Does CF have an advantage over pika?

[_kSo_]

All right i'm going to open up a new topic here kuz meow closed the other one about CF.

So my friend (pika/kirby user) always tells me that CF has advantage over pikachu. I wouldn't agree with him (being a CF player who always get pwned by pika when im off the edge). I always tell him that pika has high priority over CF as well as a much much better recovery, hence being able to chase him out easily.

he then tells me that "well if I get grabbed by you, it's instant 80% or death." Ok well you can mind game someone so they wont grab you, but no matter how strong your mind games are, CF can't really do much off the edge except DI and if pika will just run off the edge and do uair, jump, nair, i'm finished. Easily.

Now the debate is that he tells me CF is the top tier in the game, whereas I say that pika is the top tier in the game.

 

[Box_of_Fox]

I think you're right. CF has an advantage away from edges when Pikachu around 0% and is subject to combos, but once Pikachu gets above 80, DIing away from the combos become much easier, meaning that CF has to win on single-strikes more often.

Pikachu can edge-guard kill easily when CF is roughly 30% or more, and really good pika's can edgeguard kill from 0% (the falling nair --> uair combo).

Of course I can't do any of this anymore, the library that I visit replaced their keyboards with some stupid logitech versions a month ago. Can't DI well, and foremost my z-cancelling when to a COMPLETE halt and I had to reteach myself everything. Already the keyboard loses the edge over controllers b/c of tilts, shuairs and falling uairs, but now this?

Did horribly these past two weeks and today I almost lost to hatchu! HATCHU! *cry* But I will NEVER get a controller.

Back on topic, I think the recovery is what makes CF not top tier. My friend and I were testing out Mario's 0 -> Death double-Dair edgeguard (when you backthrow a character off the edge, short-hop over them and catch them in a dair before they up-B or jump over you... then continue with a second dair, Down-B, Jump, Up-B recovery. Works like a charm :D), and it works particularly well against CF and Link. I expected it to also work on DK but people can up-B frenzy and save themselves.

It especially DIDN'T work on pikachu, who was not only able to up-B save himself, but return to the edge faster than mario and THEN edge-guard him.

 

[_kSo_]

LOL dude i'm telling you, pika is like freaking S tier

 

[Rupus]

I closed the last thread about CF because it wasn't a thread about CF. If it was, it would have remained open.

 

[Box_of_Fox]

Meow did u check ur messages?

Edit: "S" tier? If ur being funny I can't tell. I just had wine ;_;

 

[Umbrasquall]

Wine is noob. I just had an entire handle of Barcardi, went clubbing for 3 hours, had a few more shots and drinks there, AND I have work tomorrow morning.

Anyway back on topic. I think CF and Pika both are somewhere in the high tier, but pika probably has an advantage over Falcon because of the superior moveset and recovery.

 

[Box_of_Fox]

Tiers are honestly a waste of time. People should just play what is fun and stop obsessive-compulsive categorizing.

And I'm not a hypocrite :D

 

[_kSo_]

boxoffox i feel the same way as you do about this tiers business, but valoem argues with me and m3gav01t all the time how falcon has advantage over pika and I just want to see what the rest of the community thinks. gerry you'd better be reading this.

also, I wasn't kidding about "S" tier; I play street fighter too and the japanese categorize their tiers by lettering, so
Top = S
Upper = A
Middle = B
Lower= C
Bottom = D

i actually think if we were to rank this way, pika would be "SS"

 

[Keige]

You mean rainbow V for Viewtiful. Stupid Viewtiful Joe corrupting my mind!

 

[M3tr01D]

I like fighting pika with falcon.

 

[cmasterchoe]

There are situational advantages that CF has over pika, but on the whole pika has more advantages than CF. Given that CF is a heavy player, pika can heavily combo. But going up against a good CF as a pika player myself, is always a fun challenge.

