Do you think the fireballs are OP and they'll be nerfed in the next update?

[sassafrass]

I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right forum, but I've been playing my share of Netplay lately and let's just say that my doctor has warned me about my high sodium levels... Because of the amount of salt I have run into about the fireballs. The thing is, I hardly play campy (isn't this the problem most people have with them?). I do however use them like hell for my approach which I am sometimes punished for with the better players... But not always. And I've had a few people say that they're going to absolutely be nerfed in the next PM update because they out-prioritize everything/8-9%/spammable/etc. What do you think the likelihood is of this and is it necessary?

 

[Ogopogo]

I think they are a bit too strong, and are bound to be nerfed at least a little in the next big update.

 

[GeZ]

They're not too strong. Good players will flatten you for using them as a crutch.

Bad players will always complain about things that they specifically can not deal with.

 

[sassafrass]

They're not too strong. Good players will flatten you for using them as a crutch.

Bad players will always complain about things that they specifically can not deal with.

I agree 6,000%. When I first started playing Mario, I would not approach any other way. And then when I started playing more experienced people, boy oh boy did they punish me like a little schoolboy... Luckily, I grew out of that phase and have since learned multiple ways to approach (your guide was absolutely kickass BTW)

Still though, I've been told by people who I consider to be experienced that for how fast the fireballs are, they do too much damage and out prioritize everything. I will admit, sometimes (with some characters more than others) it seems a bit unfair just how good they are... That being said, maybe I'm just playing the wrong people.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

They are salty and actually bad.

 

[GeZ]

Someone used the guide. Holy ****. Glad it helped man!

 

[TimeSmash]

I'd say they're fine as is. A great spacing tool for sure, but not OP.

 

[sassafrass]

Someone used the guide. Holy ****. Glad it helped man!

Who in their right mind would want to play as Mario and NOT want to read that guide? I've read it multiple times and I still go back to it (I have it bookmarked) from time to time, since I feel like it's too much stuff to digest in one sitting. If you ever made a video guide or something (no pressure), I would watch the hell out of it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I considered doing that. Might do it, dunno.

 

[sassafrass]

I considered doing that. Might do it, dunno.

Well, just know you would have at least one person who would watch it all the time - in the bathroom, driving, etc. Since I don't have one to watch now, I literally search "project m mario" on YouTube a few times a week and sort them by only matches that have been released in the last week. I think it's helped me see how other people play and I usually try to incorporate at least one of the things they do in my play. Like did you know M2K has been playing him kind of recently? He's got a great Mario!

 

[NickLeo]

I think next patch the % will be lowered to about 5 instead of 8, and if not the endlag might be reworked.
At the moment I'd say fireballs are a bit op considering that players actually have the ability to crutch with them

I've seen a lot of fundamentally-absent players do better than they should solely due to fireballs

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They are fine but I think they will get a little nerf and Mario gets another buff in reward to make him not focus too much on the move

 

[sassafrass]

I think next patch the % will be lowered to about 5 instead of 8, and if not the endlag might be reworked.
At the moment I'd say fireballs are a bit op considering that players actually have the ability to crutch with them

I've seen a lot of fundamentally-absent players do better than they should solely due to fireballs

5% wouldn't be too bad, but I still feel like it takes a moderate amount of skill to effectively use them. Short hopping, varying your approach to not be predictable, the whole momentum shift thing. Sure, you can camp and spam them, but as said before in this thread, good players will absolutely punish you for doing that. I'm just not sure the fireballs are that much more able to be used as a crutch than Links projectiles, Snake's grenade/mines, blasters, etc.

They are fine but I think they will get a little nerf and Mario gets another buff in reward to make him not focus too much on the move

That would be nice. I wonder what move they would buff... I'm excited for them to release the final version, so I can stop thinking about how it might change.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think next patch the % will be lowered to about 5 instead of 8, and if not the endlag might be reworked.
At the moment I'd say fireballs are a bit op considering that players actually have the ability to crutch with them

I've seen a lot of fundamentally-absent players do better than they should solely due to fireballs

5% is fair, if that does happen. Anyone can, have a "crutch" with anything considered to be character specific that doesn't have a simple way to punish by the weaker players. ie, links rang, zss unclankable projectiles, bananas and more much.

 

[Scatz]

Fireballs are meh when people stop being idiots and actually learn to punish them. There's only certain times where you have to respect fireballs, and normally that happens in situations where you wouldn't be able to make a sufficient punish anyway.

 

[DeFish]

I think that either toning down the % a bit or lowering the rate he can throw them out at is what's likely to happen. No projectile that can be spammed that actively should do the damage it does. Outside of that, I think that fireballs are manageable.

 

[foxygrandpa]

They are far too overcentralizing to mario's gameplay. In my opinion, Mario is generally easier to play than the majority of characters in this game and also has very high potential. I don't necessarily think that Mario himself is unfair, but I do think that the use of fireballs makes him probably the easiest character in this game to pick up. It's not like he doesn't have other strengths he can play off of, and I dont think that the fireballs should be so fast with so much damage potential. One or both of those issues should be addressed. They were honestly fine in 2.6. Situationally helpful but not over centralizing.

