Doctor Mario 1.1.5 Patch Notes (more sighing)

Crazc

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#1
well fellas

yet again we go another patch with no buffs or nerfs.

Doc Patch Notes: no changes

Maybe next time?
 

Capt. Tin

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#2
I feel as though the balancing team believes he's in a position where he's fine.

Patches won't really have a significant impact on tournament results unless it's an Ike type buff and Doc hasn't really been one to get major buffs.
 

godogod

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#3
This is what happens when half the community is toxic and shuts down the other half completely for suggesting buffs for Dr mario.

Sure he has power and great frame data, but he can't chase for squat, and he's so easy to gimp. From a competitive aspect, there isn't much reason to use Mario over Dr Mario, because Mario has more combos, better air speed, way faster, and has a decent recovery.

So are you guys gonna keep wallowing about no buffs and settle for mediocrity, or actually have more of a discussion about it instead of shutting others down because nario did good? We might just have one more patch, or you guys could have blown it with the last patch. I don't know. But it doesn't hurt to try.

You know, the only difference between this board and the mewtwo board, is that there's way more of us Mewtwo fans The proportion of people who wanted Mewtwo to get buffed vs didn't think he needed anymore are about the same as this one. But we have way more people so it helps that there's a larger vocal minority count asking for buffs..
Seems like this board died and stopped caring in January tbqh. Sad.
 

godogod

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#4
I feel as though the balancing team believes he's in a position where he's fine.

Patches won't really have a significant impact on tournament results unless it's an Ike type buff and Doc hasn't really been one to get major buffs.
No, strangely I've hardly heard sen any complaints whatsoever about dr mario. Not on gamefaqs, and not on this dead board. Seems like people don't care/don't think its possible he can get any more buffs, or are convinced he doesn't need to because the other half of the toxic competitive community says he doesn't need any. We've gotten a crap ton of attribute buffs in weight, air speed, and speed. Mewtwo alone got 20% raise in speed from the last 3 patches(specifically 1.1.3 and 1.1.5). Whether its frame data or attributes, its doable. If we actually open a dialogue about it.
 
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#5
This is what happens when half the community is toxic and shuts down the other half completely for suggesting buffs for Dr mario.

Sure he has power and great frame data, but he can't chase for squat, and he's so easy to gimp. From a competitive aspect, there isn't much reason to use Mario over Dr Mario, because Mario has more combos, better air speed, way faster, and has a decent recovery.

So are you guys gonna keep wallowing about no buffs and settle for mediocrity, or actually have more of a discussion about it instead of shutting others down because nario did good? We might just have one more patch, or you guys could have blown it with the last patch. I don't know. But it doesn't hurt to try.

You know, the only difference between this board and the mewtwo board, is that there's way more of us Mewtwo fans The proportion of people who wanted Mewtwo to get buffed vs didn't think he needed anymore are about the same as this one. But we have way more people so it helps that there's a larger vocal minority count asking for buffs..
Seems like this board died and stopped caring in January tbqh. Sad.

Huge difference between shutting down someone for suggesting buffs and not agreeing with the buffs suggested (none of us are doing the former). I hate to say it like this but you're just spouting nonsense if you think that:

1. NO ONE wants buffs.
2. People are shutting down others for suggesting buffs. We just don't want people to focus on irrelevant buffs.

So easy to gimp - Ok, no. Don't waste your options, be less predictable and you will be ok in most situations. I'm not saying his recovery is amazing (I'd personally like his Up-B to go higher) but it's not even close to being as bad as you described it. And Mario's recovery isn't that much better. Your comparison on things like Mario's cape stalling and Doc's not doesn't work, since Mario's stall doesn't give him height and stops all momentum.

Mario has an easier time punishing but a worse time killing. Doc can kill a lot of the good characters with Down Throw to Fair and it's a much better combo than Mario's version because it works when accounting for DI. This means that he actually has a use in competitive play.

Settling for mediocrity and not shutting down others, etc. - If you cared so much, why didn't you respond or make other suggestions? Other players have contributed more frequently than you have with more reasonable suggestions. Set an example, actually generate some discussions, and learn about the damn character.

Mewtwo wasn't that great of a character, in a much worse situation than Doc. Honestly, he needed more work done for him than Doc did because he was FUNDAMENTALLY mediocre.

You know what's funny about your last line? You didn't bother restarting this discussion! So you're partly to blame.
 
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Capt. Tin

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#6
I'm not suggesting to give up on buffs, but patches have made people desperate to hope for balancing to make their character better. Going out there in tournaments and getting results what makes your character higher, not just reliance on patches.

