Do Tiers Matter?

[LancerStaff]

Tiers matter. Tiers matter in every game. Even with just one character there's different items or moves where one is clearly better. How fun or stupid something ends up is subjective and largely irrelevant once there's any kind of competition.

 

[SwordM13X24]

lol I read this in my head with the Scout's voice from TF2.

Been typin' like that for over 10 years. Start'd that habit with friends over Maplestory (R.I.P.) and now it's hard for me to kick. >.>;;

 

[ChaikaBestGirl]

Tiers are an excuse for people who think that X cannot beat Y because Y is under powered and X is the best character in the game. Anyone can beat anyone, no exceptions. There is no line of code in the game that says X beats Y every single time, there is only a line in the code saying that ZeRo can't lose.

 

[David Viran]

The reason top players like ZeRo and Nairo pick the best characters (Sheik and Zero Suit Samus respectively)

I really don't think nairo picked up zss because she was top tier but because he just likes playing her. For a while he considered zss to be maybe top ten or just outside. He may have started using zss more exclusively because he realized she was his best character.

As long as there is more then just one character tho there will be characters who are better than others and being able to be placed in a tier list.

 

[Mobes]

Tiers matter essentially as much as review scores on reviews.
It's just a meta tool to quickly communicate a summation of character strengths and weaknesses.

It gets misused because people love to argue and be right.
Miscommunication of this sort is why the internet (read: indirect non-verbal communication) fundamentally sucks.

 

[_gold_]

It's simple. Yes and no. They do not exist for casual players. Players who perhaps don't know how to utilize more complex techniques. But yes, tiers do exist for competitive players. That's a fact, Jack.

 

[FoxE]

Think of tiers like pokemon

Grass (Shiek) vs Water (any low tier character)

Grass obviously is better than water and wins the matchup but sometimes the Water type pokemon has more experience than the Grass and is at a "higher level" and can beat out the Grass (shiek) even though It's at a disadvantage.

 

[Wintropy]

I really don't think nairo picked up zss because she was top tier but because he just likes playing her. For a while he considered zss to be maybe top ten or just outside. He may have started using zss more exclusively because he realized she was his best character.

As long as there is more then just one character tho there will be characters who are better than others and being able to be placed in a tier list.

Oh, I know he didn't pick up ZSS just because she's top-tier. With that in mind, I think it's fair to say he goes for her more than his other characters (Dark Pit, Robin, Zelda) because he gets the best results with her, which is important when you go toe-to-toe with ZeRo in big tournaments.

 

[Hustlie]

The way I see it, the only way you can only ever bring a character to it's full potential is if you yourself show what they can do and work with what they have rather then what they don't especially when it comes to match-ups and tier list you may be going against a top tier but maybe the tools of a low or mid tier just work really well against them and are in favor of the low/mid tier..take Donkey Kong for example..

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

In my experience, tier lists often delineate which characters have the most good options, which in turn makes for a more engaging game experience, since you can choose from multiple angles of attack rather than your character's one good attack. This ties into how characters can be low tier for very different reasons.

For example, some characters are bad because of hitbox issues, Samus being the most salient example. I think this will eventually be fixed, so you have the hope of an improving character. There's nothing about the basic idea of Samus as a fighter that might make her unviable; she just needs tweaks, and needs them badly.

Other characters have basic design issues that will, barring major changes that I think are unlikely from patches, place a hard limit on their effectiveness. I spend a lot of time playing Ganon. He's fun, but if you take a look at him closely, he's almost an inversion of Sheik, the consensus best character. Slow, but powerful, yet his moves don't link together into fluid combos, which has the perverse effect of making his overall damage output often less impressive than lighter, smaller fighters. He has a poor recovery, and no projectile to balance out his extreme slowness. This sort of character is, in the end, only suited to casual play. Lower tier characters tend to have fewer good options, which can lead to monotonous gameplay (Sure, Warlock Punch is a move, but how often can you use it? In most situations you could not have it at all and Ganon would be just as (in)effective.).

