Do you feel Sheik is truly top tier?

[Rango the Mercenary]

Almost no endlag on most attacks, Needle camping, Fair combos, Bouncing Fish power, recovery, gimping potential.

What are her weaknesses?

 

[pershona]

She's actually surprisingly light which means a lot of attacks could kill her early.
She's also one of the hardest characters to play at a top level in this game imo.

 

[gsmVoiD]

Just like pershona said, her skill cap (along with her skill curve) is ridiculously high. There are many ways to play Sheik & each way has it's own advantages and disadvantages & it's not easy to learn when to use which.

Adding on to that, I believe Sheik players suffer if they don't know how to get the most optimal punish. If you can't rack percentage to the best of your ability, or take that small opportunity to get a kill, then it will eventually add up making a game much more difficult than it could be.

Outside of the skill curve, difficulty killing (especially when your opponent knows the percentage for Sheik's kill setups) & possibly ledge snap vulnerability add on to her weaknesses.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Just like pershona said, her skill cap (along with her skill curve) is ridiculously high. There are many ways to play Sheik & each way has it's own advantages and disadvantages & it's not easy to learn when to use which.

Adding on to that, I believe Sheik players suffer if they don't know how to get the most optimal punish. If you can't rack percentage to the best of your ability, or take that small opportunity to get a kill, then it will eventually add up making a game much more difficult than it could be.

Outside of the skill curve, difficulty killing (especially when your opponent knows the percentage for Sheik's kill setups) & possibly ledge snap vulnerability add on to her weaknesses.

I have a Link video I'll be posting shortly. Fought against Samboner (#2 on Smashladder). Notice how, on the last stock, it takes just a bit of pressure. As soon as I noticed he lost his footing, I capitalized.

 

[keikashi12]

Sheik definitely takes skill to master and she has very few weaknesses, but unfortunately these small nicks are enough to chip away at a sheik player sometime. I believe sheik is definitely the best character in the game, but I read a good point somewhere on smashboards that the only reason people think sheik is the best is from this idea if sheik is played perfectly that you can completely overwhelm your opponent. It makes sense because with sheik, my theory is partly idealistic because sheik requires almost no room for error and so much precision that there aren't any room for mistakes. Other characters in the game just aren't as harsh as that. There are many great sheiks that I've seen and from every top one I've seen, I literally see a dominating performance but still they don't get rewarded off of one mistake made with sheik which is really all it takes. I personally feel like sheik should have some better method or kill. Regardless of how lag less her attacks seem, I think it's pretty uneven to have a killing potential around 150 and up (at most what I see) and to be killed off at percents in the 80 to 100 range. But any who even with these flaws I believe sheik is still the best and if not the best no less that number three. Sheik can really dominate a match if you take the time and effort to invest into her

 

[DeathlyFerret]

I think she's the best in the game... She has tons of options for any situation; a good Sheik can make the most out of their opponents tiniest mistakes.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Sheik definitely takes skill to master and she has very few weaknesses, but unfortunately these small nicks are enough to chip away at a sheik player sometime. I believe sheik is definitely the best character in the game, but I read a good point somewhere on smashboards that the only reason people think sheik is the best is from this idea if sheik is played perfectly that you can completely overwhelm your opponent. It makes sense because with sheik, my theory is partly idealistic because sheik requires almost no room for error and so much precision that there aren't any room for mistakes. Other characters in the game just aren't as harsh as that. There are many great sheiks that I've seen and from every top one I've seen, I literally see a dominating performance but still they don't get rewarded off of one mistake made with sheik which is really all it takes. I personally feel like sheik should have some better method or kill. Regardless of how lag less her attacks seem, I think it's pretty uneven to have a killing potential around 150 and up (at most what I see) and to be killed off at percents in the 80 to 100 range. But any who even with these flaws I believe sheik is still the best and if not the best no less that number three. Sheik can really dominate a match if you take the time and effort to invest into her

Considering the first part of your statement, I think that's plenty fair. Risk/reward margin for having a character that's nearly flawless in every way, can overwhelm the opponent, has next to no endlag, and tons of options needs to work for her kills.

As an Ike main, we don't have those options. Unless we stack custom moves, we constantly have trouble nailing damage onto someone or recovering when someone expects it. Luigi and Sheik completely overwhelms us since they're always safe, their grab game is always covered by another attack, and they stay behind you. It feels good to nail that kill, but Ike has flaws. He doesn't build damage as effectively as other characters, he has a ton of endlag, his DTilt got nerfed in range, and despite being known for his kill power, actually isn't THAT much of a killer. Compare his FSmash to Bowser's or King Dedede's, or Fox's USmash and Captain Falcon's Fair and FSmash. It's decent, and the range helps, but even with Bair, that's looking at 95% to 100%.

So while we can relate to the struggle of playing a character carefully, Sheik has considerable options on how to rushdown and approach or use more defense. I don't think she needs a buff unless she's going to Melee levels of top tier.

