Do you think that smash 4 will see heavy characters in high level play?

[Jiggsbomb]

You're kinda at a disadvantage if you main a heavy character in melee, brawl, etc etc. So do you think we'll see good tournament results with heavy characters, like , , , .

 

[LeetLeaf]

If you watched The Come Up Apex qualifier tournament this weekend you would be happy to see a Donkey Kong make it to grand finals.

 

[Chuva]

I think it's important to take in consideration whether custom moves are allowed or not in the future, because heavies are probably the ones that benefit the most from them. Ganon, Charizard, Bowser, Ike and DK have some amazing customs, not sure about Dedede.

As of now, we already see good tournament results from them, notably DK, Ganon and Ike.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

I think it's important to take in consideration whether custom moves are allowed or not in the future, because heavies are probably the ones that benefit the most from them. Ganon, Charizard, Bowser, Ike and DK have some amazing customs, not sure about Dedede.

As of now, we already see good tournament results from them, notably DK, Ganon and Ike.

We've seen some good tournament result from bowser too. But I think that heavy characters will become a lot more popular if custom moves is aloud.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What about?

 

[ATH_]

Bowser has a lot of potential, but would take someone who can adapt extremely well to play.
Charizard is underrated but not necessarily above mid-tier to me. I can see someone getting a solid top 8 with a Charizard.
Ganon is interesting, some people have done well, some worse, it's an off and on thing.
Dedede is VERY strong with his Gordos killing SUPER early. However, he has a lot of disadvantages and counters. I main Yoshi and I've pressured Dedede's so many times it literally saddens me because I feel bad for doing it. Eggs just are way too good against him. Really any fast projectile with decent knockback can obliterate him. As long as it can also reflect Gordos like the Eggs.
DK though! DK is fantastic in this game. He has a decent amount of strings and can rack up damage super quick. DK is definitely one of the better heavy-weight characters in the game, if not the best for also being fast.

Just my quick opinion.

 

[RanserSSF4]

If you watched The Come Up Apex qualifier tournament this weekend you would be happy to see a Donkey Kong make it to grand finals.

is the video up on youtube? I want to see that.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Aren't there exceptions to the rule of "big characters = heavy?"
Big characters are easier targets, sure, but are they all heavy? Rosalina and ROB come to mind.
Is there a combination of these weight/size classes that work best?

 

[9Blades]

Who knows. The metagame is still very new.
However keep in mind the 3DS Smash tournament Nintendo had at Comic Con this year had two Bowsers in Grand Finals.

 

[LeetLeaf]

is the video up on youtube? I want to see that.

Here is the Wii U top 8 twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/v/3594029

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I think Bowser still has a lot of potential, definitely could make it. Ganondorf and Dedede aren't too bad either.

 

[warriorman222]

Define Heavyweight. Top what # or % of the cast?

 

[Raijinken]

We're still early, but so far showings by heavies have been pretty solid. And we also have balance patches to look forward to.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Not for a good amount of time...But we may see some DK or Bowser action. I don't suspect we'll be seeing many others (unless we get another patch).

 

[Karsticles]

I think it's important to take in consideration whether custom moves are allowed or not in the future, because heavies are probably the ones that benefit the most from them. Ganon, Charizard, Bowser, Ike and DK have some amazing customs, not sure about Dedede.

As of now, we already see good tournament results from them, notably DK, Ganon and Ike.

I think Bowser has pretty terrible customs outside of one move. The characters that really benefit from customs are zoners. DHD and WFT have some crazy customs.

 

[warriorman222]

I think Bowser has pretty terrible customs outside of one move. The characters that really benefit from customs are zoners. DHD and WFT have some crazy customs.

The DH mains say that default is best for everything except recovery. Apparently Mega Gunman and Zigzag are only good for teams, quickfire for dittos, Rising Clay for Rosalina, and High Explosive and Clay Break never.

