Do you intentionally not use PK Fire?

[Tahu Mata]

I've been using Ness ever since 64, and he's my 2nd best character in Smash 4 alongside Shulk.

As I'm sure most of you already know, the most common thing people seem to complain about with Ness is PK Fire, seeing as most of them on For Glory tend to do this in an attempt to get a down throw follow up (mostly with f-air).

So with Ness, one of the things with the way I play him is that I don't use PK Fire at all. I do this to show that he's just as good without it, and that's not all going for him. You gotta make good use of all his moves to use him effectively.

Do any of you also use Ness this way?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I don't use PK Fire a lot because it's not that good.

 

[Chaizord]

I use it to punish, which is one of the times it should actually be used.

 

[kennypu]

PK Fire is good for punishes, hitting opponents off stage, as well as catching them as they land.

 

[Lochy]

I think not using it at all is just limiting your tool kit. PK fire is used as a punish tool. You don't just randomly throw it out.

 

[Tahu Mata]

I think not using it at all is just limiting your tool kit. PK fire is used as a punish tool. You don't just randomly throw it out.

Now that you say that, I have been thinking of actually implementing it into my Ness instead of completely disregarding it.
I do have experience with PK Fire and its uses, so I just gotta show the best way to use it - as a punish tool.

 

[Earthbound360]

Please stop caring what other people think about you. Use it when necessary, abuse it if they can't figure out what to do against it. Unless you're refraining from using it to rub it into their faces that you're still better than them.

I don't use PKF too much just because it's a very dangerous move to use. It's rather high risk/high reward because it's got a year of startup AND end lag on it.

 

[Tahu Mata]

Please stop caring what other people think about you. Use it when necessary, abuse it if they can't figure out what to do against it. Unless you're refraining from using it to rub it into their faces that you're still better than them.

I don't use PKF too much just because it's a very dangerous move to use. It's rather high risk/high reward because it's got a year of startup AND end lag on it.

As for rubbing it into people's faces, no, I'm in no way that kind of person, so I'm sorry if I ended up looking like that.

And yeah, I realised I gotta stop refraining myself from doing some things because of what some people might think, so I'll start to keep using it. Thanks for the advice.

 

[VentusNeos]

As people above have stated, use it for only punishes really. If you prefer to use it to catch landings or other such things, by all means do that. How you play Ness is how you play him. If you win, then either you're doing something right, or your opponent is doing something wrong. Typically, I'll use it sparingly, like I don't use it for the neutral(Unless I Lag Cancel the FH PK fire), but I'll throw out a pivot PK fire if an opponent is chasing me occasionally as a mixup.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I don't actively handicap myself by avoiding it the way I avoid PK Flash, but PK Fire is great for catching rolls as well as a hard-counter to planking (Villagers, for example) and is even able to wall out several moves and projectiles. (It ignites on shadow ball as well as TLink's boomerangs.

It doesn't take too much practice to learn how to use PK Fire to duck under a bunch of moves like this:

Falco's laser, pikmin, shadow ball, etc. are all game, even shield breaker can be dodged (usually the airborne approach kind). If you think of it as a move that can be used like "counter" against tall attacks or attacks you can duck under, it gains a lot more utility. It dodges attacks and immediately punishes.

Edit: Sorry for the quality, but if it is hard to tell, just know that the startup half of the animation with the back-bend is actually very quick (PK Fire is initiated when the missile reaches the closest half of the platform.), and because Ness' hurtbox moves backwards rather than forwards, it is actually more forgiving than actually ducking. (Ness' head moves forward and down when ducking.)​

 

[Earthbound360]

I don't actively handicap myself by avoiding it the way I avoid PK Flash, but PK Fire is great for catching rolls as well as a hard-counter to planking (Villagers, for example) and is even able to wall out several moves and projectiles. (It ignites on shadow ball as well as TLink's boomerangs.

It doesn't take too much practice to learn how to use PK Fire to duck under a bunch of moves like this:

Falco's laser, pikmin, shadow ball, etc. are all game, even shield breaker can be dodged (usually the airborne approach kind). If you think of it as a move that can be used like "counter" against tall attacks or attacks you can duck under, it gains a lot more utility. It dodges attacks and immediately punishes.