 

[keikashi12]

Considering the first part of your statement, I think that's plenty fair. Risk/reward margin for having a character that's nearly flawless in every way, can overwhelm the opponent, has next to no endlag, and tons of options needs to work for her kills.

As an Ike main, we don't have those options. Unless we stack custom moves, we constantly have trouble nailing damage onto someone or recovering when someone expects it. Luigi and Sheik completely overwhelms us since they're always safe, their grab game is always covered by another attack, and they stay behind you. It feels good to nail that kill, but Ike has flaws. He doesn't build damage as effectively as other characters, he has a ton of endlag, his DTilt got nerfed in range, and despite being known for his kill power, actually isn't THAT much of a killer. Compare his FSmash to Bowser's or King Dedede's, or Fox's USmash and Captain Falcon's Fair and FSmash. It's decent, and the range helps, but even with Bair, that's looking at 95% to 100%.

So while we can relate to the struggle of playing a character carefully, Sheik has considerable options on how to rushdown and approach or use more defense. I don't think she needs a buff unless she's going to Melee levels of top tier.

I concur with what you said. I'm a sheik main by the way and ironic you said if sheik is played defensively because I'm a very aggressive sheik and my defense with sheik is not awesome but my offense is beautiful. Maybe that's why I feel that way. And About ike I used to main him in brawl and I was pretty strong with him, but they changed some things about him that I didn't like (like super armor on part of his eruption. Now I will agree ike doesn't have as many options as sheik but that's because he's strong as crap lol. There's this smash player named Ryo that mains ike in ssb4 and if you watch him he will make you will change your opinion on ike. I witnessed him three stock a sonic that was at tournament level and it blew my mind. How long have you main ed him for

 

[gsmVoiD]

Considering the first part of your statement, I think that's plenty fair. Risk/reward margin for having a character that's nearly flawless in every way, can overwhelm the opponent, has next to no endlag, and tons of options needs to work for her kills.

As an Ike main, we don't have those options. Unless we stack custom moves, we constantly have trouble nailing damage onto someone or recovering when someone expects it. Luigi and Sheik completely overwhelms us since they're always safe, their grab game is always covered by another attack, and they stay behind you. It feels good to nail that kill, but Ike has flaws. He doesn't build damage as effectively as other characters, he has a ton of endlag, his DTilt got nerfed in range, and despite being known for his kill power, actually isn't THAT much of a killer. Compare his FSmash to Bowser's or King Dedede's, or Fox's USmash and Captain Falcon's Fair and FSmash. It's decent, and the range helps, but even with Bair, that's looking at 95% to 100%.

So while we can relate to the struggle of playing a character carefully, Sheik has considerable options on how to rushdown and approach or use more defense. I don't think she needs a buff unless she's going to Melee levels of top tier.

I don't think Sheik needs any type of buff, no matter how small. Luigi and Sheik are both not always safe, it's just very small windows that not every character can capitalize on. Ike (in comparison to Sheik) has very wide hitboxes while also having a detatched hurtbox from his hitbox. The difference is that Sheik has more options to get around opponents & a huge mixup game, which Ike lacks due to unsafe moves.

Sheik doesn't necessarily have to be played carefully, but precisely.

 

[keikashi12]

I don't think Sheik needs any type of buff, no matter how small. Luigi and Sheik are both not always safe, it's just very small windows that not every character can capitalize on. Ike (in comparison to Sheik) has very wide hitboxes while also having a detatched hurtbox from his hitbox. The difference is that Sheik has more options to get around opponents & a huge mixup game, which Ike lacks due to unsafe moves.

Sheik doesn't necessarily have to be played carefully, but precisely.

Right i agree. She has to be played both ways perfectly and you have to understand when to be offensive and when to be defensive. Ike has counter at his disposal that starts up pretty quick if you're worried about an overwhelming offense. with the rage mechanic in play I don't feel like it's a fair advantage for us to have to take people to full rage and get killed all because we have a character that can fair people a few more times than the average character. If there was no rage in this game, then i would bite my opinion. But the rage powers you up pretty decently and for a character thst gets killed at low percent without rage, i get salty whenever i see a sheik that expertly outplays an opponent snd still loses. I don't think sheik completely disadvantages characters other than obvious big slow characters like bowser and dedede. Every character in this game has killing potential on sheik around 80 to 100 percent, so I don't see the big deal on scaling the survivability of characters against her to a lower percent that's not close to around 180 or 200.

 

[Girthquake]

So, I'd like to point out that first off a skill cap does not justify a disgustingly over powered kit. Now matter how high the skill cap. It's the same fallacious argument you heard when you saw literally nothing but Lee Sin played in OGN all through end of S3 and S4 in League.

Second you're all flattering yourselves thinking Sheik has a gigantic skill curve. Nothing in this game has a gigantic skill curve. Maybe COMPARATIVELY yes Sheik takes more precise inputs than anyone else probably, but also only due to her undeserved completely and utterly superior frame data she possesses. I mean at the end of the day what is a bad match up for Sheik in this game? Another Sheik? You are literally praying for human error against a Sheik player, not actual counter play to the character itself. Which is incredibly sad.