I do agree with you on WFT, but DK and Villager have the 2 most broken customs in the game. Kong Cyclone single handedly wrecked Nairo once with 1 gimp and two kills with it. after that Clash Tournaments banned customs, I'm orety sure they're unbanned now.

Timber Counter takes under a second to plant, and you officialy shut down ground approach and beat Little Mac. The tree reflects projectiles and hurts you uf you hit it, and almost all moves that do enough famage to kill it and ignore countering are unreliable.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The rage mechanic benefits heavy characters more then anyone else. It gives them a really good come back potential.

 

[Thinkaman]

The DH mains say that default is best for everything except recovery. Apparently Mega Gunman and Zigzag are only good for teams, quickfire for dittos, Rising Clay for Rosalina, and High Explosive and Clay Break never.

At the risk of disagreeing with mains, I think Zig Zag Can is waaaaaaay superior to the default. It's just incredible.

Timber Counter takes under a second to plant, and you officialy shut down ground approach and beat Little Mac. The tree reflects projectiles and hurts you uf you hit it, and almost all moves that do enough famage to kill it and ignore countering are unreliable.

???????????

 

[ShinyReptar]

Although i do believe that the characters in this game are more balanced, based on all the different tier lists I've seen, heavy characters are still pretty lackluster (without customs at least). Based on the event hubs tier list, the only semi-heavy character that's high on the list is Lucario.

The rage mechanic benefits heavy characters more then anyone else. It gives them a really good come back potential.

I think it helps the smaller, lighter characters more. Diddy Kong can simply run circles around Bowser, whether Bowser has rage or not.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Although i do believe that the characters in this game are more balanced, based on all the different tier lists I've seen, heavy characters are still pretty lackluster (without customs at least). Based on the event hubs tier list, the only semi-heavy character that's high on the list is Lucario.

The event hubs tier list is laughable. Also, there's a decent number of good plus-weight characters in Smash 4 who are going to see high-level play, namely Yoshi, Falcon, and Ike(if customs are allowed). Those characters have a lot of classic heavy strengths without being quite as big targets as the "true heavies", who are nevertheless generally usable, especially with customs, but still struggle to stand out from the rest of the pack in terms of viability because of their classic heavy weaknesses.

 

[ShinyReptar]

The event hubs tier list is laughable. Also, there's a decent number of good plus-weight characters in Smash 4 who are going to see high-level play, namely Yoshi, Falcon, and Ike(if customs are allowed). Those characters have a lot of classic heavy strengths without being quite as big targets as the "true heavies", who are nevertheless generally usable, especially with customs, but still struggle to stand out from the rest of the pack in terms of viability because of their classic heavy weaknesses.

I was thinking more about true heavyweights, the big bodied, hard hitters. Until diddy gets (hopefully) needed in an upcoming patch, his presence at tournaments will be the bane of the slow, heavy characters. Just because a character takes a little longer to kill doesnt mean they're viable. It just means that the opposing character will take longer to end the match.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

What about?

There ain't no Snake any more...
(Btw, happy 20,000!)

 

[HeavyLobster]

I was thinking more about true heavyweights, the big bodied, hard hitters. Until diddy gets (hopefully) needed in an upcoming patch, his presence at tournaments will be the bane of the slow, heavy characters. Just because a character takes a little longer to kill doesnt mean they're viable. It just means that the opposing character will take longer to end the match.

Most of the true heavies are basically low-mid tier in terms of viability. They're good enough to have a fighting chance in tourneys, but take more work to win with than the better characters in the game. I also don't really see Diddy as being so overwhelming that he really does anything to invalidate these characters to a greater extent than the other top tiers. Also, survivability does matter in this game because Rage means all it takes is one good attack string for a heavy to get back in the game, and even high-tiers get hit sometimes.

 

[warriorman222]

At the risk of disagreeing with mains, I think Zig Zag Can is waaaaaaay superior to the default. It's just incredible.



???????????

First, How is ZigZag better, maybe i just suck with it, like i do with all cans.

