Do we all need to get better at Vision?

[InfinityZERO]

After spending a lot of time fighting and watching top Shulks on the Video thread, to step up our game, do we need to start practicing predicting Vision and have become core gameplay?

Reasoning I'm Arguing for this

All players have patterns, by about 2 lives you should be able to predict your opponent some what. If you're at a tournament, you've got another round if you lose.

Vision is hands down the BEST counter in the entire game. Unblockable, slows down the area around you and the attacker so *POSSIBLY* undodgable, great damage, great active time/frames *WHEN NOT STALE* and great knockback. I kinda think of Vision, but don't use it as well, as like Cammy's Hooligan throw from Street Fighter. It gets in the opponents head and makes them focus more on throws or hesitate when throwing out attacks. Or they don't learn, are you get free damage, kills, and knockback.

Smash 4 has been more about "committing to an attack" to quote a local tournament player in my area.

Shulk doesn't have much in terms to ability. SH Nair, Fair, Uthrow (combos), Dthrow (finishers), Utilt, Jab combo and Bair are really what our core game and the top players have in their tool box. Everything else is either situational or trash. By trash, I mean INCREDIBLY situational, or use it on an opponent you're disrespecting because they just aren't very good.

Situational
Air Slash
DSmash (rollers)
FSmash (pivot Smash as an anti-air)
Bthrow (you use this because you can't kill with Dthrow because you're the wrong direction)
Dtilt (have to watch Shulk get back up when he finishes, although or possibly can be part of the core game)
Ftilt

Trash
off stage Nair (the end lag will get you killed unless you have MA Jump off stage)
FThrow
USmash (in almost any situation, Utilt is better. Shulk has a reverse Ganon problem)
Back Slash
Uair (need to be inside the opponent almost)
Dair (refer to Uair, but the way to consistently spike has incredibly tight timing or you get out prioritized by an Up B)

I'd put this in the Meta topic, but I think this needs it's own topic. I'm hoping to see some good discussion on this. I recognize that some of other characters can snuff Vision out. Yoshi eggs, Link's Dair (it bounces or good Links throw this out so close to the ground that you can't Vision), Uairs (when they're above you), Mac's ground KO punch, ****ing Diddy's Side B command throw, and a couple others that don't come to mind.

Does anyone know how long it takes before Vision "recharges?" By that I mean that mean when the active frames max out? So if I spam Vision, it decreases in active frames. How long does it take to revert back to max?

Also how do people feel about using this topic to list Visionable situations, kinda like berserker01's combo thread? For example, if someone chases you off stage when you come back on, 99% aren't doing empty jumps they want to attack you. So if they come after you, Vision!

 

[Masonomace]

I disagree with off-stage N-air being considered Trash in the OP. Using N-air off-stage above stage floor level can actually be an excellent aerial to cover airdodge depending oh how you're aiming it from RAR'ing it or not.

Generally though, off-stage N-air below stage level with Vanilla Shulk is a risk, & it's basically the same way with Jump Shulk walking off & using N-air; they both get back with they respected Double Jump + Air Slash if needed. The only reason N-air off-stage would be Trash is if you FF the N-air while in Vanilla or even worse, Jump mode, but my post so far is not the main point.

About Vision
When it comes to being combo'd, sometimes Vision can be one of the only few options we have airborne despite it's usage of utility to be less effective in the air than on the ground, not to mention that pressing forward in the air doesn't change anything for the Vision counter at all.

I'm not sure about the time Vision requires to be recharging.

There's a Lucario thread that goes over what moves can be punished by Lucario's counter, Double Team, so I'm okay with the idea.

My contribution that I think we all should know of & realize quickly about Vision:

• Can Vision counter & Forward Vision counter Charizard's Flare Blitz

 

[Berserker.]

Not gonna move this thread because this seems interesting. So.....

After spending a lot of time fighting and watching top Shulks on the Video thread, to step up our game, do we need to start practicing predicting Vision and have become core gameplay?

Reasoning I'm Arguing for this

All players have patterns, by about 2 lives you should be able to predict your opponent some what. If you're at a tournament, you've got another round if you lose.

Vision is hands down the BEST counter in the entire game. Unblockable, slows down the area around you and the attacker so *POSSIBLY* undodgable, great damage, great active time/frames *WHEN NOT STALE* and great knockback. I kinda think of Vision, but don't use it as well, as like Cammy's Hooligan throw from Street Fighter. It gets in the opponents head and makes them focus more on throws or hesitate when throwing out attacks. Or they don't learn, are you get free damage, kills, and knockback.

