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Does God really exist?

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Crimson King

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There isn't enough religious based arguments for my tastes so let's go for the big one.

What is the biggest evidence of God's existance? The bible is the one supposed source of his presence, but look at other things in life. References to other things existance is in more than one source. For example proof of automobiles is evident in more than just a Ford book. So, how can people base their life on just one book written about 1500 years ago?
 

HMWii22

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Crimson King said:
...how can people base their life on just one book written about 1500 years ago?
Exactly. Moreover, how can people honestly and truly believe there is a magical man in the sky who watches over us? At the risk of offending anyone, religion is just kind of silly in my opinion. However... I have absolutely no problem with people being religious, and I don't consider people as being stupid simply because they are theists. However, I am against organized religion because it causes wars. People should be free to believe what they want, but forcing your beliefs on others is extremely lame.
 

Royal Flush

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Well I think there is a god but the Bible would have to be inaccurate. As there were no computer or any other of the amazing technology we have today back about 2 milliniums ago. That means that the entire story had to have been passed on by word-of-mouth and people exaggerate stories more and more each time told so just imagine how off the bible would be from the the truth. I mean...the earliest the Bible could have been published is about 1960`s.
 

Sinz

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Begolfer13 said:
the earliest the Bible could have been published is about 1960`s.
the thing is. We have proof of it being here in the 1500s... 1800s... So ido not know how you justify that.
 

Crimson King

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The bible was completed in the 1500s. Not the 1960s. I really don't know where you got that number from.
 

nin10do_revolution

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I do believe in God, and I pray to him daily. And before you start flaming, here's my reasons.

1. No one has proof of how long the first day that God created lasted, no one said it was a 24-hour day, so the first day could have been 1,00,000 years long for all we know.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
2. I think that as long as you are faithful to A GOD, and not nessecarily THE GODS, or THE GODDESSES, then you will be saved and you will reach paradise, no matter what religion.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
3. Scientific events have coincided with the Bible's foretellings.

The Big Bang-----"Let there be light!"
THe Big Crunch----the apocalypse

^^just for two.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

basically, I'm just trying to sum up that God is real. If you want me to extend my response, I will be glad to do so.
 

Sinz

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nin10do I believe in god as well, I am mormon. So I agree with what you say. People please do not flame me because of my religion I get enough persecution everyday.
 

Crimson King

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Don't just say you believe in a god DRF, explain. This is a debate forum.

In response to Nin10do Revolution (hereby Nin, here on out) this is what I have to say. The ancient Sumarians created the solar based calendar and timeline. They established a day as 24 hours and a year as 300+ days(days were added as rotations got longer and what not). They also inhabitated a land named "Ur." Ur is right along the area of India, Africa, basically the middle East. Most importantly, Israel. From Ur came Abraham. Abraham was different as he said there wasn't many gods but one, true God. He said God told him about life's creation, ect and the books were called Genesis and what not. Unfortunately, what Abraham forgot was that most of the stories he put into the bible and scriptures were stories that existed in Sumer lore. Such as the great flood and Adam and Eve were ripped straight from the Epic of Gilgamesh, written a few 1,000 years before Abraham. So, Abraham took stories that people already knew and just added God instead of the Pagan interpretations.

Also, Nin, as I was saying. Sumerians created the timeline of days as 24 hours around the year 8000- 6000 B.C.E.
 

Resting_Fox

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In this circumstance, the easy way out would be to call agnosticism and just say, You can't prove God's existence one way or the other, which is essentially true. However, there are certain phenomena that seem to indicate the existence of a god, if not some other form of higher spiritual entity.

We all know about the placebo effect. This is probably the most common form of faith medicine. If you need a briefing, the placebo effect is when a patient is given a pill or treatment that has no biological or chemical cure, then the patient is told it is a valid treatment, and consequently the patient is cured, presumably by his/her own faith in the cure. There are some arguments to the placebo effect, claiming that the faith only ups the bodies response to the problem and that no actual internal miracle takes place.

For example, say you have frequent headaches, and you go to the doctor about it. He gives you a placebo and tells you take them for your headaches. Then next time you have a headache, you take the pill and are relieved. Basically what happened biologically is that your idea of having a cure made your body increased its pain-blocking chemicals that would detect aching in the region of your head. But the question is WHY. Why doesn't the body naturally secrete the chemicals to numb the pain if it knows it is experiencing pain. Why can't a person cure a headache through bio-feedback, or self hypnosis. Obviously faith has some power over biological functions, and whether this is due to divine intervention is still left to personal opinion.

I don't know if many of you are familiar with this University of Columbia-published article about the power of prayer. But I have a few cites here if you're interested.

the opposing argument

the affirmative argument

the original article

It's a lot or reading, but basically, my point is that the patients recieving the in-vitro fertilization were not informed that they were being prayed for, yet, the outcome of the faith medicine was still a positive one. So in this case it could not have been the power of internal faith-healing alone, as in the placebo effect.

The professionals that stepped down after the publication of this article could either be seen as acquiescing to their shame for participating in a faurdulent study, or as martyrs for their cause. On this I'm not going to take any side, but I will say that, in recent years acting on religion, in the field of science, seems to generate a sort of professional stigma. If these researchers at columbia university hadn't abdicated their positions, they would have been degraded by any atheist colleagues they had (which are probably a majority). Personally, I can't see why science and religion have to be enemies in the world. But it's been a part of our heritage, so to speak, since the Scopes Monkey Trial.

My question though, is if these professionals knew the outcome of their inclusion in the study and its publication, why did they follow through with the whole thing? As rational people they must have known that the results of trying to bring religion into science would be disastrous. So, they either wanted to give people hope at the time of the 9/11 disaster, at the cost of their professinoal careers, or they wanted to try to open up a new field of study, to test the waters of reconciling faith and science. Either way, it was a noble form of martyrdom, even though they were consorting with frauds and criminals.