 

[m3gav01t]

i think it's a pretty even match up. i mean, falcon can do things over the edge to make it MUCH more difficult for pika to edgeguard. for instance, ffing at weird times, uairing, using up-B early or late and catching pika in it, and most importantly, di-ing into the ledge if pika uses fsmash or dsmash or whatever to edgeguard means that at least 50% of the time, maybe even most of the time, you'll manage to catch pika with an up-b and save yourself, especially if you're at low damage. granted, pika still is a hell of a lot harder to edgeguard, but i feel like falcon might have a slight advantage on the level itself. it really comes down to how good the pika is at not getting grabbed, and how good the falcon is at recovering and mindgaming pika into grabs.

either way, i agree with metroid. i think it's fun to fight pikas with my falcon.

 

[valoem]

boxoffox i feel the same way as you do about this tiers business, but valoem argues with me and m3gav01t all the time how falcon has advantage over pika and I just want to see what the rest of the community thinks. gerry you'd better be reading this.

also, I wasn't kidding about "S" tier; I play street fighter too and the japanese categorize their tiers by lettering, so
Top = S
Upper = A
Middle = B
Lower= C
Bottom = D

i actually think if we were to rank this way, pika would be "SS"

I like SF classification much more than Smash. The letters look a lot better one. But my favorite is calling "friendlies" casual instead cause that makes a lot more sense. Tournament play and money matches can be friendly but definately not causal.

 

[tigerbombz]

Pikachu FTW...if ur cf is soo good..u shoudl play my pikachu

 

[_kSo_]

Hey, look whos finally on the boards!

*points at joe and gerry*

yea gerry if you didn't notice, this topic is about you and your argument. But that's true what m3gav01t meantioned is that when it comes right down to it, it's about who has the better mind games

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It matters who's falcon and whos pikachu
The best pikachu can beat the best falcon (aka isai is the best player of ssb, and pikachu is his main)
One of the best falcon on kailera boomfan can beat many pikachus

pikachu v falcon
For pikachu: Higher priority aerials, death combos from higher percentages and lower, better recovery, great throws
For falcon: worse recovery, good 0 to death at lower percentages

I think the matchup can go either way, but if falcon isn't able to kill pikachu at lower percentages, he will have a disadvantage

Also you have to remember about the stages
Hyrule: falcon slightly (more room so easier to recover)
Dreamland: pikachu slightly (less room, a lot of platforms)
Mushroom Kingdom: pikachu BY FAR (shouldn't have to explain this)
Yoshi Island: either way (a lot of room but many platforms)
Brainstar: falcon, a lot of room, falcon is heavier so acid doesn't kill as easily)
Saffron City: Falcon slightly (a lot of room, pikachu's recovery is made weaker by certain death zones (the ones that have walls on both sides)

 

[_kSo_]

It matters who's falcon and whos pikachu

Well, yea. lol. But im not talking about the players in general, but rather the character themselves. I've come to the conclusion that there is a specific way to fight every character. While some are similar in style, fighting pikachu requires a different way of fighting. I'll have to see how it is and document it. But to this point i would have to say it's a pretty even match up.

 

[cmasterchoe]

Also you have to remember about the stages
Hyrule: falcon slightly (more room so easier to recover)
Dreamland: pikachu slightly (less room, a lot of platforms)

I take issue with your analysis of the two most significant stages (other ones are not played as much, so i won't waste my breath).

Hyrule: Even matchup (or pika slightly)
falcon gets to use his stairway to death (platforms in middle), but because there is so much room, a pikachu who falls into a CF combo has a better chance of surviving. Because pika has such high manueverability in the air

Dreamland: falcon
All the platforms work to falcon's advantage because it allows him to keep uair juggling. It makes it very easy to connect combos. Also the shorter stage means that captain falcon is that much closer to the edges, meaning he gets to use his deadly dair that much more. (the dair is 50% of the time the finisher of any z2d combo) If falcon is in a huge stage like hyrule, he is much further away from edge, limiting his ability to use dair.

