Does anyone else find online matches... annoying?

[WwwWario]

I'll admit it - I've had some of my most epic matches online on Smash 3DS. They've been so much fun.

But then... there's been the matches that have been, well, not so fun. People who use characters like Lucario, Robin, etc., you know, the projectile monsters. And with this game's highly buffed rolling, those matches were horrible, and the matches I played today with me as Ganondorf vs a Lucario - I think that was the worst, most boring, most annoying and most frustrating match I've ever experienced in Smash.

Basically the concept of the few matches I had with him, was him running to the sides (as he's much faster than Ganondorf). Charging up his Aura Sphere and sending it. Dodging it isn't the most problematic job in the world, but as I come close, he will roll, grab me, anything, and get me away. The rolls are so fast and has so little ending lag that even when HE rolls, it feels like he can attack before me. So he took advantage of that. As I approached, he would keep rolling until he could grab me, (and it was easy for him as rolls are SO fast in this game), and he would toss me away, run away, charge Aurasphere - repeat. And on the hits I managed to land on him, his aura would grow, and he would spam Side Special (which now has an enormous range), spam huge and powerful Aura Spheres, and being generally alot more powerful. After 3 matches I just quit in the middle of the match, not caring if I got banend from online a few minutes. I was so sick of it. In the end, it ended up with both of us just rolling and rolling until one could land a hit (which usually was him), then he ran away and started his "technique" again.

I'm such a huge Smash fan, and I've had so many fun and epic battles in Smash 4, but if this is how rolling and the gameplay is going to be kept, then I'm going to be frustrated. A lot. Very much, actually. I've experienced these type of matches before, and I've won some of them. The fact that the matches can be annoying if I'm the one having problems hitting (which was the case now), that's not the main problem. The problem is that when the opponent play like this - it's just PLAIN BORING. You just have to either HOPE to predict his roll, or go for luck and hope we won't roll. Even if he does roll and you predict it, the roll is SO fast and has SO little ending lag that you won't be able to react before they can attack again. And what is the result? A math where both rolls, try to land a hit, and spam projectiles when you're not close. I truly hope I don't see more of those kind of matches...

 

[Starman15]

Oh yeah, definitely, I mean, I've had a ton of fun matches, but I had this one 1v1 game for example, against a Link who did nothing but spam projectiles. When I checked the match results, it would list this guy as using at least 40 projectiles. It's not the game itself, but the spammers who plague it.

 

[WwwWario]

Oh yeah, definitely, I mean, I've had a ton of fun matches, but I had this one 1v1 game for example, against a Link who did nothing but spam projectiles. When I checked the match results, it would list this guy as using at least 40 projectiles. It's not the game itself, but the spammers who plague it.

Exacly. If played "fair", and using rolling and dodging and projectiles "normally", the Smash 4 matches can be extremly fun and competitive. But when they are used like they are by these spammers - it just ruins it all.

 

[Wiley]

The online is incredibly fun to have. And sadly these people exist offline as well. I've only run into a few of these types, and I'm glad to say I have only fallen trap to the frustration once or twice. Just don't play them again win or lose. I play Ganon as well so I know the pain. Stall out if you must just keep your cool and hunt for punish windows, if this is the lame player strategy you're facing accept that you don't have to endure any more than 5 minutes of this low life and don't lose to your frustration. Spot dodge when you're mid/close over roll chasing and prep Dtilts and Dsmashes punishments in your head. Sometimes a Dspecial or a S-special is the right roll punish, it's an uphill battle for sure though.

Best of luck... and here's to all of us not being faced with such troll behavior when we're having fun online :D

 

[Riggy Rascal]

Yeah, I've bumped into people with similar playstyles, too.
It's like, while there are a pretty big number who play like this for the win or what have you, there's also a (perhaps smaller, unfortunately) number of people that would get bored by playing in such a way. There's bound to be people like that online, but they can be pretty scarce.