All this controversy however, is probably to keep people guessing and uncertain. Because if one side were proven and the other disproven it would ruin so many people's professional careers. If science is proven 100% correct, all the evangelists would be out in the cold, and if the theory of God were proven entirely correct, lots of scientists would have no purpose, expect only to further test the ways in which God made the universe to function.

Personally, I think the argument against this study is just trying to throw dirt into people's eyes. Just because one man had a history of fraud, doesn't mean he was commiting fraudulent actions in this study. There is room for it, but considering the one tainted individual was not in direct contact with the experiment, I don't see why his history should affect the fact that the study was proven a success.

The biggest problem, is that, due to this controversy, and the general stigma on religion in the scientific world, studies like these are probably not going to be repeated, just to maintain the status quo. If prayer studies were repeated and proven true, then what? Then man's influence on the world will increase tenfold. The population might skyrocket due to miracle pregnancy, which, in these times, would be highly unfavorable. And you'd have people organizing prayer groups to makes the Yankees win the world series, as well as a conflicting prayer group to make the Yankees lose. And after all, since we are only human, this would probably erupt in violence. And considering the common stance that God is all-forgiving, what does it matter if you break someone's jaw in a pre-game prayer-incited riot. As of now there are already enough silly-sports related riots and conflicts. Adding prayer into the mix would only create more problems. And this is only one aspect of the world ruled by prayer. There would probably be positive as wll as negative outcomes, and the only way to judge which wouldoutweigh the other would be to try it, which, in the current way of the world, is not going to happen.

On the Cosmic scale, though, science cannot explain the beginning of all existence. All theory states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, so either we are dumb in assuming that what exists must have been created, or the statement must be qualified to include the phrase, "...by any known or human means." Really, it's impossible to judge whether what exists does or doesn't need a creator. But going back far enough, every system breaks down. If God created the universe and the laws that govern it, what created God and the laws that govern him and his universe, and most importantly, can God choose to break these laws since he made them, which would be required for the beginning of all things. Obviously there must be some divine entity that has always been and always will be. That could be the Universe which needs no creator, or God who needs no creator and created the universe.

Then there's the cell theory, of which one of the prime components is that "All cells come from pre-existing cells" This is another scientific theory that breaks down at the point of origin. Granted, with the size of the universe, the probability that the components of a cell would all come together in an environment in which it could survive is undeniably, slim, but still present. Science has yet to prove whether life, when given it's proper resources, is destined to happen, will always happen, or whether it was all an accident. Either may, most forms of life affect their environments in ways that are detrimental to their own well-being. Bacteria do not implement population control, thus they use up all their resources quickly, and die. The same trend is seemingly apparent in humans. However, the commentary on this phenomena could swing either way.

One could say that God made everything impermanent, because he himself is permanent and he created his antithesis in order to make existence, or himself, feel complete, as well as to possibly entertain or enlighten himself, or to get off on his own power. Basically, I think God is either a psychological necessity, or not having god is equally a necessity, depending on the type of person you are. God is always a father figure. And people who believe in god, tend to affiliate his nature with that of their fathers. To quote Fight Club, "Our fathers were our models for God." People with neglegent fathers believe in a neglegent God, and people With loving fathers believe in a loving God. Liekwise, people with no fathers are more likely to believe in no god. I have no citing to prove this, and it's not 100% accurate, but it is basically an observable trend wherever one goes.

The fore-fathers of our countries were deists, who believed that God made everything and left it to its own devices. Yet the hand of historical authorship, perhaps the intervention of God, seems apparent in many places, IF...you want to see it that way. Many of those same fore-fathers that disbelieved in the hand of providence died on July Fourth, independence day. This shows that either God has a twisted sense of humor, or the fore-fathers created this phenomenon, by discretely commiting suicide, in order to make themselves or the country seem more divine, to add an air of profoundness to USA, just like the theory of Manifest Destiny [which came true by the way]. Because to me this seems like more than a coincidence. And history is full of these anomolous twists of fate.

SUMMING IT ALL UP. Because the universe exists and because science cannot explain everything, It is just as likely that what created life, the unviverse and everything, was a conscious entity with a purpose---just as likely as it is that it all happened accidentally without purpose. I choose to believe in a God because of personal experience [prayer and result] and the shape of my personality. But there are many who go through life, entirely godless and seem to do fine without him.

The power of faith and prayer has been shown in many circumstances, whether it involves a god or not. But for some reason, I like to feel that existence has a purpose, that it's not just a bunch of trash flung together that spawned the first organic atoms into life, and that God is there observing and acting for those who call to him.

I'm not claiming that the Bible is 100% correct, nor that it is the one path to God. It was written by men, several men, often with conflicing opinions, and thus it's just a book with a bunch of moral codes and cushions for the weak or damaged soul. And if God exists, he probably wants us to have choice (seeing that we do) including the choice to believe in him or not. I'm not purporting eternal ****ation for those who don't believe, nor eternal salvation for those who do. Because if a human were conscious for eternity, with all his memories intact, wouldn't he feel that all existence is pointless, since anything he does is only a fragment of forever, where all pleasures would be jaded and triumphs worn and rotten. Even playing Smash for all eternity :) with continually changing opponents would leave one hungry for something more. Would it not.

[sorry if your eyes are dead or your brain feels like it's on fire, but big topics inspire big posts]

[P.S. WHAT! d4mnation is censored in the debate hall? Pah!]
 

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Crimson King said:
The bible was completed in the 1500s. Not the 1960s. I really don't know where you got that number from.
I just kinda threw a number out there but my point was that he could have been an average person but through 1 1/2 milliniums of just telling the story by word of mouth it was exaggerated a little each and by the time the bible was published the story was probably told as if he was magical.
 

Crimson King

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I still haven't had the time to go through Resting Fox's argument, so I will edit this when I get home.