Edit: Sorry for the quality, but if it is hard to tell, just know that the startup half of the animation with the back-bend is actually very quick (PK Fire is initiated when the missile reaches the closest half of the platform.), and because Ness' hurtbox moves backwards rather than forwards, it is actually more forgiving than actually ducking. (Ness' head moves forward and down when ducking.)​

This is really funny. I never thought of using PKF like that. It's like using a low projectile against a high projectile in Mortal Kombat.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Using it in FG can be risky if there's any lag at all, but offline I can do it every time against a ton of projectiles and attacks. I'd like to make a running list of all the projectiles and attacks that can be dodged with it, sometime. I intuitively know which I can dodge, just by sight, but intuitive knowledge isn't easy to convey.

That said, it is extremely easy to do against even fully charged shadow balls, due to the oscillating trajectory they take. Even if you time it too soon, you can still ignite PK Fire on the shadow ball, nullifying it.

You can really start with this list and just cross out the ones Ness' crouch is too tall for. (PK Fire's backbend and Ness' crouch are the same height.)

A couple I recognise (with untested things crossed out) right off the bat include:
​

WFT ​

• • Neutral B (All levels of charge)
  • Initial jab
  • Grab
  • FSmash

Fox/Falco ​

• • Neutral B

ZSS ​

• • Neutral B (All levels of charge)
  • FSmash
  • Side B (Only if you are crouched under the thin part of the whip. You will get hit by the small ending blast, and by the gun if you are too close)
  • Ftilt (Non-angled)
  • Initial Jab
  • Dash Attack (Credit: SyncNatsyu)
  • Grab (Credit:SaladBowl)

Pit/Dark Pit ​

• • Neutral B (Non-angled)

Samus ​

• • Smash Side B (NOT the ending explosion)
  • Neutral B (Uncharged)
  • Side B (Super Missile)

Robin ​

• • Neutral B (Uncharged and full charge. Will dodge projectile of 2nd level, but will get hit by the ending Xplosion)
  • FSmash
  • Utilt (Credit: Jack SH)
  • SideB (Credit: Jack SH) (Will dodge initial fireball, but not ending projectile)

Megaman ​

• • Side B (Will dodge projectile, but will get hit by explosion if nearby)
  • Jab/Ftilt
  • FSmash (Credit: Salad Bowl) (Uncharged)

ROB ​

• • Neutral B (At all levels, Non-angled)
  • Ftilt (Non-angled)
  • Standing Grab

Mii Gunner ​

• • First half of FSmash (Machine gun fire, but will get hit by ending blast)
  • Neutral B1 (Uncharged)
  • Ftilt (UNCONFIRMED, may only be the tip of the hitbox)

Diddy ​

• • Neutral B (Depends on the charge, but crouch will always dodge the bullet when it is at it's apex aka near Diddy)
  • Side B (Only at the apex of the jump)
  • Utilt (Credit: Jack SH)
  • FSmash (Credit: Jack SH)

Link/Toon Link ​

• • Neutral B (Depends on the charge, but crouch will always dodge the arrow at it's apex aka near Link/TL)
  • Side B (Link only, and only when not angled down.)
  • Link Grab (Seems inconsistent, but I have done it)
  • Nair, Bair, and Fair (Credit: JackSH)

Zelda ​

• • Down B (Only if you are in contact with the phantom before he swings his sword, so you must be relatively close to the portal. You will take no damage, but be pushed back)
  • Grab
  • FSmash (First half and only when you are right next to Zelda, but will get hit by the ending explosion)

Sheik ​

• • Neutral B (Grounded)

Ganondorf ​

• • Down B (Credit: ZeroJanitor) (Grounded)
  • Ftilt (Credit: My Smash Corner)
  • Jab (Credit: JackSH)
  • FSmash (Credit: JackSH) (Inconsistent, may have to do with timing)
  • Bair (Credit: JackSH)
  • Uair (Credit: JackSH)
  • Dash Grab (Credit: JackSH)

Marth/Lucina ​

• • Neutral B (You will dodge the latter half of the blade, but only at the ending half of the active hitbox)
  • Standing Grab (Credit: SyncNatsyu)

Ike ​

• • Initial Jab
  • Standing Grab (Timing is strict. Must crouch right as grab comes out)
  • Ftilt (Non-angled)

DHD ​

• • Down B
  • Side B (Credit: My SmashCorner)

DK ​

• • Utilt (Only if you are in front of DK)
  • Ftilt (When not angled down)