 

[Dsull]

Its that way in any game. Face against someone that actually plays the game, its fun as hell and you can get some pretty epic battles.
Face against someone that learns you can cheese someone and win 80% of the time because you pissed them off to the point where they make dumb mistakes, the fun goes away.

I tend to leave soon as i notice someone is just spamming an ability. Unless its an ability that is ungodly easy to punish, then i'll just punish the crap out of them till they stop doing it. Faced a little mac that literally either sideb'd at me OR countered every...single...time....i 2stocked him 10 times before he finally stopped countering every time i took a single step towards him lol

 

[Roukiske]

It's part of any game. There will always be players who cheese. There will also be players who cheese AND are very good. That's just how it is with some match-ups. While not fun for you, can be very fun for them. Some play for fun, some play to win. I mean, if you go to a tournament or something its not like you're gonna get up and leave if this happens.

 

[WwwWario]

Its that way in any game. Face against someone that actually plays the game, its fun as hell and you can get some pretty epic battles.
Face against someone that learns you can cheese someone and win 80% of the time because you pissed them off to the point where they make dumb mistakes, the fun goes away.

I tend to leave soon as i notice someone is just spamming an ability. Unless its an ability that is ungodly easy to punish, then i'll just punish the crap out of them till they stop doing it. Faced a little mac that literally either sideb'd at me OR countered every...single...time....i 2stocked him 10 times before he finally stopped countering every time i took a single step towards him lol

Haha, exactly! Luckily, after searching for a new match after that horrific experience, I found a Mario player who was very talented. Had some very, very fun and epic battles with him.

 

[WwwWario]

It's part of any game. There will always be players who cheese. There will also be players who cheese AND are very good. That's just how it is with some match-ups. While not fun for you, can be very fun for them. Some play for fun, some play to win. I mean, if you go to a tournament or something its not like you're gonna get up and leave if this happens.

True. I guess if I only find a way to counter them back with this, it can go better. Punish them back because of their spam. I guess I need to get to know how to time my attacks on rollers in Smash 4 better.

 

[NidoMay]

Haha, exactly! Luckily, after searching for a new match after that horrific experience, I found a Mario player who was very talented. Had some very, very fun and epic battles with him.

Speaking of: how's about looking into working with characters that can reflect projectiles with ease for the time being? So if Ganon loses once, bring out something like Mario or Fox and ruin their spam game. Or even use Ness to heal off them.

Though on a side note I do find the comments about rolling buffs unusual. Unless the cpu is a bigger cheating ******* than ever, the rolls have been almost worthless to me, always get hit anyway. Maybe they'll throw off a human player sometimes but I literally always get hit in the one frame of vulnerability. Every. Stinking. Time. :/ Half the time it feels like Shields barely work too. Again, might be total cheating by computer but still...

 

[SwoodGrommet]

Unfortunately, I'm someone who is easily annoyed by these kinds of things. I'm getting better at keeping my cool over things like this, but yes, online matches can be rather frustrating sometimes. Some people just are not fun to play. I find Little Mac to be one of the most boring match ups in the game, as that character demands a completely different playstyle from everyone. I'm also not a fan of Link/Toon Link projectile spam either.

My current issue with online is that half of my opponents are waaay to easily beat, and the other half are impossible for me to take down. Whenever I win a game, it just feels so unrewarding because I have the mentality that if I won, my opponent must not be very good or is perhaps new to the game. So, if I find someone I cannot beat, I stay with them until they leave. However, this is equally as bad, as I can't ask for advice on how to improve afterwards. This is what makes online matches annoying for me.

 

[Wiley]

Actually NidoMay brings up a great point!

Use the CPU to your advantage, roll around the screen with a certain character you want to know how to handle. Set the CPU to 9 and have them play as your main or someone you're interested in learning. See how the computer punishes you and there is some ground work for counter play. Obviously level 9s aren't the end all be all, but it could help your foundation and you could transfer the frame data you learn from the experience to players when it becomes second nature. This is purely for timing and options, I'm sure you can tighten your frames more than a CPU.

This is not going to solve all problems, but it could help a little!

