, 2014
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seattle
its already very good, with lucas's combo game being so good i dont see why this move would need to be any better, even if the move had no invincibility frames we would still use it, as much as itd be nice to see it get buffed i dont think its in any way needed
 

Snackss

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its already very good, with lucas's combo game being so good i dont see why this move would need to be any better, even if the move had no invincibility frames we would still use it, as much as itd be nice to see it get buffed i dont think its in any way needed
It's a bad move. It's kind of a joke compared to Ike's. It's not less useful than most characters up smashes are for catching people who double jump back on stage, but it's 3 times as risky and its launching power is underwhelming.
 
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fernby

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It's a bad move. It's kind of a joke compared to Ike's. It's not less useful than most characters up smashes are for catching people who double jump back on stage, but it's 3 times as risky and its launching power is underwhelming.
ike doesnt have guaranteed combos into up smash though
 

JesterJaded

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ike doesnt have guaranteed combos into up smash though
Couldn't it be argued that D-smash can kill in these combos as opposed to U-smash? Most combos I've seen utilizing a guaranteed U-smash have been jablocks, but they've also been demonstrated with a D-smash finisher instead.
 

The 0ne

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What combos does Lucas have into Upsmash? All I've seen are either locks or air dodge reads.
 

A Polar Bear

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What combos does Lucas have into Upsmash? All I've seen are either locks or air dodge reads.
Shield break -> U-smash is true

AFK -> U-smash

Lag-switch -> U-smash

And occasionally, side taunt, u-taunt, or d-taunt -> U-smash -> d-taunt
 

JesterJaded

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Apparently, JC U-smash's frame 1 - 4 invincibility makes it a fantastic OoS option, especially against multi-hit moves. This could be very useful against shield pressure.
 

rp17000

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Idk if it's worth noting, but D-throw to U-smash is a true combo on fast-fallers at very low percents. Almost positive they can DI out though. But i love to abuse it on scrubby Falcons.
 
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