Smash 4 has been more about "committing to an attack" to quote a local tournament player in my area.

Shulk doesn't have much in terms to ability. SH Nair, Fair, Uthrow (combos), Dthrow (finishers), Utilt, Jab combo and Bair are really what our core game and the top players have in their tool box. Everything else is either situational or trash. By trash, I mean INCREDIBLY situational, or use it on an opponent you're disrespecting because they just aren't very good.

Situational
Air Slash
DSmash (rollers)
FSmash (pivot Smash as an anti-air)
Bthrow (you use this because you can't kill with Dthrow because you're the wrong direction)
Dtilt (have to watch Shulk get back up when he finishes, although or possibly can be part of the core game)
Ftilt

Trash
off stage Nair (the end lag will get you killed unless you have MA Jump off stage)
FThrow
USmash (in almost any situation, Utilt is better. Shulk has a reverse Ganon problem)
Back Slash
Uair (need to be inside the opponent almost)
Dair (refer to Uair, but the way to consistently spike has incredibly tight timing or you get out prioritized by an Up B)

I'd put this in the Meta topic, but I think this needs it's own topic. I'm hoping to see some good discussion on this. I recognize that some of other characters can snuff Vision out. Yoshi eggs, Link's Dair (it bounces or good Links throw this out so close to the ground that you can't Vision), Uairs (when they're above you), Mac's ground KO punch, ****ing Diddy's Side B command throw, and a couple others that don't come to mind.

Does anyone know how long it takes before Vision "recharges?" By that I mean that mean when the active frames max out? So if I spam Vision, it decreases in active frames. How long does it take to revert back to max?

Also how do people feel about using this topic to list Visionable situations, kinda like berserker01's combo thread? For example, if someone chases you off stage when you come back on, 99% aren't doing empty jumps they want to attack you. So if they come after you, Vision!

U-smash and F-throw are not trash. D-tilt and F-tilt are important for Shulk's ground spacing. Air slash is generally a great attack. Comes out at frame 10, insane range, high knockback in default, and it's a great anti-air PLUS combo finisher

But anyway, getting better at using vision is important. I'll touch on this later

 

[kenniky]

Situational
Air Slash
DSmash (rollers)
FSmash (pivot Smash as an anti-air)
Bthrow (you use this because you can't kill with Dthrow because you're the wrong direction)
Dtilt (have to watch Shulk get back up when he finishes, although or possibly can be part of the core game)
Ftilt

Trash
off stage Nair (the end lag will get you killed unless you have MA Jump off stage)
FThrow
USmash (in almost any situation, Utilt is better. Shulk has a reverse Ganon problem)
Back Slash
Uair (need to be inside the opponent almost)
Dair (refer to Uair, but the way to consistently spike has incredibly tight timing or you get out prioritized by an Up B)

I would heavily contest quite a bit of this list. Air Slash is a wonderful move, deals decent damage, good knockback, fast startup and respectable range as well as being B-reversable. D-Smash near the ledge can be a nice trump for opponents that like to recover horizontally. FSmash is one of the longest ranged Smashes in the game AND it's non-reflectable. FSmash can easily be used to punish stuff like jab combos, plus it hits opponents on the ledge angled down and it's super safe on shield in Buster due to hitstun. Bthrow is a nice damage racker (it's Shulk's second most damaging throw) and if the opponent isn't careful it can lead into an easy Back Slash. Dtilt and Ftilt are definitely way high up there in Shulk's repertoire and are useful for spacing and such.

Off-stage nair is not as bad as people make it out to be - Shulk's vertical recovery is good enough to make it back to the ledge. Nair has a large hitbox so I don't see why this is bad. Fthrow's lower knockback can be used to set up for a SH Fair or something, plus Fthrow is our most damaging throw.. USmash is easily our best killing move and its initial hit has more range than you would expect. Back Slash is definitely situational but you can throw it out now and again to mix things up, plus Back Slash Charge has super armor which is definitely useful. Dair is a pretty powerful spike and I've seen it used a lot in tournaments, I wouldn't say it's trash.

Also Dthrow isn't just for killing, I would say it's as useful as Uthrow for combo starting.