Second: Let me put it Pokemon style:
Villager uses Timber!
He Plants a seed!
Samus uses Dash Attack!
Timber's ability Seed Trip makes Physical attacks fail and trip you!
Villager waters the seed!
It grows into Timber Counter!
Samus gets up!
Samus Charges Charge Shot!
Villager uses Taunt!
The opponent fell for the taunt!(aka they get salty and tryhard)
Samus uses Charge Shot!
Timber's ability Timber Counter reflected the shot!
It's Super Effective!
Samus fainted!

tl;dr seed trips foes and the tree is the equivalent of a mediocre-in-every-way reflector.

And could someone tell me what top number or percent of the cast counts as heavyweight, or is it select characters?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Come Up grand finals: vs

Shulk is heavy too, you know, his default weight is just slightly less than

Also, Ally and M2K teamed up at the tournament, they went up against Blitz and Helldew

Blitz and Helldew took a game off them. Ally and M2K still won 2-1, but it was hype to see a team with Ike do so well. If not for singles, I think the heavies have a lot of potential in doubles due to their awesome KO power helping their teammates in a pinch.

 

[Kwam$tack$]

definitely. I played for hours last night against this player that only used heavies (bowser & charizard), and its like no matter how much you can hurt them they can out damage you in a second. Let it be a charged smash to someone with some super armor and you're done. Most of their attacks have high priority, and some (like Charizard's forward+b are extremely powerful for how fast they come out. They can live past 150% and can kill as low as 50% sometime. Thats dangerous. Its making me rethink my entire competitive gameplan

 

[Cpt.]

I remember seeing a really good Bowser, I think it was Rend, on a Tourney Locator 3DS tournament. So yeah Bowser is viable. Not sure about the others. Ganondorf seems really bad, like brawl , so def not him. I know 3DeDe also did well on a 3DS Tourney Locator tournament, so perhaps.

 

[samoht45]

You're kinda at a disadvantage if you main a heavy character in melee, brawl, etc etc. So do you think we'll see good tournament results with heavy characters, like , , , .

The balance of Smash 4 is so well done for such a huge cast of characters and heavies are absolutely brutal and if played properly can absolutely WRECK "top tier" characters. I would not be surprised at all if after several big tournaments we see several heavy/slow characters in the top echelons of the tier lists. But **** tier lists. Play who you like and make them work. That's the truth of Smash Bros.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

The balance of Smash 4 is so well done for such a huge cast of characters and heavies are absolutely brutal and if played properly can absolutely WRECK "top tier" characters. I would not be surprised at all if after several big tournaments we see several heavy/slow characters in the top echelons of the tier lists. But **** tier lists. Play who you like and make them work. That's the truth of Smash Bros.

Well jigglypuff is not a heavy character!

 

[HeavyLobster]

I remember seeing a really good Bowser, I think it was Rend, on a Tourney Locator 3DS tournament. So yeah Bowser is viable. Not sure about the others. Ganondorf seems really bad, like brawl , so def not him. I know 3DeDe also did well on a 3DS Tourney Locator tournament, so perhaps.

Ganondorf's actually been getting some good tourney results, and holds up decently well against most of the cast when he has customs enabled. Will's DK just got 2nd in a pretty huge tourney, beating both M2K and NAKAT, so I'd say he's viable. DK's shield pressure is scary good.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Ganondorf's actually been getting some good tourney results, and holds up decently well against most of the cast when he has customs enabled. Will's DK just got 2nd in a pretty huge tourney, beating both M2K and NAKAT, so I'd say he's viable. DK's shield pressure is scary good.

Would love to see that DK play, but unfornately, it's not on youtube yet (Could be wrong)

 

[HeavyLobster]

Would love to see that DK play, but unfornately, it's not on youtube yet (Could be wrong)

It actually is, and you can find links in this thread.

 

[Zethoro]

I think Bowser has pretty terrible customs outside of one move. The characters that really benefit from customs are zoners. DHD and WFT have some crazy customs.