I wouldn't say that being higher on the tier list automatically makes a character more fun to play, but in picking your main, I encourage everyone to take stock of why each character is in a particular tier. Theoretically each character has tons of options; practically this turns out not to be the case, which can hurt the experience of playing Smash.

 

[Mario123311]

That said, tiers only really matter if you really want to win tournaments.

...Pretty much why they are a bad thing. "Pick a high tier or lose".... It's why I never want to try a Melee tourney every again. ((I'm surprised Sakurai hasn't started taking them down either I bet he may have the perfect right to))

 

[FallenHero]

...Pretty much why they are a bad thing. "Pick a high tier or lose".... It's why I never want to try a Melee tourney every again. ((I'm surprised Sakurai hasn't started taking them down either I bet he may have the perfect right to))

Wow that is a very hostile way to think about Melee tournaments. Even if there were no such thing as tier lists it wouldn't change the fact that some characters will just be able to do better than others in tournaments. If there was a tier list that put Sheik at the bottom it wouldn't stop Sheik from being able to place high in tournaments. Tier lists don't tell you which character you should and should not pick. My main is Marth, even though Marth is considered mid tier on most tier lists, he has been getting good placements in tournaments lately.

 

[Scootch]

I don't think that anyone should feel pressured to stay away from a character just because they're near the bottom of the tier list.

I agree with this completely. I play with whoever I like!

 

[CrazyPerson]

The way I look at a Tier list is a measure of a characters potential under competitive rules.

2 key points there.

Potential: Unless you are a top player, you aren't going to get a character close to it's full potential. The ZEROs of the world will do it...

On the flip side though, depending on the goal of the player... it may be necessary to take a higher character. After getting frustrated with one characters weaknesses, I did consult a tier list in order to get some ideas... and found the one that I thought was the right balance of potential and fun. I will never play it to it's fullest... but I see enough tricks with her where I can enjoy the character, be competitive against friends, etc.

Competitive Rules:

These are designed to eliminate the randomness factor, eliminate stages that take over the game (boss fights, pac land style movement, etc), and make it as much a test of skill as possible. Also to make tournaments run smoothly.

IMO, if your playing 4 player items the tier list is going to be much less accurate. Shiek, the best character in the games, lack of KO power shows when her off stage game runs the risk of a bob omb being tossed at her, missing a hammer, etc etc.


If your good enough to make good money playing this game... you will probably want a top tier character in order to maximize your earnings. (not me... not me by a couple of long shots). If you want to go to the local scene and press yourself, you again may want to pick someone with lots of potential to unlock. But if you don't like that style of rules, or don't care to do more than have some fun with friends, it doesn't matter nearly as much.

IMO the most beautiful thing about this game is how it can be played both as a tactical battle, and a chaotic mess of a battle. Both are fun in there own way.

 

[FallenHero]

Another thing people should know about tier lists is that the lists are formed around the CURRENT meta, and the meta can and will change, meaning so will the tier lists.

 

[CrazyPerson]

Forgot to add:

This game has 55 characters. Even with clones + semi clones, no 2 of them are identical. No matter how hard a developer tries, it would be impossible to make 55 characters who are all different, yet all equal potential. Within 24 hours of a games release, the combined play time of the players far dwarfs that of those who tested the game for balance... and that gap gets bigger with every passing minute. There will be those better than others. Those differences mean that tiers are real.

With that said I can see the existence of tier lists (talking about the lists not the tiers themselves, if you disagree with the above then the following is probably irrelevant to you) being a double edged sword. They are going to steer players toward some and away from others, which does raise the chance of the tier lists "proving" themselves in tournaments, and leaving buried potential in low tier characters.

With that said... I think the vast majority of us won't be able to unlock that potential without some guidance from the ZEROs of the world... most of us don't know the game nearly well enough to be revolutionary over the competitive scene in any way. And though it may take longer, I think there are enough people who know this game as well as a medical specialist knows his specialty where it will over time be found.

