Do you think Little Mac requires heavy fundamentals

[Aphistemi]

Do you think Little Mac requires heavy fundamentals? I've asked myself that many times, and sorry to say, but imo its no. this character is just an online warrior. let me explain why.

The Neutral Game:

Little Mac's neutral game is his speed, attack, and armor. you have to respect a lot of this, or risk losing a stock, due to all of this. he takes control of the stage against most characters, you can't really zone him out because he's fast on his feet, 1 or 2 perfect shields and he's there in your face.

Respecting and Frame Data:

This has to be the most annoying thing about Little Mac, it's not his K.O punch, nor his armor, but the amount of respect you need to give to this character. He can forward, Down, And Up smash for free. his knockback from these smashes forces opponents to move back in such a rate your grabs or attacks whiffs.

he is safe on block, especially online. Even on perfect shielding, because his frame from the smash already recovers before you can poke him with one of your plus frames, if you manage to squeeze in an attack, he's already preparing for another smash attack for armor. beating whatever you throw at him because you think after blocking a smash attack especially on perfect shielding you would be safe.

I've killed many players on for glory just using the C stick. with this character.

Edge Guarding:

A lot of characters requires some good amount of reads to keep your opponent off the stage, little mac shuts down one option due to armor. and that's attacking while getting on the stage, if you get up normally and try to block (hopefully to shield an attack into grab) but again, the force of his smashes send you flying back down, if you try to get up and roll your way onto the stage, his down smash sweeps both sides with decent amount of range. (enough to cover rolling),

your last option is to jump, but this is bad especially for floaty characters, little mac is fast and can track where you land, and either up smash you, or bait the airdodge. then attack.

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Despite having all this, armor, K.O move, decent weight. counter that helps him recover + doubles the damage, how come I barely see any little macs placing top 5 or even top 3? because imo little mac is a online character that requires little to no fundamentals, just basic smash stuff even causals would know.

If you know how to use the C stick, spot dodge, roll, and make simple reads, then you are winning with little mac, but without input delay, frame data and punishing is easier to handle.

Little Mac mains, please tell me there is more to this than what I stated, like tell me if you have a plan for every matchup with him other than abusing forward smash. because imo any one can do this for free with armor and win.

For example I main Game and Watch, my mind is set. I need to worry about:

1. being extremely weak.
2. dealing damage without being killed early, since bacon is only really good damage builder when you are edge guarding or if your opponent has a nasty habit of jumping in all the time. you need to approach with caution.
3. Worry about which way to DI all the time because if I don't, I'm dying at 80%
4. knowing when to attack.

All little mac players need to worry about is staying on the stage. so much less pressure and thinking required..

 

[AreJay25]

... You know what? I was gonna write something in response but I'll just let someone else handle it....

 

[Aphistemi]

... You know what? I was gonna write something in response but I'll just let someone else handle it....

Give me your opinion

 

[Siledh]

This should be interesting.

For my opinion, I think you overestimate his armour and ability to defeat zoning.

A well placed bomb will hamper his approach and open him up to punishment and Link's other projectiles.

Which means it is not all about his armour and LM mains will have to have strategies to beat that.

ETA: Don't forget his highly gimpable recovery.

 

[Aphistemi]

This should be interesting.

For my opinion, I think you overestimate his armour and ability to defeat zoning.

A well placed bomb will hamper his approach and open him up to punishment and Link's other projectiles.

Which means it is not all about his armour and LM mains will have to have strategies to beat that.

ETA: Don't forget his highly gimpable recovery.

I'm not necessarily calling him overpowered, but the strategy, mindset and fundamentals it takes to master this character is extremely easy imo giving what he's capable of, if used with common sense and not just using forward B off the stage. especially online, i am not talking offline

I'm aware of his gimpable recovery which seems to be his only major weakness,

 

[Doruge]

At a high level, yes, Mac requires very good fundamentals. If you make one mistake against a good player you basically die. Low level For Glory play is obviously a different story.

 

[Siledh]

I'm not necessarily calling him overpowered, but the strategy, mindset and fundamentals it takes to master this character is extremely easy imo giving what he's capable of, if used with common sense and not just using forward B off the stage. especially online, i am not talking offline

I'm aware of his gimpable recovery which seems to be his only major weakness,

Your argument is that he is an internet warrior because he requires no real fundamentals and so is easy to win with online.

But that's not the case, as Doruge points out. At low levels most characters are pretty good. Link? Spam the **** out. Zard? Flareblitz. And so on. It's easy to find a gimmick and run with it, but at high level play, even on FG, that gimmick will be known and accounted for.

And let's not forget LM has terrible air game with the exception of that one aerial combo, so take him into the air and juggle him into an USmash and death.

 

[Tino]

Uh...shouldn't this be on the Little Mac forum?

 

[Nexin]

Little Mac is unique in that he is simultaneously a very easy character to pick up but a very difficult character to play well. To inexperienced players, he is a character who has a massive number of strengths, but to more experienced players, he is a character who has a massive number of weaknesses. That isn't to say that he is useless in tournaments. I'd say that he could be extremely dangerous in the hands of an extremely patient player that knew both how to keep Little Mac on the ground and how to get him back to his feet safely should he get knocked into the air.

You also mentioned that Little Mac only had to worry about getting knocked offstage, which isn't true in the slightest. It may have been a long time since I have played Little Mac, but there were a number of things that I remember being concerned about all the time, such as losing the neutral game, getting grabbed, approaching opponents who are zoning me from the edge of the stage, and navigating stages with platforms safely. As a Game and Watch player, you probably aren't anywhere near as concerned about any of those, especially the last one. It isn't fair to say that Little Mac requires less thinking to play well simply because he doesn't have to worry about the same things as your main.