I'll reply to BG23 too.
 

nin10do_revolution

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I do think that the placebo treatment, as R_F stated, is a matter of faith, but not necessarily faith in God. Even though God does play a small part in life.

As Crimson King said, the Bible is ripping off stories from other religons, such as the great flood, which I have seen in the Ancient Greek stories as well. But, I do think that the 10 commandments are the ultimate basis on God. A higher being such as God would not convey, or have others convey all the truths of biblical times, so I would not expect all of the Bible to be true.

Basically, God has laid out the 10 commandments, and he has laid out a basic way that he WANTS you to live life. God has given us free will, so I expect that we should be able to use it. I use my free will to belive in God, but not to let him rule all of my decisions. This is my point.

(P.S. CRIMSON KING, AM I BEING A GOOD DEBATER? JUST SO I KNOW :) )
 

Liquid Entropy

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Resting_Fox said:
Many, MANY words
Lord willing, I will come back to your post while not at pre-occupied at work. I'll print it out and read it start to finish. I was thinking of being silly and logging in as "God" and saying something clever, but I decided against it.

I remember being very young, and God being the most logical thing in the Universe. Why? Because here we are. It sounds trite, I know. Short of "deus ex machina", somethings do not naturally come from nothing, and here we are, talking about it.

I think what may be more pressing and pertinant to us is "Does God relate to us, personally". I'd say the experiential knowledge of God is a far more relevant question question, and one more likely to provide satisfactory answers. As if God has nothing to do except exist, waiting to be proven. Percieving God's movement in life and interest in me has been my preoccupation.

I'm just saying, is all.
 

Crimson King

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That's what I can't accept, LE. God has to exist because we are here. That's way too foolish and ignorant for me.

The wealth of knowledge we have on the being that created us is a book filled with hypocrisies and errors.

Here is a reply Resting Fox

Resting_Fox said:
I can't see why science and religion have to be enemies in the world. But it's been a part of our heritage, so to speak, since the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Not entirely true. Religion and science have been enemies for centuries. When Galilao ( I suck at spelling names) say the Earth revolved around the sun, he was called a heretic and put under house arrest by the church. Most other men of science at this time were subject to persecution by religion including crucifixions, hangings, burnings, and other means of torture. This was just accepted because man wanted to believe God created everything and not have to worry, but science shook that idea up. As time progressed, man became more accepting to outside ideas. Proof of solar system revolving the sun, the earth not being flat, or that we came from other creatures started to change people's opinions. The Scopes Monkey Trials was just one of many different elements that caused the acceptance of science. Now, Religion is taking it turn in being persecuted scientifically, but instead of hangings and burnings we are presented with proof that they aren't as infalliable as they claim. This is more damaging to a religion than anything death would be.
 

nin10do_revolution

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CK, as I hope you know, most people who believe in God do not do so because "we are here". Actually, I like to mix science and religion together to form my opinons on such matters. I do think humans evolved, but I think also that God created each and every step of evolution. also, I think that there was a Big Bang, but it was God creating the universe in an explosion, posibly the let there be light theory. Honestly, I dont think I can win here, but I stand by my faith. If you continue to bae your non-faith solely on the fact that the Bible is the "biggest" proof of God's existence, then continue to do so. I just know, from personal experiences, that God is somewhere, maybe not a magical man in the sky, but he is some sort of enigma, some sort of higher being, that may walk among us, or rule form the heavens. I know all my posts may sound like "God is real, god is real," but I am trying to convey my point in a way in which you can understand, if not agree. Religion, especially something as this, is very touchy. I dont want to seem like some sort of evangelist, but God is watching. and I am just trying to make sure that he knows that I wil stand by Him, and my beliefs until the day I die. I'm done.
 

snex

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strong atheism with respect to a god X is the position that X definitely does not exist. people often criticize strong atheism due to confidence despite a lack of all knowledge. however, these criticisms miss the point. strong atheism is not based on evidential arguments, but rather on epistomological arguments.

for example, if i were to claim that i could draw an object with all the properties of a circle and all the properties of a square at the same time, you would not need perfect knowledge to know that i was lying. your confidence is not based on a presence or absence of evidence; it is based on the fact that my claim contains internal contradictions.

likewise, strong atheism is based on the fact that any sensible description of "god" contains internal contradictions. "god" is not even a coherent concept. for this discussion, i am assuming the classical omnimax god of monotheism. other god-concepts may in fact be coherent, and we must remain agnostic as to their existence until evidence is given.

many conflicts arise when we examine the characteristics of god. for example, god is claimed to be omniscient and a free agent, but as the following formal argument shows, these two are in conflict.

P1) omniscience is the possession of all knowledge, including knowledge of all future events.
P2) a free agent is an agent that can choose between two or more different actions given a situation.
P3) an agent that possesses knowledge of all future events necessarily knows his own future choices. (from P1)
P4) an agent that knows his own future choices does not have the ability to make a choice outside the set of choices he already knows he will make. (from P3)
C1) an agent that has omniscience cannot be a free agent. (P2 & P4 are negations of each other)
C2) therefore, god must either not be omniscient, or god must not be a free agent. (from C1)
C3) therefore, god as defined cannot exist. (from C2)

many proofs exactly like these can be derived from omnimax characteristics, showing how such a god simply cannot exist.
 

nin10do_revolution

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That makes a lot of sense, actually, that is the best atheist argument I have ever heard. Hm. Makes you think...


But, the point of God is that he is the creator of such things as free-will, omnisence, and knowledge, so he has the right to distort these menial concepts you speak of. For example, if I wasGod, since I have power over evrything, including the concept of omnisence and such, I could just as easily use my power to change such to fit my needs. You are using human-like, and not god-like qualities. Omnisence is a human characteristic, as the omnisent point of view in a story. God can control everything, basically. He basically needs not to figure out his fate or decisions, as he has already made the big decisions of eternity. we are just, after all, human. and unless I get evidence that God is NOT real, and I mean physical, or true blue EVIDENCE, then my mind is set. You know why you cant prove there is no God? Cuz he wont let you.
 