Little Mac ​

• • Ftilt (If you are close enough Mac will actually travel past you)
  • Straight FSmash (If you are close enough Mac will actually travel past you)
  • KO Punch (Credit: SyncNatsyu) (You are still affected by wind hitbox, and if you are fast enough you can rest before hitbox comes out (credit to Jack SH) )
  • Neutral B (Credit: My Smash Corner) (May have to time the crouch due to the bounce)
  • Initial Jab (Credit: Jack SH) (Will get hit by second hitbox, but can rest out of muti-jab)
  • Utilt (Credit: Jack SH) (Only if you are in front of Mac)
  • Grab/Dash grab (Credit: Jack SH)

C. Falcon ​

• • Ftilt (Non-angled)
  • FSmash (Tip of elbow hitbox)
  • DSmash (Foot hitbox)
  • Initial Jab
  • Standing Grab

Rosalina & Luma ​

• • Neutral B
  • FSmash
  • Ftilt (Credit: My Smash Corner)

Luigi ​

• • Neutral B (Credit: My Smash Corner)

Peach ​

• • Standing Grab (Credit: My Smash Corner) (Must time the crouch as grab comes out)
  • Jab (Credit: SaladBowl)
  • Utilt (Credit: SaladBowl)

Bowser Jr. ​

• • Neutral B (Credit: My Smash Corner) (Must be timed so you crouch almost right before it hits you)
  • FSmash (Credit: My Smash Corner) (Again, crouch must be timed right before move starts)

Bowser ​

• • Side B (Credit: My Smash Corner) (Must be timed so you crouch right as claw comes out, and you cannot be too close to Bowser)

King Dedede​

• • Utilt (Credit: Jack SH)
  • USmash (Credit: Jack SH) (Must be in front of Dedede)

Ness ​

• • Utilt (Credit: Jack SH)
  • Ftilt (Credit: Jack SH) (Inconsistent, and only possible if angled upwards)

Shulk ​

• • 1st and 2nd Jab (Credit: Jack SH)
  • Ftilt (Credit: Jack SH) (Only when right next to Shulk's feet)
  • Grab/Dash grab (Credit: Jack SH)

 

[Tahu Mata]

Using it in FG can be risky if there's any lag at all, but offline I can do it every time against a ton of projectiles and attacks. I'd like to make a running list of all the projectiles and attacks that can be dodged with it, sometime. I intuitively know which I can dodge, just by sight, but intuitive knowledge isn't easy to convey.

That said, it is extremely easy to do against even fully charged shadow balls, due to the oscillating trajectory they take. Even if you time it too soon, you can still ignite PK Fire on the shadow ball, nullifying it.

You can really start with this list and just cross out the ones Ness' crouch is too tall for. (PK Fire's backbend and Ness' crouch are the same height.)

A couple I recognise (with untested things crossed out) right off the bat include:
​

Wow, I didn't even know you could use PK Fire for that. Thanks, this is really useful!

 

[Earthbound360]

Using it in FG can be risky if there's any lag at all, but offline I can do it every time against a ton of projectiles and attacks. I'd like to make a running list of all the projectiles and attacks that can be dodged with it, sometime. I intuitively know which I can dodge, just by sight, but intuitive knowledge isn't easy to convey.

That said, it is extremely easy to do against even fully charged shadow balls, due to the oscillating trajectory they take. Even if you time it too soon, you can still ignite PK Fire on the shadow ball, nullifying it.

You can really start with this list and just cross out the ones Ness' crouch is too tall for. (PK Fire's backbend and Ness' crouch are the same height.)

A couple I recognise (with untested things crossed out) right off the bat include:
​

Interesting. Can we get a cleaned up version of that list?

Also, are you sure Sheik's needles work? I believe they stagger in height when charged.

 

[The 0ne]

Wow that's amazing! Community inginuity at its finest! I might actually end my Ness hiatus because of this. Thanks for sharing, dude!

 

[_clinton]

Ness' duck has been nerfed in this game, but he can still duck under a good deal of projectiles. Kind of shocked to see that fire can duck under Falco's laser considering how Ness can't seem to duck under it anymore from what I've played.

 

[Plebiscuit]

It doesn't take too much practice to learn how to use PK Fire to duck under a bunch of moves like this:

This is absolutely brilliant. And here I was thinking Ness was a strong but (relatively) shallow character. There's so much potential here.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't actively handicap myself by avoiding it the way I avoid PK Flash, but PK Fire is great for catching rolls as well as a hard-counter to planking (Villagers, for example) and is even able to wall out several moves and projectiles. (It ignites on shadow ball as well as TLink's boomerangs.

