Doc or Luigi?

[MarioMeteor]

both have starter combo's that go over 50% and doc kills pretty early. they both have gimpable recoveries and luigi has more options. Its about even. BTW don't say mario is better than doc just because everyone plays mario. all three of the bros are about even.

There are several reasons why Mario is better than the Doctor, and "because everyone plays mario" is not one of them.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

There are two flaws with that: #1 Dr. Mario is barely a clone. He shares the animations, but most, if not of his moves have very different functions from Mario. #2: This thread is about who's the better character as a fighter, not who you don't like because he's a clone.

How close-minded of you. While yes, the Doctor is inferior to Mario, if you're going to make a such a bold statement, explain it at least.

I guess you cannot see they are completely same in animation and normals too are same looking. Only properties are changed to pacific moves. If you want to be blind to it, thats up to you. Are going to say lucina isnt either? or roy. Just barely different. Sweet spots on marth, lucina and roy are different. Your are very close minded in excepting people or others opinions or insights. They are always disagreements and even I know they are people arent going to agree with me.

 

[MonkeyArms]

There are several reasons why Mario is better than the Doctor, and "because everyone plays mario" is not one of them.

"recovery, airspeed, edge guards, less predictability"
I can do the same thing
"projectiles, kill options, kill power, damage output"

 

[HeroMystic]

all three of the bros are about even.

No.

No they're not.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I guess you cannot see they are completely same in animation and normals too are same looking. Only properties are changed to pacific moves. If you want to be blind to it, thats up to you. Are going to say lucina isnt either? or roy. Just barely different. Sweet spots on marth, lucina and roy are different. Your are very close minded in excepting people or others opinions or insights. They are always disagreements and even I know they are people arent going to agree with me.

Sure. Call me blind them misspell "specific". Lucina and Roy are clones because their moves aren't different and they all have the same use as their base character, Marth. If you try to go off-stage and spike somebody with Doc, you're going to die. If you try it with Mario, you may or may not yield success. If you press Down and B as Doc and expect FLUDD to pop out, it won't. Yet if you press Down and B as Roy and expect to get Counter, you will. The same Counter as Marth. You obviously have no idea what close minded means, nor do you have a grasp on basic English. Hit me back when you know the difference between "Your" and "You're", K?

"recovery, airspeed, edge guards, less predictability"
I can do the same thing
"projectiles, kill options, kill power, damage output"

Mario has a projectile. Since we're playing this game, Maneuverability, aerial maneuverability, speed in general, recovery, gimping ability, off-stage game in general, combo ability, and attack speed.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Mario has a projectile. Since we're playing this game, Maneuverability, aerial maneuverability, speed in general, recovery, gimping ability, off-stage game in general, combo ability, and attack speed.

Doc's projectile is ajustable though when it bounces. Mario's "attack speed" can only apply for down air. Aside from that, everything you said is what I listed. so, yeah.

No.

No they're not.

So you two have an opinion, congratulations.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

Sure. Call me blind them misspell "specific". Lucina and Roy are clones because their moves aren't different and they all have the same use as their base character, Marth. If you try to go off-stage and spike somebody with Doc, you're going to die. If you try it with Mario, you may or may not yield success. If you press Down and B as Doc and expect FLUDD to pop out, it won't. Yet if you press Down and B as Roy and expect to get Counter, you will. The same Counter as Marth. You obviously have no idea what close minded means, nor do you have a grasp on basic English. Hit me back when you know the difference between "Your" and "You're", K?

Mario has a projectile. Since we're playing this game, Maneuverability, aerial maneuverability, speed in general, recovery, gimping ability, off-stage game in general, combo ability, and attack speed.

Ha just trying to in the right no matter what eh? I know my grammar isnt the best either but you have point out unrelated things too to the argument. I dont intend to be speaking with you anymore. Too bad your close minded and hostile. I will end it here, this is getting out of hand. I ll just stick with my final word on it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc's projectile is ajustable though when it bounces. Mario's "attack speed" can only apply for down air. Aside from that, everything you said is what I listed. so, yeah.
So you two have an opinion, congratulations.