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nin10do_revolution said:
That makes a lot of sense, actually, that is the best atheist argument I have ever heard. Hm. Makes you think...


But, the point of God is that he is the creator of such things as free-will, omnisence, and knowledge, so he has the right to distort these menial concepts you speak of. For example, if I wasGod, since I have power over evrything, including the concept of omnisence and such, I could just as easily use my power to change such to fit my needs. You are using human-like, and not god-like qualities. Omnisence is a human characteristic, as the omnisent point of view in a story. God can control everything, basically. He basically needs not to figure out his fate or decisions, as he has already made the big decisions of eternity. we are just, after all, human. and unless I get evidence that God is NOT real, and I mean physical, or true blue EVIDENCE, then my mind is set. You know why you cant prove there is no God? Cuz he wont let you.
if youre willing to throw out logic in order to hold onto your belief in god, then evidence wont change your mind either. and denying logic means its impossible to even have a fruitful conversation on the matter. you are essentially admitting that your mind is closed on the subject.

besides, if god doesnt exist, how can there be evidence that he doesnt exist? there is no such thing as evidence for the non-existence of things that dont exist. the lack of evidence for their existence is all we could ever have, and theres certainly a lack of evidence for god.
 

nin10do_revolution

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Its not that my mind is closed on the matter, but by the way you are talking, you seem to be using logical theories to hold on to the fact that you dont believe in God. Your logic is very good, but it is also shrouded by a wall of stubborness. If you must make us think in order to convince us that there is no God, then maybe your mind is closed on it as well.

Also, there is a way to find evidence for the lack of what is not real. for example, unicorns are not real because no one has EVER seen one. And Santa Claus is not real becuase of a mathematical equation that I wont get into now. But, anyway as you can see, people have come forward with visions and miracles of God. And also, all/most cultures have a concept of God or a higher being. So if you must be so right about the non-existance of a God, then tell me where and how the concept of religion came from. Was it some old fool who nede something to do? was it a tribe of neanderthals who went berserk and came up with a crazy concept of some magical man in the sky? No.

Before you judge on whether I am not accepting logic on my presentation to you all about God, why dont you take the time to learn about religion yourself? Becuase you can never understand the true concept of God until you know far into the matter. My mind is an open book, and I am willing to accept all logic from anyone here. But, how dare you tell me that I dont want to hear what you have to say! You dont know me, or anything about me, so dont go pushing your "logic" i my face and calling me closed-minded until you do! I cant stand others who try to say that I am closed-minded because I have my reasons fr what I say and do. I stand by my prowesses, and I choose to do what I think is right.

Then again, I cant and refuse to try to force or educate you in my beleifs. i know many atheists who may not believe in God, but at least they believe in having a soul and going to an afterlife. I see nothing wrong with atheism, but strong atheism is just honestly, and truly ignorant. Hm. I may not be closed minded, but I am stubborn. Believe in THAT, playa. I am now going to sit out of this argument for a while,as I have seen and heard just about enough. I REALLY doubt I can win, becuase I KNOW FOR SURE that there is many other atheists out on this website. So, in the end, I am going to get jumped on by 5 or 6 ppl, I'll start cussing and being rude and ignorant, and get kicked. I'll check on this regularly, but In my best interests, I choose not to post for a while. I will prefer to see what your "logic" is for this one.
 

Crimson King

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[quote- Nin]for example, unicorns are not real because no one has EVER seen one. And Santa Claus is not real becuase of a mathematical equation that I wont get into now.[/quote]

So, because no one has seen it, it doesn't exist? People believe in bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster and some claim to have seen them, but they have been disproven. People never heard of outter space until a century or two ago and it existed. Can you see atoms right now? Well that exists too.

But, no one has seen God. They only see a bright light or whatever their mind tells them to interpret as a God. Unless they seen some ultra powerful being creating something in front of them, there is no proof that a talking light right before death is God. Miracles can be reduced to the placebo effect, so that rules out that logic.
 

snex

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Its not that my mind is closed on the matter, but by the way you are talking, you seem to be using logical theories to hold on to the fact that you dont believe in God. Your logic is very good, but it is also shrouded by a wall of stubborness. If you must make us think in order to convince us that there is no God, then maybe your mind is closed on it as well.
my mind certainly is closed to beings that cannot logically exist. my mind is closed on the "2+2=4" matter. my mind is closed on the "A=pi*r^2" matter. if you have evidence for a god that is logically possible, however, present it and lets see how it stands the rigorous tests of the scientific method.

Also, there is a way to find evidence for the lack of what is not real. for example, unicorns are not real because no one has EVER seen one. And Santa Claus is not real becuase of a mathematical equation that I wont get into now.
this is silly. unicorns arent real because no one has ever seen one? what if they just hide whenever somebody comes by? what if they can make themselves invisible?

santa isnt real because of a mathematical equation? i can apply the same equation to god, but you wouldnt deny his existence because of it.

face it, you have no justification other than your emotions to continue believing in god. youre perfectly happy to apply logical inferences to other things because you have no emotional attachments to them, but you refuse to apply the same standards to god.

Before you judge on whether I am not accepting logic on my presentation to you all about God, why dont you take the time to learn about religion yourself?
im a former catholic, and i would bet $100 that i know more about religion than you do. care to start a new thread on any particular aspect of religion? pick any topic youd like.