It doesn't take too much practice to learn how to use PK Fire to duck under a bunch of moves like this:

Falco's laser, pikmin, shadow ball, etc. are all game, even shield breaker can be dodged (usually the airborne approach kind). If you think of it as a move that can be used like "counter" against tall attacks or attacks you can duck under, it gains a lot more utility. It dodges attacks and immediately punishes.

Edit: Sorry for the quality, but if it is hard to tell, just know that the startup half of the animation with the back-bend is actually very quick (PK Fire is initiated when the missile reaches the closest half of the platform.), and because Ness' hurtbox moves backwards rather than forwards, it is actually more forgiving than actually ducking. (Ness' head moves forward and down when ducking.)​

I learned something here. Thanks.

 

[FuPoo]

thats hilarious

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness is an A-Tier croucher. That back-bend is nearly as good as it gets!

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness is an A-Tier croucher. That back-bend is nearly as good as it gets!

That's really cool. It actually kinda blows my mind at how low Ness gets. I mean, as low as Jiggs and Kirby? Really? O_o

 

[Asa]

pretty sure most people complain about bthrow instead lol

pkf isn't that big of a deal

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

That's really cool. It actually kinda blows my mind at how low Ness gets. I mean, as low as Jiggs and Kirby? Really? O_o

Way to go, Ness, you da real limbo MVP

 

[L9999]

.....it never occurred to me. I have done crouching, but this? I learn something every day like they say

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

It's my signature move. If I get a capture card I'll make a montage. I save it, in general, for catching people off-guard and getting the single game-ending PK Fire I need.

 

[pk_melee]

I don't use it much myself. But then I played a Ness ditto yesterday and got wrecked by PK Fire spam. I'd get hit 5 times in a row. Ugh. Makes me want to use it more.

 

[Lukingordex]

lol Ness' PK Fire can duck under Sheik's needles?

IS THIS A THING?

 

[Earthbound360]

lol Ness' PK Fire can duck under Sheik's needles?

IS THIS A THING?

I highly doubt it gets him THAT low sadly.

 

[thesage]

I use pk fire all the time to punish rolls online since my jello fingers suck at spacing things when there's input lag involved. XD

 

[Kevandre]

In general with Smash I believe in a "Use don't abuse" playstyle. A lot of Ness players will use PK Fire every chance, but I don't find that fun at all, it's the same with every character. Characters who have one particular OP move and thus every player of that character pretty much exclusively use that are boring AF to me. Learn the whole kit and use everything without spamming

 

[Arbok_]

Personally, I use pk fire only in certain matchups. I would never use pk fire against a Sonic or ZSS player, but I would use pk fire against characters like Ganondorf.

 

[Cougar Hunter]

I use pk Fire

Then wen my opponent expect pk fire i stop use pk fire

 

[Rocket-Bot]

I use PK Fire to start combos, and to punish like people are saying.

But It's a really good edge guarding tool simply because the opponent in midair will try to get out of the PK Fire by going up, which follows into another PK fire.

 

[BBC]

Yea it's a god tier op edge guarding move , if you ask me ness shouldn't have 14 kill options plz nerf

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness is high risk, high reward, and does best when people are unable to see the risks.

 

[KingNemba]

I use it to punish and stuff. Stuff as in to keep from enemy advancement. For me its his second greatest attribute, right below PK thunder. I use it wisely but although its not good to spam, it is the easiest way to rack up damage when used effectively. You can get someone from 0 to 50 fast with a solid few well aimed throws. I try to lead them into bats or fair rather than dgrab.

 

[FreezeWaffle]

The only good times to use PKF are either to catch a roll or to stun your opponent in the air. If you it them with it while they're grounded, they can just roll away. If they're in the air, they can't do anything, setting up for whatever you please that's possible in like 5 seconds. Also, it's a decent edgeguarding tool against characters with bad vertical recoveries. They just go up and get hit by it over and over until they die
Otherwise, I never use it. Ness has way better neutral game tools and plays better against grounded opponents without it.

 

[Earthbound360]

Getting someone right as they come out of a roll or spot dodge with PKF is super risky, but they're pretty friggin dead if you hit them. I go for this risk sometimes.

 

[BaeBraham]

EarthboundEnigma blowing all the minds. Good stuff.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Getting someone right as they come out of a roll or spot dodge with PKF is super risky, but they're pretty friggin dead if you hit them. I go for this risk sometimes.

It is super easy, on Samus, lol