Doc's cape sending enemies downwards

[Palika]

I'm sure all of us have noticed that caping an opponent in certain action states will cause them to spiral downwards, but I'm curious as to a few things about this.

First of all, what are all the different action states that will cause an opponent to spiral down? From what I can think of, there's...
1. Attempting to grab you
2. End of spacies' side-b
3. Tournament winner
4. Holding the ledge
There's more, but I can't think of them right now, but it'd be good to know all the things about this that we can.

Secondly, what are the properties of the spiral down? Is it simply a meteor smash knockback? I've never personally seen someone meteor cancel it, but the stun on it seems to last a long time. What are potential follow-ups off it, or good times to use it (it isn't always optimal).

I'm personally wondering if there is any good applications abusing the spiral down, it seems odd that the cape can inflict it at all given what it does.

 

[Superw0rri0]

well first it's a knock down....

Also I think some moves cause the knock down to happen... tbh idk much more than what you've already said. But it sort of feels random, the only consistent knock down on cape (that i've seen) is spacie's illusion...

Even if we figured out all of it, there isn't much application other than being aware that it might happen in certain situations. The only place where this is practical is spacie's illusion and even then Fox can still recover from it (assuming they are going for ledge). In the situations where a knock down on cape can be applied, there are better options. Like grab, smash.

The only other thing I can think of is causing a knock down at low percents but there isn't enough time to chase a tech. It's better to dodge and punish.

 

[JipC]

when the cape hits falco just right and he spirals to death

 

[Zonak]

I know it's something animation related. It's one of the things that hasn't really been explored. It also works on Samus/Link's grapple recoveries while they are rising and still attached to the stage.

 

[TheBoat]

A Rookie when he gets fsmash reads on yoshi's

 

[Palika]

I've done a bit of labbing, and I'd like to report the findings.
For reference, I'm going to be calling being caped in these action states down-caping.
One thing, when the enemy is down-caped, the move has really odd knockback properties.
For example, when I cape Fox when he's trying to grab me, looking at his ECB (to more accurately get an idea of the knockback) he moves up and to the side a little bit. Looking at schmoob's knockback tool, cape (despite not causing knockback normally) has an angle of 110, KBG of 80, Set KB of 0 (dunno what that means, to be honest, I'm guessing it just means it isn't set) and a BKG of 30. This may explain the slight movement up and towards the side that the enemy experiences, but it doesn't explain why this knockback appears to be constant no matter the enemy's damage.

Because of this angle, this means that down-caping cannot be meteor canceled.

To make this even stranger, the hitstun the enemy experiences will increase as their damage increases. Hitstun is directly dependent on knockback, as well all know, and will increase if the enemy is down-caped as their damage increases. To further this idea that the cape is inflicting normal knockback in these situations, testing down-caping on fox at 999% caused him to yell his hit-hard scream. In addition, down-caping fox at 28% (over the tumble kb threshold) on ledge sent him into tumble, while doing so at 27% (below the tumble kb threshold) did not.

So, my question here is, if the cape is causing knockback within these situations, why does the knockback appear set and weak, despite not really being set and weak? Is the knockback just getting immediately canceled out or something? Furthermore, why does caping in those specific action states cause a down-cape?

My theory on the last question, at least, is that the game can't flip the enemy around in those action states (or just really doesn't want to, having someone be flipped while on the ledge would be pretty glitchy, and iirc there's a glitch in brawl with the cape that does just that), so it chooses to inflict knockback instead.

One more thing I want to add, is that if someone's down-caped while on ledge, they can tech the wall even without SDI, but I'm pretty sure it needs to be done during hitlag.

Lastly, I've found another action state that causes a down cape. Caping peach during the rising portion of her up-b causes a down-cape. (It's funny when it happens, because you can cape her again after she up-b's again, and it can just keep going in a loop if you keep getting capes lol).

More research needs to be done on this.

 

[Palika]

I have a few more things I've found that might help figure out this conundrum.
One, caping someone normally does cause them to move a bit. We've all probably noticed this when we cape spacies during their up-b startup, or even just normally caping someone on the ground. Also, caping characters with lower traction (I'm not sure if anything else affects this) sends them a bit more than those with lower. Go cape peach and luigi on the ground to see what I mean.
Secondly, and this seems more important, caping someone in hitlag seems to cause a down-cape. To show an example of why that might be important, I once had a match where I caped a stitchface at a peach at around 180%. She did her hit-hard scream, but didn't move very far and lived. This means that getting caped in hitlag basically cancels out the knockback of the first hit, replacing it with a down-cape. Maybe this has potential for teams, but it seems very situational. If you want to see this for yourself, have peach throw a turnip at you while she is at high percents, reflect it with the earlier frames of the cape, and then make sure the cape hitbox hits her after she is hit by her own turnip.
Now, what this is causing me to believe is that the cape's own knockback is being canceled out because of the very nature of it. Getting hit by the cape in those action states causes knockback apparently as well as hitlag, but being hit in hitlag by the cape also causes the down-cape. Perhaps it's a property of the reverse effect during knockback? It's all very confusing.
Lastly, and this may be useful as well, but get caped while flying due to knockback also seems to cause a downcape, at least DamageFlyN anyway. I tested this using Doc's Fsmash on doc, also causes a down cape. It basically canceled out the forward smash's knockback as well.

I guess I should note that for the last two points, using any move, like doc's dair for example, will also cancel out the knockback. It's still odd that a move that normally has no knockback would do this, though. Perhaps this info could still be useful in figuring out this odd behavior of the cape.

I'll continue more research when I can.

 

[Superw0rri0]

although there really isn't much application right now... I like your research... if there was some way we could cause down-cape hit off stage (besides spacie's illusion) then doc has a "spike"

 

[Palika]

although there really isn't much application right now... I like your research... if there was some way we could cause down-cape hit off stage (besides spacie's illusion) then doc has a "spike"

Do you think, since hitlag/knockback causes a down cape, it would be possible to use a pill and follow with a cape off stage for spiking?

Edit: after a bit of testing, it appears that you can't do it with a pill. Dang. Or, at least, it's way too impractical to, but I can't even seem to do a down-cape of a pill in training with debug. Perhaps it's because it's a projectile, or it's knockback/hitstun action state is different from, say, a forward smash?

 

[Superw0rri0]

pills have super low knock back time.. the knockback is just as long as the hitstun until you get to like 200+%