Melee had a small amount of "balancing" into it and even without the game being changed, some characters were able to get higher tier placements because people were getting results with then considered low tiers.

I've learned to praise every buff he gets, and every one he doesn't get is just a reminder to put forth my best effort with the character, even if he is considered bad.
 
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#7
I'm not suggesting to give up on buffs, but patches have made people desperate to hope for balancing to make their character better. Going out there in tournaments and getting results what makes your character higher, not just reliance on patches.

Melee had a small amount of "balancing" into it and even without the game being changed, some characters were able to get higher tier placements because people were getting results with then considered low tiers.

I've learned to praise every buff he gets, and every one he doesn't get is just a reminder to put forth my best effort with the character, even if he is considered bad.
But you have to ask yourself whether or not someone can assess your character's effectiveness better than you can. Pro players may be great at the game, but are they always the most knowledgeable? I don't think so.
 

Capt. Tin

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#8
But you have to ask yourself whether or not someone can assess your character's effectiveness better than you can. Pro players may be great at the game, but are they always the most knowledgeable? I don't think so.
Of course they're not the most knowledgeable. ZeRo has proven he's been wrong about Dr. Mario's placement in the metagame based on Nairo's performance which gave the character a small boost in popularity.
 
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#9
Of course they're not the most knowledgeable. ZeRo has proven he's been wrong about Dr. Mario's placement in the metagame based on Nairo's performance which gave the character a small boost in popularity.
My point is, if you know what makes a character good and bad, try to assess what's good and bad about your character and see where they stand. Don't worry about what others say about Doc because they probably won't know anything about the character. People still think his recovery is holding him back, whereas people who have played Doc know that it's his speed above anything else.
 

godogod

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#10
You lack serious reading comprehension or you're selectively reading. I said that from what I've seen, half of the community thinks he doesn't want need buffs. Not all! Geesus.

Didn't bother to restart the discussion? lol I just did here. But you should look at the other thread about what dr mario needs to be patched. I was the last person to post(january), and I posted again on that thread before I posted here. What do you want me to say where there's that portion of that fanbase that says nothing wrong with him and doesn't need any more buffs? Can't really say anything when no one else continues after!

And I'm not a reg on this board. lol I literally haven't been on this board since January. But like I said, I've tried making dialogue on more than one occasion. Just because I'm not a reg, doesn't mean my opinion doesn't matter.
 
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GerudoKong

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#11
I'm not sure having a bigger community that thinks Doc needs buffs would help here. I'm pretty certain Nintendo watches their Japanese audience more (logically), and I suppose they don't seem to feel Doc needs anything. Personally I think a lot could be done to buff doc in a fair way. Being the 4th slowest character in the game yet still having a moveset designed on being a rushdown character makes no sense at all, and his upB doesn't kill as early as other offensive upBs like Roy's does.
 

Crazc

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#12
I'm glad we got another debate in this thread. Lol.

I've been maining Doc for over a year now. His speed is what he needs improved the most to be actually viable. Sure his recovery isn't the best, but it's really the speed that needs the most improvement.

Sadly, I believe this will be our last patch for Smash. I doubt we really had a chance at getting good from patches, anyways. I'm pretty sure that the reason Sakurai was so determined to make Mewtwo good was because he was, well, DLC. Not one of the DLC characters are below mid-tier.
 
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#13
I'm not sure having a bigger community that thinks Doc needs buffs would help here. I'm pretty certain Nintendo watches their Japanese audience more (logically), and I suppose they don't seem to feel Doc needs anything. Personally I think a lot could be done to buff doc in a fair way. Being the 4th slowest character in the game yet still having a moveset designed on being a rushdown character makes no sense at all, and his upB doesn't kill as early as other offensive upBs like Roy's does.
Neither of those are OFFENSIVE. And Doc's is still way better than Roy's is because of the ability to reverse it + its' speed + huge sweetspot hitbox. Stop looking at one aspect of the move (which, by the way, is pretty good). His Up-B is pretty good and there are other aspects of the character that should be looked at.


Not one of the DLC characters are below mid-tier.
I think Roy is pretty bad tbh. At best he might be low mid tier, but his disadvantage + safety is bad.


You lack serious reading comprehension or you're selectively reading. I said that from what I've seen, half of the community thinks he doesn't want need buffs. Not all! Geesus.
Which half? Because it seems like you're selectively reading as well. We have, much to my dismay, 2-3 threads here saying "Buff this character", though those tend to be discussed by non-Doc mains. And I think there are a few posts on Twitter and Reddit saying "Doc needs some buffs".