I think tier lists, made by the best in the world, have there uses. It is nice to see it laid out, so we know if the work we put into our characters will be worth it, or it we are going to be losing matches agaisnt roughly equally skilled players because they have a stronger foundation to build on.

With that said, at the end of the day the point of a game is to have fun... if you don't have any interest in the competitive scene, or find a character particularly fun, play them and enjoy it.

 

[_gold_]

Another thing people should know about tier lists is that the lists are formed around the CURRENT meta, and the meta can and will change, meaning so will the tier lists.

Yes, but it's never anything drastic. For example, Samus may go up on the list as time progresses (especially since with the rendition in the Smash series, there are minor updates that fighters receive periodically) but she'll never be a top-tier fighter. Yes, the meta game will change, but nothing ever significant.

 

[FallenHero]

Yes, but it's never anything drastic. For example, Samus may go up on the list as time progresses (especially since with the rendition in the Smash series, there are minor updates that fighters receive periodically) but she'll never be a top-tier fighter. Yes, the meta game will change, but nothing ever significant.

Well I think that by sometime next year the meta will look significantly different in comparison to how the meta was when it first came out, and maybe even look significantly different from how it is now.

 

[Reila]

I don't care much for online either, I never understood why people pan games for not having online support. Playing online is good and all if you care about testing your skill against other players, but as for me, I know I'm not the best Smash player in the world, and that some of these pro Smashers could eat me alive. I'd rather play with my friends and family right next to me rather than play against some random person I don't know.

Edit: So on that note....Do any of you guys want to play some Smash? I don't really have anyone to play with at the moment, and I'm kind of bored.

In case you don't know, not every place have Smash scenes or any fighting game scene, for that matter. On top of that, for many people games are better played at home. I feel more comfortable playing video games in my home than I would in local tournaments and stuff. So a game having online, at this day and age, is absolutely necessary. Does that answer your question on why people complain when a game lacks online support? I wouldn't have picked up Smash 4 if the games didn't support online play, because I got tired of playing Smash 64 and Brawl by myself and with the few people I know that play video games.

Why are you even here then? A tier list does not even matter outside of high level competition, and no, 1-on-1 for glory is not high level competition. Like I said before, you can play whoever you want, but don't expect to be winning any tournaments with a low tier character.

Who do you think you are to dictate where someone should or should not be? The forums is for everyone, not just for "high level" players. Get down off your high horse.

 

[FallenHero]

Who do you think you are to dictate where someone should or should not be? The forums is for everyone, not just for "high level" players. Get down off your high horse.

I don't even consider myself a "high level player" so I don't think I am on a high horse, but I guess I was being a bit of an ***hole when I posted that it is kind of a habit I've developed though usually I don't apologize for it, since I usually respond like that to someone who is being a **** (though they were not really being a **** when they said that).

 

[Mario123311]

And this is why I hate tier lists.

Again, it's always "Pick a high tier or lose". So I can't even enjoy a game or have a fair match with Mario or someone else just because they are bottom tier. That's called imbalance, It's practically the same thing as letting things like glitches slide.

 

[FallenHero]

And this is why I hate tier lists.

Again, it's always "Pick a high tier or lose". So I can't even enjoy a game or have a fair match with Mario or someone else just because they are bottom tier. That's called imbalance, It's practically the same thing as letting things like glitches slide.

I don't think you even read my response to you, I said that even if there were not tier lists it wouldn't stop certain characters from doing better than others in tournaments. They DO NOT tell you which character to use, they tell you which characters have a good chance of winning in tournaments it doesn't mean you can't win with Mario at a tournament.

 

[Morbi]

And this is why I hate tier lists.

Again, it's always "Pick a high tier or lose". So I can't even enjoy a game or have a fair match with Mario or someone else just because they are bottom tier. That's called imbalance, It's practically the same thing as letting things like glitches slide.

No. You are not construing their statements liberally enough. I have never heard "pick a high tier or lose." Instead, I hear, "if you want to play at a competitive level without your character holding you back, try and pick a higher tier." More to the point, I rarely hear people tell anyone to just pick the top character (except for Meta Knight for obvious reasons). You can still play a character you enjoy and maintain your play-style through a high tier character. There are plenty of options and most people (99%) do not even play at a high enough level (even in tournament) to consider switching to a top character anyways.