 

[_kSo_]

you must also take into consideration that this is also falcon's weakness, for if pika throws him, there is that much more chance that he will be off the edge and be edge guarded. limits his mobility. however it does work to his combo'ing advantage

 

[cmasterchoe]

So then maybe the easiness to edgeguard falcon on dreamland + combo-ing advantage = 0.... so then we are exactly where we effing started... square one. loffle.

 

[_kSo_]

Now that I think about it, z2d combo ability for falcon outweighs the fact that pika can throw him off and edge guard. The fact of the matter is, if the pika gets grabbed by falcon, instant 80%/death. if the pika grabs falcon, he still has a chance of coming back (esp at 0%). so i dunno. i don't like fighting pika/kirby but theres a lot of them online and on console. so i guess i just have to practice my match ups

 

[m3gav01t]

falcon has a huge advantage on dreamland.

 

[cmasterchoe]

hehe kso, if we fight, it'll be pika v falcon... dibs on hyrule.

 

[_kSo_]

word. that'd be awesome

 

[valoem]

It matters who's falcon and whos pikachu
The best pikachu can beat the best falcon (aka isai is the best player of ssb, and pikachu is his main)
One of the best falcon on kailera boomfan can beat many pikachus

pikachu v falcon
For pikachu: Higher priority aerials, death combos from higher percentages and lower, better recovery, great throws
For falcon: worse recovery, good 0 to death at lower percentages

I think the matchup can go either way, but if falcon isn't able to kill pikachu at lower percentages, he will have a disadvantage

Also you have to remember about the stages
Hyrule: falcon slightly (more room so easier to recover)
Dreamland: pikachu slightly (less room, a lot of platforms)
Mushroom Kingdom: pikachu BY FAR (shouldn't have to explain this)
Yoshi Island: either way (a lot of room but many platforms)
Brainstar: falcon, a lot of room, falcon is heavier so acid doesn't kill as easily)
Saffron City: Falcon slightly (a lot of room, pikachu's recovery is made weaker by certain death zones (the ones that have walls on both sides)

This is wrong on almost all levels.

Pika is the one the need more room. CF in general has a huge advantage on smaller stages because of his speed and grab combos. With good DI falcon is much more difficult to edge guard. Falcon can still easily kill pikachu at high percentage because of his up air priority.

Hyrule: i think its slight falcon advantage however this is arguebly an even battle.
Dreamland: its no contest for pika he'll get ***** one grab and his dead. falcon can also get good DI
Kongo: Falcon small stage nowhere for pika to run if he gets comboed
Saffron: Slight advantage falcon pika has some room to run
Peach's Castle: Advantage Pika, this is the only stage pika has an advantage. Pika has room to run and no wall DI for falcon and no edges to grab.
Mushroom Kingdom: who cares its a banned stage
Yoshi Island: Banned
Planet Zebas: Banned
Sector Z: Banned

 

[mercenaries]

Hyrule: i think its slight falcon advantage however this is arguebly an even battle.
Dreamland: its no contest for pika he'll get ***** one grab and his dead. falcon can also get good DI
Kongo: Falcon small stage nowhere for pika to run if he gets comboed
Saffron: Slight advantage falcon pika has some room to run
Peach's Castle: Advantage Pika, this is the only stage pika has an advantage. Pika has room to run and no wall DI for falcon and no edges to grab.

yep thats right

in most cases if falcon has good mindgames and doesn't always dash grab into pika's combos (which causes falcon to get off stage and then gets owned by pikas air edgeguards) then falcon wins

 

[malva00]

this topic is dum pikachu owns falcon

 

[Box_of_Fox]

Ohhhhh

The Box: 1
People against the Box: 0

 