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. Let's do this

Situational
Air Slash

Air slash is one of Shulk's better attacks. It may be a bad recovery but as an attack, it's incredible. It's decently fast, has insane range, solid anti-air and it kills. Very good OoS option. Learn to love it

DSmash (rollers)

It's also good for landing kills in Smash art. It surprisingly kills VERY WELL even outside of Smash art

FSmash (pivot Smash as an anti-air)

Also good for punishing and for creating space by pivoting. You pivot f-smash in case opponents get into your zone. Same goes for pivoting f-tilt. It's a good KO, punishing tool, and spacing tool.

Bthrow (you use this because you can't kill with Dthrow because you're the wrong direction)

B-throw deals a lot of damage. Also, it kills in Smash art

Dtilt
Ftilt

F-tilt is a great combo finisher, spacing tool, KO tool in smash art. It's not situational.
D-tilt is good for popping opponents into the air for some follow ups (like f-air) and for spacing. It's also one of Shulk's quicker attacks (Comes out at frame 10)

Trash
off stage Nair (the end lag will get you killed unless you have MA Jump off stage)

Sort of correct. Off-stage N-air has some uses but you always have better options

FThrow

You can get some possible follow ups off from f-throw in buster so no, it's not trash

USmash (in almost any situation, Utilt is better. Shulk has a reverse Ganon problem)

U-smash is surprisingly okay in catching rolls and pretty much handling any ledge option if you read correctly. Also, it kills vertically. It's not trash though

Back Slash

It sucks. That's true

Uair (need to be inside the opponent almost)

Sort of. You can get some sneaky kills with it. Punish air dodges with u-air

Dair (refer to Uair, but the way to consistently spike has incredibly tight timing or you get out prioritized by an Up B)

The timing for d-air's meteor spike isn't even that hard, but this is situational


ANYWAY, tl;dr: Shulk's situational moves are D-air, U-air, Back Slash, and off-stage N-air. The rest are useful for multiple purposes

As for vision... Yoshi's eggs cannot be countered. DO NOT forward vision Charizard's f-smash. Bowser's u-smash absorbs Shulk's vision counter depending on where the hitbox lands.

Use vision against attacks with commitment like Link's dash attack or Ike's u-smash or f-smash.

 

[Maple42]

There are essentially two ways to correctly use Vision; as an actual move, or as a scare tactic.
Vision can be used to program your opponent to not use their kill moves (i.e. Smash moves, Villager's tree, Falcon punch lol), making it even harder to KO you, especially when in Shield forme.
Alternatively, you can use it at a safe distance to make your opponent think you're going to use it, and make them hesitate.

Of course, if the yomi fairy tells you your opponent's going to attack, go ahead and throw it out.

 

[N7Kopper]

D-tilt has good IASA frames, so the attack ends as soon as Shulk resets to crouching position, and not a moment afterward.
Back Slash isn't "trash" - it's definitely situational. It's good in Shield form alongside the dash attack for punishing laggy projectiles, as it operates on Bunny Hood logic and isn't slowed down by Shield - depending on the distance, you might even use it OOS - and you can even throw it out as a read against characters with good back airs, like Jigglypuff and Ike.

Air Slash can make for a good off-stage kill option if you space yourself right (to avoid SD because helpless) and don't get airdodged. It's hardly as safe as a high n-air, but it's good knockback can make mincemeat of light characters with good recoveries like Kirby and ditto Shulks in Jump.

Vision? Honestly, the hardest parts of Vision to grasp in real-time combat are when not to use Forward Vision, and the staling of the counter window and it's recharge times. Not even reading my opponent or dealing with the Apocrophea machine that is online latency. Of course, mindgames against the best of the best are going to be a lot harder - Smash ain't no game that hides a lack of depth behind horrible controls, after all.

 

[InfinityZERO]

When I talk about each move, I don't talk about spamming it. I wanna use some of Jerm's videos or tourny as examples. He's 13th on smashladder, if that makes a difference and has a video tutorial for Shulk. Oh yeah, I defined trash = incredibly situational. Maybe I shouldn't have called it that and kept the same definition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GksYmbzztbs (Trela)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=albEwf6iYc4 (Trela)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6c61yGT-pk (Jerm Smashladder battle)

I just tried looking for a couple videos on youtube. If anyone has counter video evidence (where for example Back Slash should be used regularly), bring it out. It should be Wii U version, since that has the most recent update.