 

[gsmVoiD]

So, I'd like to point out that first off a skill cap does not justify a disgustingly over powered kit. Now matter how high the skill cap. It's the same fallacious argument you heard when you saw literally nothing but Lee Sin played in OGN all through end of S3 and S4 in League.

Second you're all flattering yourselves thinking Sheik has a gigantic skill curve. Nothing in this game has a gigantic skill curve. Maybe COMPARATIVELY yes Sheik takes more precise inputs than anyone else probably, but also only due to her undeserved completely and utterly superior frame data she possesses. I mean at the end of the day what is a bad match up for Sheik in this game? Another Sheik? You are literally praying for human error against a Sheik player, not actual counter play to the character itself. Which is incredibly sad.

That's why we're discussing what makes Sheik a weaker character. As the meta advances, things don't always stay the same. Look at League's meta right now and where Lee Sin is. Just give the meta some time to adapt and things will change.

If nothing in this game has a gigantic skill curve, then why aren't new players rising to dominance immediately? If you're only praying against human error versus a Sheik, a character with no "bad matchups" besides herself, then why don't we see Sheik in every tournament's top 8? I mean, these people practice Sheik a lot, it can't be possible that a handful of them make so many errors that they rarely show up in top 8. There's more to a character than what's seen on paper, and it's been proven time and time again that it can be exploited.

Personally, I think Sheik vs Jiggs will end up being a difficult matchup, but that's only from my own experiences.

 

[Girthquake]

There are definitely skill curves, just not giant ones like you all seem to associate yourselves with talking about Sheik. Not to mention there have been plenty of "nobodies" that have actually risen up and played against top players, an example I can give is PLAYER 1 vs Hbox in the infamous Hoo Haa rage quit.

You're definitely right about the meta developing, I just don't see where you can really outplay the best frame data in the game. The fact that you have what is essentially the fastest move set in the game with virtually zero landing lag spells out the fact that you are literally waiting and praying for human error, which again isn't actually outplaying the character or its kit, but rather waiting patiently for the player to make a mistake.

Give it a bit for the majority to figure out Sheiks potential, and I'll bet you're going to see a change in who places top in tourney play.

 

[gsmVoiD]

Hbox is not skilled in Smash 4, nor is Jiggs developed to a higher standard in the meta as of now. Player 1 has gotten high placings & shown that he's put time into this game.

There are small windows to punish Sheik, however that doesn't make it unpunishable. Whether that means somehow winning in the neutral game, having superior mind games, or just understanding how to trade with Sheik's moveset, anything could happen. On a side note, human error should always be calculated when going into something.

The characters & players that place will always change, Especially with the fact that patches have been rolling out. Even so shortly after the patch you can see the meta shifts in certain regions. I don't doubt it, but as of now Sheik will have weaknesses that players can exploit.

 

[Girthquake]

The points I'm trying to get across in my snarky upset posts is this.

Sheik is without a doubt the best character in the game, which if not showing immediately in tournament play does so on paper with frame data and combo potential.

Sheik has a skill cap for sure, especially seeing as how the characters kill options are heavily read based. But I'm tired of Sheik players stroking their own egos claiming it takes some kind of God to play her well. It does not

I literally cannot think of a single bad match up for Sheik that's ACTUALLY a BAD match up. Not like 45/55 I mean a BAD match up. I'd actually like to know one.

 

[gsmVoiD]

I really do think that Sheik has a bad matchup versus Jiggs. It hasn't been explored too much but the setups Sheik usually has are not there, which include kill setups, making a hard read the most reliable way to kill outside of up air / gravity grenade setups. Jiggs can also air camp & trade effectively due to Sheik's moves dealing very low percentage values & having a small hitbox. Ways around this matchup that I've found is switching to normal needles and pisces to possibly get early kill setups on Jiggs. From what I've tried while playing against LT's Jiggs it's a difficult matchup but hey it's better than assuming she wins everything, right?

It doesn't take a god to play Sheik, but you can't just pick up Sheik and be good with her. This rule stands for everything pretty much & is still taken into account with Sheik. What we're trying to say is that there's a lot of different levels at which to play Sheik, and not everyone can take that to a higher level. Sheik has the frame data to support sloppy play, but higher levels of play don't.

 

[Smasher89]

Shiek is definitly the best char.
Pros: Fast, got fast projectiles that leads to atleast a KO move
Safe pressure
A very powerful upsmash
Grabcombos
Great OOS/OOR options
Great offstagegame
Fair
Fair
Fair
Frametraps
No IC that counters her in the game

Cons: Dont have a secondary char behind her.
Landlag on her up b(thats a bit harder to punish since the secondhit is there with the windbox)
Jab is slower then shine and cant be jumpcanceled.