 

[DakotaBonez]

I play alot of Ganon and am also frustrated by projectile/roll spammers, because Ganon can't whip out attacks in quick succession.
In these cases I usually switch to another character who has rapid jabs like Little Mac. I can just stand still and hold the punch button and they roll right into my fists. I'm a terrible Little Mac player but you don't need to have much skill to beat noobs. The only good attack Ganon has for dealing with rolls is his wizkick, which has a long duration.

Today, I faced a Falco who would run to one side of the stage, spam lasers, roll away and run to the other side and spam more lasers. I just spammed Wizkicks through the lasers and was able to defeat him, but the next round he started fighting me for real, whipping out combos that left me stupefied and KOing me twice without me getting more than a lucky jab or two in. I guess some people just play stupid to take out noobs who don't know how to counter spam.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

If you're having problems with rolls, would it work if you went onto training mode, slowed down the game time, zoomed in on yourself, and rolled about with each of the characters? I'm kind of new to this, but would the punishable frames be indicated by the character no longer flashing white? If so, surely that would be a great way to analyse the roll animations, and see exactly when you could punish them for it.

 

[NidoMay]

Actually NidoMay brings up a great point!

Use the CPU to your advantage, roll around the screen with a certain character you want to know how to handle. Set the CPU to 9 and have them play as your main or someone you're interested in learning. See how the computer punishes you and there is some ground work for counter play. Obviously level 9s aren't the end all be all, but it could help your foundation and you could transfer the frame data you learn from the experience to players when it becomes second nature. This is purely for timing and options, I'm sure you can tighten your frames more than a CPU.

This is not going to solve all problems, but it could help a little!

Hm, that sounds good in writing but really, most of the punishes cpus do require either impossible reaction times or outright reading button inputs (either way, unfair)
Unless there's a super-secret method of moving into a shield before an attack's lag finishes or even in the middle of a taunt.

So I don't think it's really possible to emulate them.



Just a thought though, what about rolling away from them if they keep going to each side? Might force them to approach or roll towards you, might give a slight chance to punish? I'm not exactly experienced so I wouldn't know for sure.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

I tried rolling around a level 9 CPU and it literally had no idea what to do; all the attacks missed and it started to throw out random aerials.

 

[Clemente]

Yes basically any character with a Samus-like charge tends to run and matches will often go until Sudden Death, and as so many apologists love to say you can punish rolling but not so well if the opponent is simply rolling away repeatedly, especially if you're not on a fast running character.

So if the Lucario, Samus, Robin rolls from edge to edge the game might go close to 5 minutes, and it becomes tiring.

Yes we all know if someone misses an attack and dodges immediately backwards, etc., or rolls behind you, you can pretty easily anticipate these moves and punish them. Every roll thread has some roll defenders - rolls suck in this game.

 

[Wiley]

I'm going to edit that out, to not cause confusion to anyone else. I just tested it, and it does showcase some of your options. But the CPU is terrible at it, as tested with 9Ganon and Sheik rolling.

The better plan, get someone's friend code and take turns rolling/punishing with purpose. It doesn't hurt to baby step your growth though. Wax on, wax off, so to speak.

 

[Turokman5896]

My problem is the lag. I tend to play Mario or wario and I feel that even slight lag destroys my timing. But what's more frustrating is that every match, my game pauses and has the loading symbol, but the guy I'm playing against seems unfazed. It makes me feel like the lag is all in my head or something...

 

[CharZane]

I have Toon Link as one of my secondaries specifically to handle this. Spin attack is the world's most mindlessly simply roll punish if they roll towards me like an idiot, while he can out-spam literally the entire cast if need be-- in addition to ability to block charge shots and such with his shield by doing nothing. His speed and quick dash attack can help chase if need be, while his great grab range keep him from losing many grab-battles, but the ability to beat cheese with better-played cheese has proven the surest way to elicit a proper ragequit from them. If you're really that bothered, you can report them or eject the cartridge to not record the game if you're particularly vindictive-- though, simply blocking them is more reasonable.