But, how dare you tell me that I dont want to hear what you have to say! You dont know me, or anything about me, so dont go pushing your "logic" i my face and calling me closed-minded until you do! I cant stand others who try to say that I am closed-minded because I have my reasons fr what I say and do. I stand by my prowesses, and I choose to do what I think is right.
But, the point of God is that he is the creator of such things as free-will, omnisence, and knowledge, so he has the right to distort these menial concepts you speak of. For example, if I wasGod, since I have power over evrything, including the concept of omnisence and such, I could just as easily use my power to change such to fit my needs. You are using human-like, and not god-like qualities. Omnisence is a human characteristic, as the omnisent point of view in a story. God can control everything, basically. He basically needs not to figure out his fate or decisions, as he has already made the big decisions of eternity. we are just, after all, human. and unless I get evidence that God is NOT real, and I mean physical, or true blue EVIDENCE, then my mind is set. You know why you cant prove there is no God? Cuz he wont let you.
youve already admitted your position. i dont need to make assumptions about you. when it comes to god, you dont accept logic. one who does not accept logical reasoning cannot be reasoned with. as i said in my previous post, by abandoning logic, you abandon all rational discourse on god, and any position at all becomes valid. to deny logic is to deny the very thing that enables us to have meaningful discussions on a subject.
 

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my mind certainly is closed to beings that cannot logically exist. my mind is closed on the "2+2=4" matter. my mind is closed on the "A=pi*r^2" matter. if you have evidence for a god that is logically possible, however, present it and lets see how it stands the rigorous tests of the scientific method.
Other than the bible there aren`t other sources which IMO isn`t accurate as I`ve argued in previous posts. The fact is NO ONE reading this...has been at the appropiate time period to witness wether or not this is true. So really there would have to be a time machine to be possible to gather any further evidence about this.
 

snex

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Begolfer33 said:
Other than the bible there aren`t other sources which IMO isn`t accurate as I`ve argued in previous posts. The fact is NO ONE reading this...has been at the appropiate time period to witness wether or not this is true. So really there would have to be a time machine to be possible to gather any further evidence about this.
how about a bonafide miracle? matthew 17:20 says "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

lets see some mountains moved. heck ill settle for a small rock moved by faith.
 

pokemonmaster01

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And also, all/most cultures have a concept of God or a higher being. So if you must be so right about the non-existance of a God, then tell me where and how the concept of religion came from. Was it some old fool who nede something to do? was it a tribe of neanderthals who went berserk and came up with a crazy concept of some magical man in the sky? No.
Yes. In a way. Primitive human reasoning skills led to the concept of the supernatural to explain natural events. The ideas were refined over time, certain things thrown out, and Christianity was born.
 

blazedaces

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Resting_Fox said:
In this circumstance, the easy way out would be to call agnosticism and just say, You can't prove God's existence one way or the other, which is essentially true. However, there are certain phenomena that seem to indicate the existence of a god, if not some other form of higher spiritual entity.

We all know about the placebo effect. This is probably the most common form of faith medicine. If you need a briefing, the placebo effect is when a patient is given a pill or treatment that has no biological or chemical cure, then the patient is told it is a valid treatment, and consequently the patient is cured, presumably by his/her own faith in the cure. There are some arguments to the placebo effect, claiming that the faith only ups the bodies response to the problem and that no actual internal miracle takes place.

For example, say you have frequent headaches, and you go to the doctor about it. He gives you a placebo and tells you take them for your headaches. Then next time you have a headache, you take the pill and are relieved. Basically what happened biologically is that your idea of having a cure made your body increased its pain-blocking chemicals that would detect aching in the region of your head. But the question is WHY. Why doesn't the body naturally secrete the chemicals to numb the pain if it knows it is experiencing pain. Why can't a person cure a headache through bio-feedback, or self hypnosis. Obviously faith has some power over biological functions, and whether this is due to divine intervention is still left to personal opinion.
How in the world does the faith that medicine will work to heal you have to do with God?
Resting_Fox said:
I don't know if many of you are familiar with this University of Columbia-published article about the power of prayer. But I have a few cites here if you're interested.

the opposing argument

the affirmative argument

the original article

It's a lot or reading, but basically, my point is that the patients recieving the in-vitro fertilization were not informed that they were being prayed for, yet, the outcome of the faith medicine was still a positive one. So in this case it could not have been the power of internal faith-healing alone, as in the placebo effect.
The study was done with 100 people in one group and 99 in the other. Even if this study was done as was stated a statistical difference of 26% to 50% with a p value of .0013 isn’t valuable enough to prove anything. There’s too much random chance to decipher whether the prayer had anything to do with it. Why hasn’t this test been done again after so many years?