[Sensei]

rofl, pikachu > everybody. the BEST recovery, GREAT comboing and the BEST edgeguarder. High priority on most attacks. Yea captain falcon can combo pika, but pikas combos are far more devastating. falcon's combos don't work always work on pika like they do on everybody else because of pika's recovery. with pika, if you combo right, you can make sure they won't come back because again, great combos and the best recovery.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

pika has a huge advantage on dreamland, throw off edge...well gl recovering even if you DI like a little *****

 

[Box_of_Fox]

Sensei where are YOU been? @.@

 

[_kSo_]

this topic is dum pikachu owns falcon

he has spoken! valoem you are WRONG.

it's cool though

 

[cmasterchoe]

Just for falconkicks lets compare individual moves shall we?

Fsmash - advantage pika - decent reach, lasts really long, easy noob edgeguard
Usmash - even/slight pika - pika's is slightly quicker but both are solid
Dsmash - even

jab - who cares - btw falcon makes cooler sound (hyuh hyuh hyuh hyuh)
dtilt - even - pika's might be faster
utlit - pika - cuz its broken like a mofo

b-move - FALCON PUUUUUUNCH - when used right it can be deadly, is pikachu uses it right, it can be mildly electrifying
up-b - debatable - falcon's definitely is used in attacking more, but sucks at recovery, but pika's allows you to get outta really tight spots (like being underneath something and you can go around, or ridiculous recovery)
down-b - pikachu - Pika's can be used to kill when linked with usmash, falcon's only really used as an occasional edgeguard

uair - falcon - although pika's is ridiculous high priority and very quick, falcon's ability to juggle and still do tons of damage gives it the slight edge
fair - pikachu - does tons of damage, falcon's is only situationally useful and takes way to d**n long.
bair - slight falcon - the only way i give falcon a slight edge is because i think pika's is a split second slower, but both are deadly
dair - falcon - i think pika's dair may be more frequently used throughout the game, falcon's is a shmillion times more deadly near the edges. the ultimate finisher.

Edit: okay speed isn't exactly a "move" nor is "recovery", well i don't give a flying falconpunch
Speed - Pikachu - falcon's fast, but pikachu is hella-fast, and much lighter making him less susceptible to combos.

Recovery- Pikachu - kinda covered in up-B, but its no contest pika recover ftw.

Dashdance - falcon - Dude, have you seen his dashdance? He's like building a tornado!!!!

So it looks neck and neck, so it alll comes down to the taunt.

Taunt - Show me your moves! - Holy crap what a masculine challenge, not only directly taunting the opponent but also raising his hand to say 'c'mon mate!' WTF is up with pikachu, he stands on his tippy toes and moves his head from side to side? Disappointing man... disappointing.

Jeez and pika was doing so well...


Honorable mentions -
falcon's sex kick
pika's ability to make ppl into skeletons
falcon's constant constipation noises.

 

[_kSo_]

Just for falconkicks lets compare individual moves shall we?

Fsmash - advantage pika - decent reach, lasts really long, easy noob edgeguard
Usmash - even/slight pika - pika's is slightly quicker but both are solid
Dsmash - even

jab - who cares - btw falcon makes cooler sound (hyuh hyuh hyuh hyuh)
dtilt - even - pika's might be faster
utlit - pika - cuz its broken like a mofo

b-move - FALCON PUUUUUUNCH - when used right it can be deadly, is pikachu uses it right, it can be mildly electrifying
up-b - debatable - falcon's definitely is used in attacking more, but sucks at recovery, but pika's allows you to get outta really tight spots (like being underneath something and you can go around, or ridiculous recovery)
down-b - pikachu - Pika's can be used to kill when linked with usmash, falcon's only really used as an occasional edgeguard

uair - falcon - although pika's is ridiculous high priority and very quick, falcon's ability to juggle and still do tons of damage gives it the slight edge
fair - pikachu - does tons of damage, falcon's is only situationally useful and takes way to d**n long.
bair - slight falcon - the only way i give falcon a slight edge is because i think pika's is a split second slower, but both are deadly
dair - falcon - i think pika's dair may be more frequently used throughout the game, falcon's is a shmillion times more deadly near the edges. the ultimate finisher.