No, it isn't. When a Megavitamin hits the ground, the arc that it bounces in is predetermined depending on how high it hits the ground from.
Mario's attack speed applies to Jab, down air, forward tilt, forward smash, and back air. Whether you listed it or not, the point still stands.
And it's not a matter of opinion.

Ha just trying to in the right no matter what eh? I know my grammar isnt the best either but you have point out unrelated things too to the argument. I dont intend to be speaking with you anymore. Too bad your close minded and hostile. I will end it here, this is getting out of hand. I ll just stick with my final word on it.

Fine by me, you weren't saying anything that made sense anyway. P.S. Do yourself a favor and look up "close-minded." Your misuse of the word is painful. I'm not being hostile at all, I'm just speaking the truth.

 

[MonkeyArms]

No, it isn't. When a Megavitamin hits the ground, the arc that it bounces in is predetermined depending on how high it hits the ground from.
Mario's attack speed applies to Jab, down air, forward tilt, forward smash, and back air. Whether you listed it or not, the point still stands.
And it's not a matter of opinion.

Your respect rating by NOT me just probably went down by10%

Jabs first attack is identical, and for the rest it'd only be a few frames of difference if there is any difference at all

 

[MarioMeteor]

Your respect rating by NOT me just probably went down by10%

Jabs first attack is identical, and for the rest it'd only be a few frames of difference if there is any difference at all

What the hell are you talking about? As if I asked to be respected by YOU? The final hit of jab has more ending lag on it than Mario's. No matter how small the difference is, it's still there. Try again.

 

[MonkeyArms]

What the hell are you talking about? As if I asked to be respected by YOU? The final hit of jab has more ending lag on it than Mario's. No matter how small the difference is, it's still there. Try again.

and how often is that going to make a difference? if you miss the first hit off a jab, chances are you aren't going to do the entire thing

 

[MarioMeteor]

and how often is that going to make a difference? if you miss the first hit off a jab, chances are you aren't going to do the entire thing

You asked and I gave you the answer. Whether it's useful to you or not makes me no difference.

 

[MonkeyArms]

You asked and I gave you the answer. Whether it's useful to you or not makes me no difference.

I didn't ask you a single question that you answered.

 

[Zethoro]

Without Customs: by a freakin' landslide.
With Customs: It's close, but I'm gonna say wins. Doc gets so much from his Customs; Gust Cape gives him incredible edgeguarding like the regular mario, Soaring Tornado is just wao for killing/edgeguarding/recovering/pizza, and fast pill gives him a (sometimes) better projectile.

Pizza: wins, but like with Doc being my third character, I could be a bit biased.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Without Customs: by a freakin' landslide.
With Customs: It's close, but I'm gonna say wins. Doc gets so much from his Customs; Gust Cape gives him incredible edgeguarding like the regular mario, Soaring Tornado is just wao for killing/edgeguarding/recovering/pizza, and fast pill gives him a (sometimes) better projectile.

Pizza: wins, but like with Doc being my third character, I could be a bit biased.

Jigglypuff wins everything. Jigglypuff is amazing. All hail Lord Jigglypuff!

I didn't ask you a single question that you answered.

Maybe not directly, but very clearly implied that you didn't know. So I told you.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Jigglypuff wins everything. Jigglypuff is amazing. All hail Lord Jigglypuff!

Maybe not directly, but very clearly implied that you didn't know. So I told you.

I'm just going to leave until you realise what the difference between a thoery and a fact is.
Theory: Mario is better than doc
Fact: Doc's damage output is bigger than mario's

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm just going to leave until you realise what the difference between a thoery and a fact is.
Theory: Mario is better than doc
Fact: Doc's damage output is bigger than mario's

Fact: Doc can't recover for ****.
Fact: Doc is several times slower than Mario.
Fact: Doc jumps lower than Mario.
Fact: Some of Doc's moves are slower than Mario's.
Fact: Doc has no off-stage game.
Fact: Doc has lower air speed than Mario.
Theory: People assume Mario is better "because everyone plays mario."
Fact: You have no reason why Doc is better other than what other people have already said.