 

[Phan7om]

Nerf Mario's, Buff Kirby's

 

[GeZ]

They are far too overcentralizing to mario's gameplay. In my opinion, Mario is generally easier to play than the majority of characters in this game and also has very high potential. I don't necessarily think that Mario himself is unfair, but I do think that the use of fireballs makes him probably the easiest character in this game to pick up. It's not like he doesn't have other strengths he can play off of, and I dont think that the fireballs should be so fast with so much damage potential. One or both of those issues should be addressed. They were honestly fine in 2.6. Situationally helpful but not over centralizing.

I actually like that aspect of him, not because it makes many competent Mario mains, but for the opposite reason.

I can't tell you how happy I was when I went to my first local and saw everyone thought they had a pocket Mario. It was adorable. And when I picked him too people were jazzed for the mirror and getting to test their training wheels mettle.

The next week when I stopped by the locals, nobody was airing out pocket Marios anymore. it was the damndest thing

 

[Strong Badam]

They are far too overcentralizing to mario's gameplay. In my opinion, Mario is generally easier to play than the majority of characters in this game and also has very high potential. I don't necessarily think that Mario himself is unfair, but I do think that the use of fireballs makes him probably the easiest character in this game to pick up. It's not like he doesn't have other strengths he can play off of, and I dont think that the fireballs should be so fast with so much damage potential. One or both of those issues should be addressed. They were honestly fine in 2.6. Situationally helpful but not over centralizing.

Mario wasn't buffed in 3.0

 

[Scatz]

It's only a crutch now because people don't know how to punish it effectively (meaning the mid level group). The moment you figure out how to get around it, it's easier to manage than Zelda's Din's Fire.

 

[Mr.Random]

Someone used the guide. Holy ****. Glad it helped man!

GeZ it was excellent of course they'll use it. I go to it sometimes too and I'm usually the Mario Guru in my area lol. Fireballs in my opinion should be used only when there is a good amount of space between you and the opponent forcing them to approach. I usually stop using them when they are two character lengths away with means I accomplished my goal in making them approach and I use x move depending on what they do now.

Mario wasn't buffed in 3.0

Don't listen to the complainers please. They don't need nerfs.

I think next patch the % will be lowered to about 5 instead of 8, and if not the endlag might be reworked.
At the moment I'd say fireballs are a bit op considering that players actually have the ability to crutch with them

I've seen a lot of fundamentally-absent players do better than they should solely due to fireballs

Nickleo like I said in other threads we should not be basing if something being OP by low level play, only by high level play. I will tell you right now you can NOT crutch with Fireballs at high level of play. I've admittedly done this when first starting off but once you get to much better players they aren't OP in the slightest and can punish you HARD for using them at the wrong times. Low level play shouldn't matter at all, hell even mid level. If everyone followed low level play, then Diddy, Link, Toon Link, and Zelda would have been nerfed already.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

And boswer! He's a n00b killa haha

 

[Mr.Random]

And boswer! He's a n00b killa haha

Forgot about him. I've destroyed my casuals friends with Bowser and they think he's OP. I don't use him in tournament though because I don't main him.

 

[GhostAnime]

Since we're on the discussion, what exactly is the approach to counteracting Mario's fireballs?

 

[GeZ]

Since we're on the discussion, what exactly is the approach to counteracting Mario's fireballs?

Look for habits your opponent develops (dash attacking after fireball or grabbing after fireball) and do something to counter that. Habits are the bane of the high level.

 

[bandi]

Fireballs are clankable and easily powershielded. Mario does not need any nerfs or buffs, he is a well rounded character as is. People learned to mitigate Falco's laser approach and the same thing should be applied for the Fireballs. There's just so many options to evade them.

 

[Mr.Random]

Can this thread please die? They're not OP. Moving on

 

[casek]

I've gimped recoveries with them and will use them depending on situations but I've been using them less lately. As stated above, better players know how to work around them and they're not as useful.

That actually brings me to another question though, as someone who is still getting the hang of learning to play at a higher level - what is better for ledge guarding? Attempting to gimp their recovery/hit them with pills, or caping them?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If they are coming from above the ledge, cape them. If they are really low, fireball them.

 

[Angrycuban]

one thing to note about a fireball is he cant land without lag from a short hop which means he has to full hop if he wants to use an aerial after the fire ball or wave land or even instantly jab or dsmash or whatever upon landing. Full hop fireballs are super easy to just run under cause they bounce so high & short hop fire balls have landing lag and only travel on the ground so just jump over them. Just learn how to recognize and punish full hop fireballs and short hop fire balls and you'll be fine. Also if you play a character with a sword or some big disjointed hit box its pretty easy to just aerial right through them (marths Fair for example is perfect for this.)

 

[GeZ]

I've gimped recoveries with them and will use them depending on situations but I've been using them less lately. As stated above, better players know how to work around them and they're not as useful.

That actually brings me to another question though, as someone who is still getting the hang of learning to play at a higher level - what is better for ledge guarding? Attempting to gimp their recovery/hit them with pills, or caping them?

Bair and Nair also work depending on the recovery.