This is false, i'm afraid.


A few things:
1.) Pika's fsmash doesnt have tilt ability. falcon's does
2.) Pika's dsmash is much MUCH better than falcon's, and falcon's usmash has much more priority than pika's ( but pika's kills ppl, while falcon's does not. most of the time lol)
3.) Pika's jab combos into a throw. Falcon's does not, however falcon can use his jabs for resets
4.) Pika's dtilt is much more useful than falcon's
5.) I believe falcon's downb is much more useful. not just for edgeguarding but also for extending combos. You'll see in my next combo video. Or no, in fact go watch m3gav01t's combo video. he does it a lot too. it's also really practical
6.) Pika's uair has a lot of priority, and does not need to be z-canceled. Also, you can do a double uair off a sh. Falcon's also has a lot of priority, and it is great for juggling.
7.) Pika's dair is much more useful. has more priority, faster startup, and less lag

I think that's a bit more accurate

 

[Box_of_Fox]

You can't compare moves like that, because each of their attacks are used in unique ways.

For example, Falcon's Uair is easily a "better move" when you compare their stats, but pikachu's uair is honestly just more dangerous. Falcon's Uair is for combinations-- while Pikachu's uair is a 1-hit edgeguard-kills. Both have their uses and can't honestly be compared.

Its true for many of your moves and I'm not going to take the time to argue the list... except for one--

Falcon's up-B vs. Pikachu's? That isn't even kind of debatable. Pikachu's up-B not only has invincibility frames, it goes farther and at different angles, can be "extended to float" by letting go of the keys at the end of animation, can be aimed to grab the edge directly, and completely nullies about 50% of his opponent's possible ways to edgeguard just because its so versatile. It also allows Pikachu to travel an inordinate distance away from the edge to strike an opponent.... the list goes on.

 

[cmasterchoe]

1.) Pika's fsmash doesnt have tilt ability. falcon's does

Could you clarify that one please? i don't quite follow the whole tilt with relation to fsmash.

 

[cmasterchoe]

Falcon's up-B vs. Pikachu's? That isn't even kind of debatable.

I guess what i was trying to do was consider it from an attacking standpoint. That's why i later added the "recovery" section, i wasn't exactly sure how to do it.

I understand that you can't exactly compare individual moves, so one of the things i asked myself was, "What if that was the only move i could use" and see how they stacked up. *shrugs* It sure helped pass the time in MATLAB class.

 

[Lord Kirby]

omgglypuff stfuppercut. wat da mutha friggin crap already? everyone should know by now that
PIKACHU IS CHEAPLY BETTER THAN FALCON!!!

 

[_kSo_]

Could you clarify that one please? i don't quite follow the whole tilt with relation to fsmash.

Correction, I think pika's has a slight tilt, but not enough to make it noticable or meaningful.

A tilt in a fsmash is done by doing fsmash at a diagonal direction. this is easiest to see with samus's fsmash. ( i dont think this is possible on kb; but i've never tried it so who knows). When you do a normal fsmash, you press ->A, correct? well when you do a tilt fsmash, you do the same input, but as you press A, you tilt your analog stick down at a 45 degree angle or up a 45 degree angle (give or take) and samus will do a 45 degree tilt upward fsmash or 45 degree downward fsmash. captain falcon, on the other hand only does a 45 deg downward smash. the upward one only is slightly tilted upward. (if you imagine what a 45 deg kick upward looks like, it would probably hurt for a guy 0.o ). I'm not sure what the correct frame data or whatnot is for this. maybe if ant-d was reading this, he could specify?

 

[cmasterchoe]

holy crap! so its basically f-smash and you slide the stick down 45 degrees? so i'm guessing that it also makes the hitbox lower? kickarse