Resting_Fox said:
The professionals that stepped down after the publication of this article could either be seen as acquiescing to their shame for participating in a faurdulent study, or as martyrs for their cause. On this I'm not going to take any side, but I will say that, in recent years acting on religion, in the field of science, seems to generate a sort of professional stigma. If these researchers at columbia university hadn't abdicated their positions, they would have been degraded by any atheist colleagues they had (which are probably a majority). Personally, I can't see why science and religion have to be enemies in the world. But it's been a part of our heritage, so to speak, since the Scopes Monkey Trial.
Why should they have to “step down”, I mean quit, for a study if it was perfectly fine? Why did they refuse to answer questions about the study for so long? Why did one claim to only have been told of the study 6 months after it had been done? The other never answered any questions on the subject. The only person in contact with the supposed study was “Dr.” Lobo.
Resting_Fox said:
My question though, is if these professionals knew the outcome of their inclusion in the study and its publication, why did they follow through with the whole thing? As rational people they must have known that the results of trying to bring religion into science would be disastrous. So, they either wanted to give people hope at the time of the 9/11 disaster, at the cost of their professinoal careers, or they wanted to try to open up a new field of study, to test the waters of reconciling faith and science. Either way, it was a noble form of martyrdom, even though they were consorting with frauds and criminals.
This is unheard of for professionals to quit their job only because they brought a “legitimate” study into the realm of science. If the results were not incredibly discredited this would have been fine. Stop trying to blame the fact that it has anything to do with religion that the professors quit their jobs.
Resting_Fox said:
All this controversy however, is probably to keep people guessing and uncertain. Because if one side were proven and the other disproven it would ruin so many people's professional careers. If science is proven 100% correct, all the evangelists would be out in the cold, and if the theory of God were proven entirely correct, lots of scientists would have no purpose, expect only to further test the ways in which God made the universe to function.
Who cares? We as a people want to know the truth. That’s why we try to understand the universe around us. Scientists aren’t afraid of the answer.
Resting_Fox said:
Personally, I think the argument against this study is just trying to throw dirt into people's eyes. Just because one man had a history of fraud, doesn't mean he was commiting fraudulent actions in this study. There is room for it, but considering the one tainted individual was not in direct contact with the experiment, I don't see why his history should affect the fact that the study was proven a success.
Did you actually read your own source? He was the only one in contact with the actual study. He was recently sentenced to jail for stealing millions of dollars from the government and has a huge history of previous studies where he lied about the study’s source of information and he even “made up” an entire organization that never existed. Also, when I read Dr. Lobo, I thought he actually went to a university and received a doctorate degree. Don’t you understand that when it comes to statistics the source is everything? Should we just trust every idiot who comes up and says he did a study proving this and that?
Resting_Fox said:
The biggest problem, is that, due to this controversy, and the general stigma on religion in the scientific world, studies like these are probably not going to be repeated, just to maintain the status quo. If prayer studies were repeated and proven true, then what? Then man's influence on the world will increase tenfold. The population might skyrocket due to miracle pregnancy, which, in these times, would be highly unfavorable. And you'd have people organizing prayer groups to makes the Yankees win the world series, as well as a conflicting prayer group to make the Yankees lose. And after all, since we are only human, this would probably erupt in violence. And considering the common stance that God is all-forgiving, what does it matter if you break someone's jaw in a pre-game prayer-incited riot. As of now there are already enough silly-sports related riots and conflicts. Adding prayer into the mix would only create more problems. And this is only one aspect of the world ruled by prayer. There would probably be positive as wll as negative outcomes, and the only way to judge which wouldoutweigh the other would be to try it, which, in the current way of the world, is not going to happen.
The problem isn’t that religion has such a bad name, it’s that studies such as this are never proven true. It’s always faked. Also, if prayer affects the chances of IVF why should it affect the chances of anything else?
Resting_Fox said:
On the Cosmic scale, though, science cannot explain the beginning of all existence. All theory states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, so either we are dumb in assuming that what exists must have been created, or the statement must be qualified to include the phrase, "...by any known or human means." Really, it's impossible to judge whether what exists does or doesn't need a creator. But going back far enough, every system breaks down. If God created the universe and the laws that govern it, what created God and the laws that govern him and his universe, and most importantly, can God choose to break these laws since he made them, which would be required for the beginning of all things. Obviously there must be some divine entity that has always been and always will be. That could be the Universe which needs no creator, or God who needs no creator and created the universe.
Why do you throw away the possibility that matter/energy was never created or destroyed? Why must an entity exist or why must it exist forever? Just because that would prove god to you doesn’t make it so. There exist other possible explanations you just decided to ignore.
Resting_Fox said:
Then there's the cell theory, of which one of the prime components is that "All cells come from pre-existing cells" This is another scientific theory that breaks down at the point of origin. Granted, with the size of the universe, the probability that the components of a cell would all come together in an environment in which it could survive is undeniably, slim, but still present. Science has yet to prove whether life, when given it's proper resources, is destined to happen, will always happen, or whether it was all an accident. Either may, most forms of life affect their environments in ways that are detrimental to their own well-being. Bacteria do not implement population control, thus they use up all their resources quickly, and die. The same trend is seemingly apparent in humans. However, the commentary on this phenomena could swing either way.
Yet we already know that sometimes viruses can be exceptions to the first clause that all living things are made up of cells. Cell theory isn’t absolute and we know that.
Resting_Fox said:
One could say that God made everything impermanent, because he himself is permanent and he created his antithesis in order to make existence, or himself, feel complete, as well as to possibly entertain or enlighten himself, or to get off on his own power. Basically, I think God is either a psychological necessity, or not having god is equally a necessity, depending on the type of person you are. God is always a father figure. And people who believe in god, tend to affiliate his nature with that of their fathers. To quote Fight Club, "Our fathers were our models for God." People with neglegent fathers believe in a neglegent God, and people With loving fathers believe in a loving God. Liekwise, people with no fathers are more likely to believe in no god. I have no citing to prove this, and it's not 100% accurate, but it is basically an observable trend wherever one goes.
So you say that every person either wants god to exist… or… doesn’t? What was the point of saying that? What does God have to do with your father? I already know so many examples where this is not true. Why in the world would you come to this statistical conclusion?
 

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heh good job wading through all that nonsense. i wasnt even going to touch it.

i would like to add something about the fraudulent prayer study though. even if it were legitimate, it was poorly designed. they claimed they had a control group, but did they really? the point of a control group is to test a variable, in this case, prayer. so how did they know that the control group wasnt prayed for, for example by family or friends? odds are heavily in favor of such prayers being said. and if such prayers were said, then why the skewed results? does god not listen to the prayers of koreans?

the proper way to test prayer with a real control group would be to use animals that nobody normally prays about. 2 groups of rats for example. one group people would be told to pray for, the other group would be kept secret as the control.

in a related topic, faith healing has never been shown to work a single time. a great book on the subject is the faith healers by james randi.
 