Didn't bother to restart the discussion? lol I just did here. But you should look at the other thread about what dr mario needs to be patched. I was the last person to post(january), and I posted again on that thread before I posted here. What do you want me to say where there's that portion of that fanbase that says nothing wrong with him and doesn't need any more buffs? Can't really say anything when no one else continues after!
I mean, you've had all these months to restart the discussion. Take the initiative. Stop relying on other people to start these things. Make a list of changes and give reasons for them. Meanwhile, we'll be trying to develop the character as is.


And I'm not a reg on this board. lol I literally haven't been on this board since January. But like I said, I've tried making dialogue on more than one occasion. Just because I'm not a reg, doesn't mean my opinion doesn't matter.
Oh, the irony of saying I lack reading comprehension when you make statements like the one above. I never said that your opinions don't matter because you're not a regular. I'm saying that:

1. You should take more initiative in starting these discussions. Hell, go to the Smash Bros reddit if you want. I haven't seen you frequently post here or an any big Smash Bros site.
2. Some, not all, of your suggestions don't really fix any big issues. For example:

"If Dr tornado can go into super jump punch, that would be swell.." - Why? What will this accomplish?


"The main thing that is ****ing him over imo, is that his recovery is god awful, and he's slow as hell so he can't chase people" - The second part is correct, and I would like to have it buffed as well. The first part, not so much. He doesn't fall quickly, he can vary his horizontal and vertical height pretty well with Down-B (horizontal distance is decent, vertical is not good), and his sheet snaps to the ledge.


"higher jump, higher up b" - This is fine, though this should be for his regular jumps, and not his short hop.


"stall form the cape like a vertical boost" - Maybe, but here's the thing. Wavebounce/B-Reverse Sheet helps this character microspace. Adding a stall property will make it worse. It also snaps to the ledge when close. I don't think this is a bad change, but it's not very important.


"Doc having super armor frames on up b would be nice too." - No need to, since it's pretty disjointed as is and comes out quickly.
 
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Capt. Tin

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#14
I'm glad we got another debate in this thread. Lol.

I've been maining Doc for over a year now. His speed is what he needs improved the most to be actually viable. Sure his recovery isn't the best, but it's really the speed that needs the most improvement.

Sadly, I believe this will be our last patch for Smash. I doubt we really had a chance at getting good from patches, anyways. I'm pretty sure that the reason Sakurai was so determined to make Mewtwo good was because he was, well, DLC. Not one of the DLC characters are below mid-tier.
It's not impossible for another patch, but you can't just rely on them and expect them to improve your tournament results. If you're losing with the character, you need to practice.

I've been getting better with him despite no patches for him because I practice and improve.
 

GerudoKong

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#15
I don't think we should give up hope just yet, I mean everyone was already complaining not too long ago that 1.1.4 was the last patch.
 

Crazc

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#16
It's not impossible for another patch, but you can't just rely on them and expect them to improve your tournament results. If you're losing with the character, you need to practice.

I've been getting better with him despite no patches for him because I practice and improve.
I'm not relying on patches at all to improve my tournament results. And yes, I need to practice. Maining a low-tier inherently means you need almost constant practice.
 

Chuatan

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#17
I'm not relying on patches at all to improve my tournament results. And yes, I need to practice. Maining a low-tier inherently means you need almost constant practice.
Constant practice is good, but you need that for any character you main. One thing I'm learning as a Doc main, is thinking of creative ways of getting around his weaknesses. Not only does this help you develop your own playstyle with the character, but it also helps you optimize the character much more in general.
 

TTTTTsd

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#18
I love how us Doc players (ignore the Zelda, it's a half-joke) are "Toxic" for not wanting needless buffs on our character. I actually do want to see improvements but everything that NON DOC PLAYERS suggest blatantly reeks of power creep and clashing with his design.

The best changelog for doc would be one or both of the following
- Run speed of 1.5
- Megavitamin IASA pushed back to 43

That's it. This character doesn't need SUPER ARMOR on a F3 fairly disjointed kill move OoS that would be blatantly cancerous. Adding stall to Sheet would **** with his neutral and also his landing grab vs. projectiles which is actually SIGNIFICANTLY better than Mario's because you can land with Sheet.

Other tolerable changes include a slight increase in tornado height and maybe more damage on Uair (I used to want this way early on but as I learned more strings and setups with the character I realized he takes you from 0 to 50% or higher really fast already)
 
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