Air Slash - a move that if you miss, you fall into a helpless state. Plus it goes straight up. So like ZSS' Thrust Kick? But no set-up that is close to ZSS' set-up Throw combo>Thrust Kick (exception of mid-percent [where they still feel "heavy" but don't recover quickly] Buster UThrow>Utilt]. There is no way that should get or gets as much use as Nair or Fair. If both hit, it does 10-12% and good knockback at above 100%. There are better options than this. Especially since you won't leave yourself to getting wrecked if you miss or they air dodge. Even at low percents, they can get hit and you leave yourself open getting counter attacked in the air. You leave yourself open to a partially charged Smash if you miss. Why would I want to leave shield to do this? There aren't better moves to do attack with than this? This has to be situational. When are you using this at the same amount as the core moves I listed (Bair, Nair, Fair)? Even with Utilt, Shulk is not a juggle character like Sheik.

DSmash - You can punish rolls with SH FF Nair and while that does less damage, you put yourself in less of a vulnerable position, and keep mobile as well. You miss with DSmash with all three slashes or the opponent blocks downward and you open yourself up grabs and anything else quick. This isn't a good edgeguard option either (on block from a edge attack or not), check out LarryLurr's video in the sticky and count how many revolutions before Shulk touches the opponent, it's the final turn. And notice it hits awhile *AFTER* they lose ledge invincibility (quit shining). All throughout the revolutions, the ledge attack screams to be used by your opponent (unless very high percent, do you lose invincibility faster at high percents?).

FSmash - IS NOT SUPER SAFE on block (second Trela video, Jerm video has a perfect block [doesn't really count] on FSmash near the end). You know what is SUPER SAFE on block? ZSS' Dash Attack or even Pac-Man's Dash attack (possibly a late Yoshi Dash Attack). Characters with decent speed can block and punish with a grab or something else. If you do manage a spotdodge (if your opponent is slow), you leave yourself open to a pivot grab. A grab is probably better as punish (opens up more options) or an Ftilt. If you were to use this as much as Nair, Fair, or Bair you'd be way too open.

USmash - Almost anything is better to counter attack with than this. Nair, Utilt, Ftilt, and even DSmash since Shulk has better horizontal aerial options than juggles. Unless you've really staled every other move and trying to kill at a low percent with Smash, why used this this incredibly situational move?

Back Slash - like I said before, your opponent has to be incredibly incompetent/new at the game and at a low percent to try to get away with BThrow>Back Slash or SH>Back Slash. It takes a tech and a block or a roll away to shut this gimmick down.

FThrow - What is the Buster set-up, berserker01? And can you use it enough to warrant it being used often like UThrow? I don't see on your combo thread... yet.

I'll answer about Ftilt and Dtilts tomorrow. But most of my battles, plus the ones on tournies, I see are aerials.

More on what my topic was originally trying to get at...

If someone is jumping away from you and coming back with an obvious Bair, throw Vision! Falcon, Palutena, Ganon, Mega Man*, the Marios, Luigi, Pit*, D. Pit*, Zelda, Yoshi, Rosaluma, Game and Watch*, Donkey Kong, the Fire Emblem crew, Greninja, ROB, Ness, Jigglypuff*, Bowser Jr., and Kirby. The other character either have disappointing Bairs or they come out too quick to try and punish. The stars are for characters that either depend on aerials or the Bair is a main KO move. You shut down the Bair, you've made them rethink their game.

 

[Berserker.]

I think you should watch more of the recent videos. Not only from Trela or Jerm but players like Ally and John# who have been using u-smash, air slash, and f-smash to land kills, or rack up damage. U-smash/Air slash are great OoS options that also double as good KO options. Also, the fact that d-smash KO's does not make it that situational. It punishes rolls and also KO's rollers at high %'s especially if you keep it fresh.

This is all I have to say about f-tilt

Also f-throw is a set up to another aerial (f-air or n-air). Not a combo but just because it ain't a combo, doesn't make it useless.