ManaScrew

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Snex, I just wanted to call something to your attention. You rely heavily on logic being infallible, however, logic is currently breaking down in scientific experiments involving quantum theory. Scientists recently created particles that spun both clockwise and counterclockwise. This is metaphysically impossible and really belies reality as we know it. There have been numerous other examples of quantum absurdity, and i'm going to try to find some concrete links as well as some excerpts from "Longning for the Harmoincs." So, extending this more generally, if logic breaks down in certain cases, then we cannot extend it to disproving an omnipotent God.
 

snex

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ManaScrew said:
Snex, I just wanted to call something to your attention. You rely heavily on logic being infallible, however, logic is currently breaking down in scientific experiments involving quantum theory. Scientists recently created particles that spun both clockwise and counterclockwise. This is metaphysically impossible and really belies reality as we know it. There have been numerous other examples of quantum absurdity, and i'm going to try to find some concrete links as well as some excerpts from "Longning for the Harmoincs." So, extending this more generally, if logic breaks down in certain cases, then we cannot extend it to disproving an omnipotent God.
the results of scientific experiments have no bearing on the structure of logic. you are mistaken. logic is a method of abstract reasoning, like mathematics. when experiments appear to disobey math, it means that our mathematical model for the experiment is wrong, not that math is wrong.

you are also incorrect about particles that spin both counterclockwise and clockwise at the same time. quantum spin is not perfectly analogous to normal spin, so terms like "clockwise" have no meaning to quantum particles. scientists only call it spin because it represents rotational inertia of particles. the particle is not necessarily physically spinning. and no such particle has ever been made. you are either misunderstanding real quantum effects or making things up.

to summarize: you are wrong. logic does not break down and never will. even if it did, that would do more damage to your god than anything else. if we cant speak logically about god, then there is no meaning to the phrase "god exists" whatsoever.
 

snex

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the new york times lol!

hint: get your science from scientists, not journalists.

even if a particle can have more than one state of spin, it has nothing to do with what we commonly call spin in the normal world. particle spin is NOT the same thing. and again, this has NOTHING to do with logic or abstract reasoning. the physical world does not change logic.

to claim that "my reasoning is flawed" because i use logic is the most absurd thing anybody has ever said. logic is the only way of reasoning which is NOT flawed. if we throw logic out the door, then ANYTHING is reasonable and unreasonable at the same time. all statements lose their meaning in the absence of logic.

nothing you, the new york times, or even scientists, say will change that fact.

and i have no idea what "longing for the harmonics" is since google has zero results, but it sounds like quack pseudoscience. just because quantum mechanics disobeys what we call "common sense" does not mean its magical or somehow beyond logic. nothing in the physical world has ANYTHING to do with logic, because its ABSTRACT.

the same goes for math. no experiment ever will change the fact that 2+2=4.

edit: and heres the real science for you. notice how they dont make the elementary mistake made by the new york times.
 

ManaScrew

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Wow, someone sounds offended. Anyways, the New York Times article is citing scientists. And "Longing for the Harmonics" is a book written by Frank Wilczek (spelling?) a nobel laureate at MIT. The point is this, you are using logic to disprove an omnipotent being. Logic has proven not to hold in certain circumstances so it cannot be generalized to an omnipotent being.
 

snex

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Logic has proven not to hold in certain circumstances so it cannot be generalized to an omnipotent being.
no, it hasnt.

you do not even understand what logic is.

if you did, youd know that its impossible to "prove logic cannot hold" because youd have to use logic to do so!

btw, the book is "longing for the harmonies," and based on your rantings here, i doubt you even understand what you are reading. the fact that the quantum world displays weird and unexpected results has absolutely nothing to do with logic, and until you demonstrate that it does, you will continue to look foolish in here.

edit: i hope other readers will take note how manascrew has totally ignored the fact that the real science article disagrees with the new york times' representation of it. he probably didnt even read it.
 

ManaScrew

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Snex, I don't look foolish, and not once have I stooped to taking shots at you personally. As for me, I'm an MIT student, so I'm definitely not stupid. I put the evidence on the table, and I'm going to put more on, and you are electing to ignore it.
 

snex

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yeah what major? liberal arts?

seriously, you have no understanding of science or logic. its not a personal shot at you, its a fact based on your argumentation. since youre at MIT, ask ANY scientist or mathematician there whether or not quantum mechanics, or any science, disproves or even can disprove logic. they will ALL agree with me.

the fact is, an omnimax god is simply not a coherent concept and cannot exist. none of your red herrings about quantum mechanics will change that. if you can point to specific flaws in my argument, then do so. if you cannot, stop posting off topic. this thread is about the existence of god, not about quantum mechanics.
 

ManaScrew

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The book is "longing for the harmonies." As for me, I'm an EECS major. And it's a simple argument: You say that God is illogical and cannot exist. Quantum mechanics defies logic, so an omnipotent God can defy logic. BTW, my physics professor is the one who brought up the fact that since quantum mechanics defies logic, that other things can defy logic. And quit taking personal jabs at me, I'm not dumb.
 

snex

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quantum mechanics does NOT defy logic! how many times do i have to explain this to you? the happenings of the physical world have NOTHING TO DO WITH LOGIC. LOGIC IS AN ABSTRACT REASONING SYSTEM.

if you continue to post off-topic despite my repeated corrections of your errors, i am going to start reporting your posts to the mods.

edit: ok since i cant sleep, im going to give you a free lesson in logic (not-god only knows why an mit student in eecs needs one. perhaps you should request a refund).

logic is a formal system of reasoning, whose purpose is to derive the truth values of unknown propositions from propositions whose truth values we know. formal logic is based on 3 axioms. (symbols explained at end of post)

axiom 1 - law of identity

the law of identity states that all propositions necessarily imply themselves. this is equivalent to its homologous law in mathematics. shown in symbolic form:

A <-> A

axiom 2 - law of non-contradiction

the law of non-contradiction states that if a proposition is true, its negation must be false, and if a proposition is false, its negation must be true. shown in symbolic form:

~(A & ~A)

axiom 3 - law of excluded middle

the law of the excluded middle states that either a proposition or its negation must be true. shown in symbolic form:

A | ~A

all other theorems of logic can be built from these 3 axioms. as long as these 3 axioms hold, and we certainly have no reason to believe that they do not, then logic is a valid system of reasoning.