 

[meleebrawler]

Fact: Doc has no off-stage game.

Low tornados and pills can work wonders against low recoveries. It's still limited,
but Doc probably has an easier time killing low recoveries than Mario despite the red plumber
having an easier time making it back.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Low tornados and pills can work wonders against low recoveries. It's still limited,
but Doc probably has an easier time killing low recoveries than Mario despite the red plumber
having an easier time making it back.

This is true. But you could say the same for Mario's Fireballs and his back air. Back airs can be fatal against linear recoveries like Fox.

 

[HeroMystic]

Doc does have an easier time getting edgeguard kills purely due to Tornado. However, Mario's fireball is better than Doc's for edgeguarding due to the sharper drop.

Ledge-drop -> N-air is also an option for both of them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Doc does have an easier time getting edgeguard kills purely due to Tornado. However, Mario's fireball is better than Doc's for edgeguarding due to the sharper drop.

Ledge-drop -> N-air is also an option for both of them.

Doc scores another win over Mario with his reverse sex-kick Nair.

Perhaps what Doc's pills are really useful for here is getting people to attempt pure vertical
recoveries (their angle blocks diagonal ones well).

 

[HeroMystic]

Doc scores another win over Mario with his reverse sex-kick Nair.

Perhaps what Doc's pills are really useful for here is getting people to attempt pure vertical
recoveries (their angle blocks diagonal ones well).

There's no real difference between N-airs besides timing. I suppose Doc benefits from having more leeway with his. That said if they're going pure vertical, no reason to not use Tornado.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fact: Doc can't recover for ****.
Fact: Doc is several times slower than Mario.
Fact: Doc jumps lower than Mario.
Fact: Some of Doc's moves are slower than Mario's.
Fact: Doc has no off-stage game.
Fact: Doc has lower air speed than Mario.
Theory: People assume Mario is better "because everyone plays mario."
Fact: You have no reason why Doc is better other than what other people have already said.

Doc's offstage game is actually considerably better than Mario's. One thing Mario really can't do against most characters is edgeguard low, because almost nothing he can do to cover low recoveries will really kill anyone who knows how to stage tech, while Doc in contrast with D-air and Tornado actually has great options for edgeguarding low. Furthermore Doc's Cape works better than Mario for gimp situations due to not having the stalling property to interfere with chasing recoveries.

Doc's lower jumps also give him a noticeably better B-air oos than Mario, which in addition to his single hit KO move Up-B gives him a much better defensive game overall.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc's offstage game is actually considerably better than Mario's. One thing Mario really can't do against most characters is edgeguard low, because almost nothing he can do to cover low recoveries will really kill anyone who knows how to stage tech, while Doc in contrast with D-air and Tornado actually has great options for edgeguarding low. Furthermore Doc's Cape works better than Mario for gimp situations due to not having the stalling property to interfere with chasing recoveries.

Doc's lower jumps also give him a noticeably better B-air oos than Mario, which in addition to his single hit KO move Up-B gives him a much better defensive game overall.

Except a spike, and a reliable one at that. You can't stage tech a spike. Once again Doc's abysmal recovery comes back to haunt him, because that's the thing that prevents him from edgeguarding too deep. But with Mario you're almost always going to make it back unless you're foolish enough to go too deep. Point is, Doc can have the best off-stage game in the world, but it's null and void if you can't make it back onstage yourself. Mario's Cape not stalling him does not interfere with gimping. In fact it helps because it allows for precision, as well as allowing him to actually go off-stage and Cape somebody, a tactic that will most likely get you killed as Doc.
Lower jumps are hardly an advantage over a player who knows how to short hop.
Overall yes, The Doctor is a better defensive character because his playstyle revolves around being defensive, whereas Mario is his more aggro counterpart. Though Doc does have Mario considerably outclassed in fashion choices. Those black gloves are too good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's spike is terrible against players that have halfway decent reaction time. It has virtually no range, and it's slow, and only can cover very specific options that are easy to avoid most of the time.