And F-smash is not safe but you can land it a bunch of times if you pivot it once opponents are already blitzkrieging to your zone (same goes for pivot grab or f-tilt)

Edit: Air slash also can catch ledge grabbers. +1


Anyway, enough of the derailing from moi. Just transfer the moveset discussion here plz: http://smashboards.com/threads/this...cussion-how-to-use-monado-arts.369285/page-37

~~~~

Add to the vision list:
- When jumping from the ledge
- Instead of challenging the aerial with f-air, make a gamble and counter it instead (It may miss)

 

[riskyjones]

I remember seeing vision being spotdodge when used. is this just luck or can this actually be used to counter our counter.

 

[Virum]

USmash - Almost anything is better to counter attack with than this. Nair, Utilt, Ftilt, and even DSmash since Shulk has better horizontal aerial options than juggles. Unless you've really staled every other move and trying to kill at a low percent with Smash, why used this this incredibly situational move?

FThrow - What is the Buster set-up, berserker01? And can you use it enough to warrant it being used often like UThrow? I don't see on your combo thread... yet.

I wanted to address these two as I believe what you're saying about them is straight up incorrect. USmash is probably Shulk's most solid and consistent kill move. It does more damage than every move you mentioned and can kill most characters sub 100% and all it requires is a decent read of their ledge option once you force them offstage. You were saying before that why would you use this over USmash when there are a couple of reasons. One is the superior horizontal reach/disjoint and two is the fact that it's a much stronger option on successful read.

With regards to FThrow, this throw at low percents is a better DThrow. It sends at very similar angles with very similar knockback except it does 4% more damage. I see very little reason to use DThrow over this move at low percents honestly. Also UThrow is incredibly overrated. You get no true combos from it and all your opponent has to do is double jump to avoid almost every possible follow up out of it. It's probably his worst throw overall honestly as it has the least utility and does joint lowest damage with DThrow but doesn't have the benefit of being able to kill like DThrow.

 

[EthJ]

Back Slash's good for dropping down from being knocked upwards if your opponent's hungry for a Smash Attack or is too dumb to block, long as you don't spam it every time.

Or better yet, Buster + B-Throw + Back Slash x Low % = Deliciousness

And as for Vision, try to use it when you're purposely making yourself open to attack, I do this all the time with friends and they don't think for a second that I'll activate my vision due to using it awfully sparingly, since spamming it makes it weaker anyway.

 

[InfinityZERO]

Back Slash's good for dropping down from being knocked upwards if your opponent's hungry for a Smash Attack or is too dumb to block, long as you don't spam it every time.

Or better yet, Buster + B-Throw + Back Slash x Low % = Deliciousness

And as for Vision, try to use it when you're purposely making yourself open to attack, I do this all the time with friends and they don't think for a second that I'll activate my vision due to using it awfully sparingly, since spamming it makes it weaker anyway.

I'll concede to the points above, but I already mentioned this. Your opponent has to be incredibly stupid to fall for this move/string to succeed in general. After you've done it once and hit once (or probably missed), you're not going to get this same combination and this gimmick fails. And if that is or since it is the case, I label this move as an almost never used move or trash.

 

[ArccJPO]

From Vision we moved on to Back Slash? This is a pretty dynamic thread.

It is already known between the heirs to the monado that BS is so very situational. I guess we don't need yet another discussion on it. But Vision, well, it's an entire new topic to discuss. I do think it's the best counter, specially with certain MA (Buster for racking up damage / Smash for launching power). Advanced Vision + Smash is a pretty safe kill (even on low %) on enemies like Ike, Bowser and D3, as they smash moves are pretty easy to ready. You can even add Rage to the equation for even stronger knock back.

I think, the only way to avoid the counter is to foresee the counter and take providence, like:

-Use a low lag command, foreseeing the counter
-Quickly Spot Dodge or Roll

Even then, I think that foreseeing the Advanced Vision is pretty impossible, since it's so pretty damn fast that Shulk pulls it out.

 

[Masonomace]

It's quite possible to avoid a Vision counter, but not so much a Advanced / Forwarded Vision. There's a way to increase the range a Vision counter reaches but I'm still messing with it hoping to figure it out.

I'll also be making a list of moves Shulk can punish with Vision or Advanced / Forwarded Vision as well. Such examples are:
- Flare Blitz

• Both Vision counters

- Flip Jump

• Advanced / Forwarded Vision (If she's coming down to try hitting overhead, & you try doing a regular Vision, you'll face the other way & miss her. In this case, if you're facing right & countering from the front, hold left to use the Advancing Vision while hitting her)

 

[cheesemonk66]

I would very much like to see this list. Have you made any progress on it yet?