the problem with your rantings on quantum mechanics is not that logic fails, but that you fail to apply it properly.

for example, imagine a clock's minute hand. the hand has 3 possible states: moving clockwise, moving counterclockwise, and not moving. we will represent them as follows:

A <-> the minute hand is moving clockwise
B <-> the minute hand is moving counter-clockwise
C <-> the minute hand is stationary

these form our initial propositions, and with some observation we can form new propositions that relate them to each other.

if the minute hand is moving clockwise, then it is not moving counter-clockwise and it is not stationary. symbolic form:

A <-> (~B & ~C)

similarly:

B <-> (~A & ~C)
C <-> (~A & ~B)

we now have an accurate model of the clock's minute hand from which we can build further propositions solely by deducing them from our initial identity propositions and our observation propositions. the 6 propositions represent a full model of the minute hand's movement (assuming you dont break the clock and the pieces fly away).

we can do the same thing for particles. particles have a property that we have decided to call "spin" because they share some things in common with macro-sized spinning objects. we can measure a particle's spin about an axis and declare it to be positive or negative. for this example i will use the x axis.

A <-> the particle is spinning positively in the x direction
B <-> the particle is spinning negatively in the x direction

there is no C to represent zero spin because particles that have spin never have zero spin. as in the previous example, we should take observations and formulate new propositions based on them. however, quantum mechanics poses a problem. the act of observation changes the state of the particle. modern quantum physics states that prior to observation, the particle occupies a state of "superposition," or it exists in both states at once. however, once we make the observation, the particle takes one direction and stays there. so with quantum mechanics in mind, here are our observational propositions.

C <-> we have observed the particle
D <-> {(C & A) X (C & B)} | (~C & A & B)

in english, D translates to: if we have observed the particle, then it must be either spinning positively in the x direction or spinning negatively in the x direction, but if we have not observed the particle, then it is spinning both positively and negatively in the x direction.

as anybody can see, logic is never violated in this system. the problem only arises when we attempt to apply our system of clock hands spinning to a fundamentally different feature of particles that only resembles spinning.

the moral of the story is, if you think something is violating logic, the problem lies with YOU.

symbols explained:

<-> - equivalence. A <-> B means that if A is true, then B is also true, and if A is false, then B is also false.
~ - negation. ~A means that if A is true, ~A is false, and if A is false, ~A is true.
& - logical AND. A & B means that if A and B are true, A & B is also true. if either A or B or both of them are false, then A & B is false.
| - logical OR. A | B means that if either A or B or both of them are true, then A | B is true. if both A and B are false, then A | B is false.
X - logical XOR. A X B means that if either A or B are true, then A X B is true. if both A and B are true or false, then A X B is false.
 

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well, I gotta agree with snex, logic is something we made, it's abstract. It has nothing to do with any things or objects in the physical world.

P1) omniscience is the possession of all knowledge, including knowledge of all future events.
P2) a free agent is an agent that can choose between two or more different actions given a situation.
P3) an agent that possesses knowledge of all future events necessarily knows his own future choices. (from P1)
P4) an agent that knows his own future choices does not have the ability to make a choice outside the set of choices he already knows he will make. (from P3)
C1) an agent that has omniscience cannot be a free agent. (P2 & P4 are negations of each other)
C2) therefore, god must either not be omniscient, or god must not be a free agent. (from C1)
C3) therefore, god as defined cannot exist. (from C2)
Omniscience can not be the knowledge of futur event just because futur doesn't excist. Time does not excist, it's something we made, but it isn't a touchable object(you know what I mean, I find it hard to explain). It's not like we live our lives through a predetermined path..
 

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Riciardos said:
Omniscience can not be the knowledge of futur event just because futur doesn't excist. Time does not excist, it's something we made, but it isn't a touchable object(you know what I mean, I find it hard to explain). It's not like we live our lives through a predetermined path..

The future not having happened yet is irrelevant. Omniscience is knowing everything, if you know everything you know what choices people are going to make therefore you know what will happen in the future as well.
 

blazedaces

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ManaScrew, I wonder, do you think every time someone undertook an experiment that undermined logic he assumed that logic was wrong rather then his use of logic?

When it was first supposed that the speed of light was constant it would mean that light off of an object moving relative to you would measure the same speed if you measured it or someone on the object measured it. This is "illogical" from a certain standpoint, but from this the Special Theory of Relativity was born.

Becquerel thought that a certain energy emitted from certain materials was brought about by absorption of the sun. When one day the sun was not out and he left the material near the phosphorous plates by accident, a pattern emerged anyway, it seemed "illogical" that the energy was coming not from the sun but from the material itself.

The general theory of relativity implies that massless energy should be affected by "gravity", the curvature of space time and even when it was observed at a solar eclipse this theory seemed "illogical".

None of these would suppose that logic is fallible, but rather that our use of it is in some way. We strive to further understand the world around us using a tool we know to be unbreakable, so to speak. We will never doubt it nor would we waver from its side. To do this would destroy every possible discovery ever made. I believe in time even these situations we deem "illogical" will be common knowledge.

Also, please don't wave your "title" in our faces hoping it would give you respect. That's the point of these forums, that we are anonymous and should only gain respect by the quality of the posts we make, not by our names or status in society. You sir, by bringing up the unnecessary only further diminish that particular source. Another words, now I lose faith in MIT a lot more then having gained respect for you.
 

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Jimayo said:
The future not having happened yet is irrelevant. Omniscience is knowing everything, if you know everything you know what choices people are going to make therefore you know what will happen in the future as well.
But you can't have knowledge of something that doesn't excist. A 5th dimension doesn't excist right? We can't have any knowledge of that. Futur doesn't excist, therefore you can't include futur decisions in omniscience.

EDIT: ok 4th dimension was a bad example, I changed it to 5th, lol.
 
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