Mario can't really edgeguard that deep either, and unlike Doc he really can't kill anyone for recovering low unless they simply don't react to his F-air in time. Doc can at least wait for characters to be forced to Up-B for recovering low, and punish with D-air or Tornado as appropriate to prevent people from reaching the ledge, and both of these moves are potentially strong enough to KO offstage.

Also, I don't think you realize how high Mario's SH is in this game. His SH B-air will very commonly whiff against especially shorter characters like Diddy, Pikachu, Ness, and even Fox. Doc's B-air in contrast doesn't whiff nearly as often, which is a huge advantage and gives him considerably faster and stronger punish options.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario's spike is terrible against players that have halfway decent reaction time. It has virtually no range, and it's slow, and only can cover very specific options that are easy to avoid most of the time.

Mario can't really edgeguard that deep either, and unlike Doc he really can't kill anyone for recovering low unless they simply don't react to his F-air in time. Doc can at least wait for characters to be forced to Up-B for recovering low, and punish with D-air or Tornado as appropriate to prevent people from reaching the ledge, and both of these moves are potentially strong enough to KO offstage.

Also, I don't think you realize how high Mario's SH is in this game. His SH B-air will very commonly whiff against especially shorter characters like Diddy, Pikachu, Ness, and even Fox. Doc's B-air in contrast doesn't whiff nearly as often, which is a huge advantage and gives him considerably faster and stronger punish options.

Well I would hope you're not so predictable with it to where it would be that easily telegraphed. Obviously it's a slow move so you'd have to use it more wisely. But then again, most spikes in this game are easily telegraphed. Most of them have short range as well. Mario's is nothing special.
And nothing is stopping Mario from simply dropping down and back airing the recovering opponent. Mario's short hop really isn't all that high. You're probably just pressing it too hard.

 

[Propeller Toad]

I prefer the Doc over Luigi in this Smash.

It just feels so nice to get in there and unleash a couple of Dr. Mario's aerial moves along with the Dr. Tornado. His pills are great projectiles too! Now of course, his recovery isn't anything to be proud about; however, I see Doc as someone who wants to be in the middle of the action at all times and try to unleash some of those side smashes.

I just never got the hang of Luigi. Incredibly fun character; however, his playstyle is definitely a lot more clumsy. xD

 

[NewZen]

Luigi, by a longshot.

Better kills moves, better mobility and recovery, a consistent and effective projectile versus a consistent but mundane one and easier combo access, Luigi just outright craps on Doc's face.

I understand there are people here who like Doc, but the fact is he's not an effective character-he has to work too hard to KO more than half the cast, even though he's a "More powerful version of Mario" that's been nerfed due to how the engine does not suit his Melee playstyle, once he's low enough off the stage or far enough, trying to recover with him is a god-awful nightmare, due to his recovery being up there with Mac's, whereas Luigi simply has to save his jump as he F-B's to the stage and jump right into a Cyclone rise which is safe on a number of other moves. Not to mention, his cape is much worse and most of his moves don't effectively combo into themselves unlike Luigi's.

I play Doc as my Mario choice for this game, but I can't deny that he's overall the worst of the 3 Bros.-related characters.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi, by a longshot.

Better kills moves, better mobility and recovery, a consistent and effective projectile versus a consistent but mundane one and easier combo access, Luigi just outright craps on Doc's face.

I understand there are people here who like Doc, but the fact is he's not an effective character-he has to work too hard to KO more than half the cast, even though he's a "More powerful version of Mario" that's been nerfed due to how the engine does not suit his Melee playstyle, once he's low enough off the stage or far enough, trying to recover with him is a god-awful nightmare, due to his recovery being up there with Mac's, whereas Luigi simply has to save his jump as he F-B's to the stage and jump right into a Cyclone rise which is safe on a number of other moves. Not to mention, his cape is much worse and most of his moves don't effectively combo into themselves unlike Luigi's.