I wouldn't even go that far; all of Bowser's customs are inferior to his normal moves in some way, but that's just my opinion.

And also my opinion, I think heavy characters will see quite a bit of use this time. I think all five of the super heavies (Bowser, DDD, DK, Charizard, Bowser Jr.) have a shot, along with Yoshi, and Shulk (they're heavies.)
As a matter of fact, I think most heavies have a better shot than a lot of the lightweights. There are notable exceptions (Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Shiek) but a lot of the heavies are solid characters. Brawl had Snake and Dedede, but that was it. Will we see a game dominated by heavies? probably not, but I think there's hope.

 

[LiteralGrill]

You know there is an entire thread for discussion impressions on characters?

This kind of discussion probably belongs there.

 

[warriorman222]

I wouldn't even go that far; all of Bowser's customs are inferior to his normal moves in some way, but that's just my opinion.

And also my opinion, I think heavy characters will see quite a bit of use this time. I think all five of the super heavies (Bowser, DDD, DK, Charizard, Bowser Jr.) have a shot, along with Yoshi, and Shulk (they're heavies.)
As a matter of fact, I think most heavies have a better shot than a lot of the lightweights. There are notable exceptions (Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Shiek) but a lot of the heavies are solid characters. Brawl had Snake and Dedede, but that was it. Will we see a game dominated by heavies? probably not, but I think there's hope.

All customs moves are inferior to the original in some way. King Cyclone sacrifices multi-hit, Timber Counter sacrifices power from cutting the tree.

Also Fire Breath should never be use much so FirE Roar is practically a direct Upgrade.

 

[Enrel]

I don't see them as in quite the disadvantage as you may say. They seem perfectly fine to me.

 

[Neclord]

Good Thing about this new Smash game is, even if some characters don't have a lot of success at the moment, balance patches can be easily applied to this game and change everything. Even game mechanics could change a bit in the future.

 

[Altea77]

The event hubs tier list is laughable. Also, there's a decent number of good plus-weight characters in Smash 4 who are going to see high-level play, namely Yoshi, Falcon, and Ike(if customs are allowed). Those characters have a lot of classic heavy strengths without being quite as big targets as the "true heavies", who are nevertheless generally usable, especially with customs, but still struggle to stand out from the rest of the pack in terms of viability because of their classic heavy weaknesses.

How is the eventhubs list laughable? Sure it's not 100% accurate, as none are yet, but for the most part it matches to what most people on this site have been saying. If you're looking for laughable, look at the Japan one.

 

[Dre89]

Heavies have mostly been buffed as the game is generally more balanced than previous version but the engine still favours speed. The extended hitstun and landing lag has magnified their comboability and landing issues. The new ledge mechanics have helped their **** recoveries though.

Heavies will drop off in viabilty as the game becomes more defensive and people start fleshing out frame data more. In saying that they'll probably be more viable than they have been in previous installments, but if you're play-to-win there's no real reason to play a heavy when you can play characters with good frame data.

The rage mechanic benefits heavy characters more then anyone else. It gives them a really good come back potential.

It doesn't really. Heavies could always KO early with their laggy moves. The problem has always been landing them, which rage doesn't help. What rage actually does is make fast moves like aerials and tilts that weren't really designed as KO moves become legitimate KO threats. This probably actually benefits fast characters more, as they're the ones who have issues KOing early, and they normally have a lot more of the aforementioned moves that benefit from rage.

 

[HeavyLobster]

How is the eventhubs list laughable? Sure it's not 100% accurate, as none are yet, but for the most part it matches to what most people on this site have been saying. If you're looking for laughable, look at the Japan one.

Until very recently it had Donkey Kong as worst character in the game, and now he's second worst. No one on this site thought he was anywhere near that bad, and he placed 2nd in probably the biggest Smash U tourney yet. To be honest just about all tier lists are laughable at this point, and I agree that the Japan one is probably worse than the EventHubs one, which looks less terrible now than it did when I last checked it.(doesn't happen often)