 

[PHYTO-1]

I'm not necessarily calling him overpowered, but the strategy, mindset and fundamentals it takes to master this character is extremely easy imo giving what he's capable of, if used with common sense and not just using forward B off the stage. especially online, i am not talking offline

I'm aware of his gimpable recovery which seems to be his only major weakness,

>master this character

if you think that , then this is probably just another whine thread.

 

[Aphistemi]

>master this character

if you think that , then this is probably just another whine thread.

It's called having an opinion, Seeing your profile you main little mac, intsead of saying "whine" you could explain your little mac exp with me, since I am interested in knowing the mindset of a little mac player.

I don't main him, nor secondary him, people always say diddy kong only needs to hoohah to win, but I am seeing a lot more than just that in high level play matches. like ridiculous amount of reading, reflexes. and spacing with his growing limbs.

so I ask, what is going on inside a little mac main's head, what is his bread and butter? what is his mu xp with other characters like? etc, just because I stated some stuff about little mac doesn't mean I'm whining, this is the character, he has armor, speed, killing power, K.O move, these are just things I am stating, doesn't mean I'm whining.

Little Mac is unique in that he is simultaneously a very easy character to pick up but a very difficult character to play well. To inexperienced players, he is a character who has a massive number of strengths, but to more experienced players, he is a character who has a massive number of weaknesses. That isn't to say that he is useless in tournaments. I'd say that he could be extremely dangerous in the hands of an extremely patient player that knew both how to keep Little Mac on the ground and how to get him back to his feet safely should he get knocked into the air.

You also mentioned that Little Mac only had to worry about getting knocked offstage, which isn't true in the slightest. It may have been a long time since I have played Little Mac, but there were a number of things that I remember being concerned about all the time, such as losing the neutral game, getting grabbed, approaching opponents who are zoning me from the edge of the stage, and navigating stages with platforms safely. As a Game and Watch player, you probably aren't anywhere near as concerned about any of those, especially the last one. It isn't fair to say that Little Mac requires less thinking to play well simply because he doesn't have to worry about the same things as your main.

This is a good post. thanks for sharing

 

[X-FACTOR]

Yea, he's a pretty bad character.

 

[Siledh]

Of course you're seeing more than just the Hoo-Hah. It got nerfed in the last patch to the point it is not possible.

 

[Nexin]

No problem @ Aphistemi . Personally, I don't think that he deserves all the hate that he receives, so when I saw this thread, I wanted to state my opinion on the matter.

Anyways, outside of maybe posting the important details of the Palutena (my main) vs Little Mac matchup later, I probably won't say much else on the issue. As I said earlier, it has been a long time since I've played Little Mac, so if I try to go into more detail, I'm probably going to get a good number of things wrong. I'd rather let an actual Little Mac main explain the character.

 

[Solreth]

Heres the thing, if you think he is overpowered, then demonstrate it. What is more likely? That the character is having trouble representing on the highest echelon competitive play in spite of being overpowered, or that he is quite difficult to win with at that level of play. He isn't bottom tier by any stretch, but the thing you may not recognize is that he lacks in a lot more than gimpability. Lack of aerials (notable ones) makes his combo/followup game more limited. You have to get creative past a basic dash-dash attack. He has the worst grab range (tied with ganondorf) in the game, making him very vulnerable to more defensive strats. A single mistake, be it spacing or less, against many matchups can result in a 0-dead combo from center to off stage. Asking if the character requires good fundamentals really depends on the following, "How badly do you want to survive?". Playing mac is committing to the idea that no such thing as a stock lead exists for you. If you are ahead 137% damage over your opponent, the game is still one mistake away from over for you. Consistency is key, you must be perfect and apply the tech the character has. Perfect Pivot to up-tilt is a big combo starter, its also demanding. As is wavedancing, boost grabbing, and pivot smashing. These are required to combat short hop zoning tactics and more. Beyond fundamentals, he also requires very precise tech execution. The tools are there, but to be consistent across all categories is a rarity for players, much less to also be dedicated to a character so poorly regarded. This is why currently we do not see many macs making progress in upper echelons.

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Heres the thing, if you think he is overpowered, then demonstrate it. What is more likely? That the character is having trouble representing on the highest echelon competitive play in spite of being overpowered, or that he is quite difficult to win with at that level of play. He isn't bottom tier by any stretch, but the thing you may not recognize is that he lacks in a lot more than gimpability. Lack of aerials (notable ones) makes his combo/followup game more limited. You have to get creative past a basic dash-dash attack. He has the worst grab range (tied with ganondorf) in the game, making him very vulnerable to more defensive strats. A single mistake, be it spacing or less, against many matchups can result in a 0-dead combo from center to off stage. Asking if the character requires good fundamentals really depends on the following, "How badly do you want to survive?". Playing mac is committing to the idea that no such thing as a stock lead exists for you. If you are ahead 137% damage over your opponent, the game is still one mistake away from over for you. Consistency is key, you must be perfect and apply the tech the character has. Perfect Pivot to up-tilt is a big combo starter, its also demanding. As is wavedancing, boost grabbing, and pivot smashing. These are required to combat short hop zoning tactics and more. Beyond fundamentals, he also requires very precise tech execution. The tools are there, but to be consistent across all categories is a rarity for players, much less to also be dedicated to a character so poorly regarded. This is why currently we do not see many macs making progress in upper echelons.

It's kinda cool, in a way, because sometimes he'll make random appearances in bracket when a player wants to have some fun, and it's very hype! I personally use him as a go to "alright, my main is pissing me off right now, I just wanna punch hard" character. I agree that while he may seem brain dead easy, he actually thrives on not just good, but great fundamentals. In other words, the classic "Don't get hit" should be a mantra recited often when playing Little Mac.