I play Doc as my Mario choice for this game, but I can't deny that he's overall the worst of the 3 Bros.-related characters.

No offense, but if you think Doc has to "Work too hard to KO," you've been doing something very wrong.
But this thread just refuses to die. I'm glad so many people are finding their way to the Doctor's office. Warms my ice-cold heart.

 

[NewZen]

No offense, but if you think Doc has to "Work too hard to KO," you've been doing something very wrong.
But this thread just refuses to die. I'm glad so many people are finding their way to the Doctor's office. Warms my ice-cold heart.

And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but just because you know how to make a character work in situations doesn't automatically make the character "amazing" by any means (Hell, I rocked Lucas back Brawl and beat a number of people down with him-didn't excuse the fact that he was garbage).

Yes, Doc has to work hard to get KOs, given that the high damage he has on his moves doesn't account for diddly-jack squat when the character he's based off of does a much better job and the character who people pit him against in this topic can do that with almost no effort against a number of match-ups in this game (Which is leagues above Doc's). Whether or not you'll accept it doesn't matter to me, but in terms of the tiers and factual points, you're fighting a losing battle.

 

[MarioMeteor]

And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but just because you know how to make a character work in situations doesn't automatically make the character "amazing" by any means (Hell, I rocked Lucas back Brawl and beat a number of people down with him-didn't excuse the fact that he was garbage).

Yes, Doc has to work hard to get KOs, given that the high damage he has on his moves doesn't account for diddly-jack squat when the character he's based off of does a much better job and the character who people pit him against in this topic can do that with almost no effort against a number of match-ups in this game (Which is leagues above Doc's). Whether or not you'll accept it doesn't matter to me, but in terms of the tiers and factual points, you're fighting a losing battle.

That argument works both ways. Just because you CAN'T make a character work in situations don't mean everybody else can't too. And when did I EVER call Doc Mario amazing? Even I know better than to do that.

 

[Reaper Talk]

It feels discouraging that I see everyone uses Luigi and Mario but not Dr. Mario
Everyone saw Dr. Mario places low in the initial tier lists and didn't give him a fair chance
With customs, I'd choose Dr. Mario over Mario.
Fast Capsule, Gust Cape, and Soaring Tornado basically cover his weaknesses

 

[MarioMeteor]

It feels discouraging that I see everyone uses Luigi and Mario but not Dr. Mario
Everyone saw Dr. Mario places low in the initial tier lists and didn't give him a fair chance
With customs, I'd choose Dr. Mario over Mario.
Fast Capsule, Gust Cape, and Soaring Tornado basically cover his weaknesses

People who trust tier lists are fools anyway.

 

[Reaper Talk]

People who trust tier lists are fools anyway.

Yeah and those people just end up spamming Diddy Kong :/
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I wish more people used Dr. Mario
I can barely find anyone who uses him in tournaments

 

[hey_there]

I'm a Luigi main / Mario secondary and I've decided to give Doc a second chance recently and he's really fun to play. One thing I'm really envious over concerning Doc is getting the full height on Tornado is SO much easier than Luigi Cyclone.

As a dedicated Luigi main, I found Mario much easier to pick up compared to other potential secondaries while still covering rough match ups, and consequently Doc feels somewhat natural to me. The benefits of Doc over the other two Bros. is definitely pill zoning against Ness, who is otherwise extremely annoying with Luigi and Mario because PSI Magnet invalidates Fireballs.

Doc or Luigi? Why not both?

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm a Luigi main / Mario secondary and I've decided to give Doc a second chance recently and he's really fun to play. One thing I'm really envious over concerning Doc is getting the full height on Tornado is SO much easier than Luigi Cyclone.

As a dedicated Luigi main, I found Mario much easier to pick up compared to other potential secondaries while still covering rough match ups, and consequently Doc feels somewhat natural to me. The benefits of Doc over the other two Bros. is definitely pill zoning against Ness, who is otherwise extremely annoying with Luigi and Mario because PSI Magnet invalidates Fireballs.

Doc or Luigi? Why not both?

There's an option for that.