For those who spam rolls but are melee, I tend to use LM (my other secondary)-- though he can certainly handle a fair few projectile-spamming sorts, if not as effortlessly. Mac's combination of dash attack and Dsmash really destroy the average non-Samus, non-Sheik rolling games.

 

[Raijinken]

If you have issues with Robin's projectiles, play literally any character with a reflector. For the details:

• Arcfire AND the Fire finisher to the jab combo share a 6-use counter, 10 second recharge.
• Elwind and the Wind jab combo share 18 uses. Elwind UpB uses two uses per cast normally, not sure how fast the jab drains it. 6 second recharge.
• Nosferatu gets 4 uses, 40 second recharge.
• Thunder tome gets 20 uses, 10 second recharge.
• Thunder takes 1 use (Maximum uses with a full book: 20)
• Elthunder takes 3 (Maximum 7)
• Arcthunder takes 5 (Maximum 4)
• Thoron takes 8 (Maximum 3)
• Not a projectile typically, but the Levin Sword gets 8 swings (unlike in Fire Emblem, a miss will deplete your durability), 10 second recharge.

Note that if any charges remain, the spell can work, thus Elthunder having 7 instead of 6, and Thoron having 3 instead of 2.

For Lucario, it's important to figure out ways to end stocks quickly, as aura will make sure that if he got a stock lead while also holding 150odd percent, he'll still have a good chance of keeping his lead. Easy to die as low as 70 to some of his attacks.

 

[Diamond DHD]

I hope rolls and projectiles are nerfed in future patches. I'm saying this as a dedicated DHD main, as it's especially annoying for me as an offensive player, as when you go DHD all people immediately assume you're going to projectile spam and run to the opposite side of the stage to throw whatever they can at you.

 

[link2702]

Welcome to the world of online gaming and playing to win.


If you're heading into a mode like for glory, you need to understand what that fully means; players there are playing to win.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

I hope rolls and projectiles are nerfed in future patches. I'm saying this as a dedicated DHD main, as it's especially annoying for me as an offensive player, as when you go DHD all people immediately assume you're going to projectile spam and run to the opposite side of the stage to throw whatever they can at you.

A lot of people will disagree with me, but I would like to see rolls be given a nerf. It doesn't even have to be a big nerf, just something small.

Projectiles? I don't know, most of them seem ok. Pit's Light Arrows have been heavily nerfed since Brawl, so I'd prefer if they were left alone. I sometimes have trouble with certain projectiles if my opponent knows what he/she is doing. A competent Lucario is very dangerous with the Aura Sphere. Megaman gives me hell with his projectiles; he has so many, I can't keep up with them
Sheik's needles are troublesome; not because of damage, but how they leave you open for attack for so long. .Apart from that, I think projectiles are alright. However, I'm not denying your experiences online, please keep that in mind.

 

[Colin Steele]

I hope rolls and projectiles are nerfed in future patches. I'm saying this as a dedicated DHD main, as it's especially annoying for me as an offensive player, as when you go DHD all people immediately assume you're going to projectile spam and run to the opposite side of the stage to throw whatever they can at you.

Yeah, honestly I play a lot of characters like Link and ZSS - ones that are really good at zoning, and I can say that the game heavily favors anyone with any kind of projectile. D3's little gordo buff is complete absurdity. The increased catering of non-confrontational (and I mean really non-confrontational) players is the one major caveat of what I consider to be the best fighting game series of all time.

While everyone else is rejoicing in the game's apparent "god-tier balance" I'm sitting here asking why the **** Yoshi plays like a Melee character on steroids, and why Samus still apparently weighs 50 pounds. There aren't really any Meta-Knight level broken characters (Rosalina still gives me a ****load of trouble, but Idk if we can call her OP yet), but instead there are a ton of really questionable decisions in balancing.

I love the game, but this was nowhere near the tuning I was hoping for. Instead of allowing casual players to win more often, Sakurai seems to have said "**** it, nobody gets to be happy."