About Mario, he is not bottom tier. Not even close. And even if he was, you could still enjoy a game and have a fair match with Mario. Secondly, Sakurai does not balance the game for one versus one matches on legal stages exclusively. You must consider that he also tries to balance time, coin, and free for all matches on stages saturated with hazards.

 

[CrazyPerson]

And this is why I hate tier lists.

Again, it's always "Pick a high tier or lose". So I can't even enjoy a game or have a fair match with Mario or someone else just because they are bottom tier. That's called imbalance, It's practically the same thing as letting things like glitches slide.

Do you hate tier lists or tiers themselves?

Even if there wasn't a visual aid, there would still be tiers due to having differences in the characters, and the inferior ones would stumble at the top level. (which most of us never reach.)

Compared to many games, smash is very well balanced... but it is far from perfect, and the only way to make it perfect would to make every character identical in play.

 

[Mario123311]

Do you hate tier lists or tiers themselves?

Even if there wasn't a visual aid, there would still be tiers due to having differences in the characters, and the inferior ones would stumble at the top level. (which most of us never reach.)

Compared to many games, smash is very well balanced... but it is far from perfect, and the only way to make it perfect would to make every character identical in play.

You could say I hate both. Especially people who love to abuse Jigglypuff's wonky hit detection rolling and VERY early kill rests on Final Destination. Which is exactly why I don't even want to play with any "competitive" Melee players ever again.

No wonder Brawl made the physics WORSE, as disappointed in that game I was, I at least now understand why they were that way. And that still didn't protect it from Tiers, did it?

 

[Morbi]

You could say I hate both. Especially people who love to abuse Jigglypuff's wonky hit detection rolling and VERY early kill rests on Final Destination. Which is exactly why I don't even want to play with any "competitive" Melee players ever again.

No wonder Brawl made the physics WORSE, as disappointed in that game I was, I at least now understand why they were that way. And that still didn't protect it from Tiers, did it?

I do not believe you understand. Literally NOTHING can protect a game from tiers. There will always be tools, characters, or weapons that are better than others whereas there will always be mechanics, abilities, and tactics worse than others.

 

[Mario123311]

Well, Knowing Sakurai: He could take down tier lists potentially if he wanted. He already hates the "Competetive Smash" scene apparently from what I heard.

 

[FallenHero]

Well, Knowing Sakurai: He could take down tier lists potentially if he wanted. He already hates the "Competetive Smash" scene apparently from what I heard.

LOL. No he can't, someone can just make a tier list in a video talking about their own personal tier list or just make one in a post on some website somewhere. You sound a lot like Sakurai to me, and I don't mean that in a good way.

 

[Tino]

**** tier lists.

I play whoever the hell I wanna play as without nobody telling me what to do.

 

[phantom man]

**** tier lists.

I play whoever the hell I wanna play as without nobody telling me what to do.

Jeez, anyways, I don't think tier lists are supposed to "tell you what to do". They are simply guides to inform you on which characters are considered the best. Or at least that's how I see it.

 

[Evello]

Tier lists are an important and totally legitimate part of the competitive scene, especially in a game this large. However, the majority of even the competitive community misunderstands or misuses them. Here are the most common misconceptions about tier lists.

1. Tier lists tell you who to play
Tier lists do not make you or anyone else do anything, and they don't change the game at all. Tier lists simply compare the inherent advantages and disadvantages of the characters in the game. The tier list is like a list of observations. Despite what many complainers say, Sheik is top tier because she is good, she is not good because she is top tier. The list is based on highly informed, logical observations of the game, for the most part, but the placements are only as good as our information at the time. Because the lists are just based on current information, they can and do change from time to time. 15 years after Melee's release, aMSa is just now proving the viability of Yoshi, raising him from the lower end of Melee's tier list. Who you play is your own business. Tier lists simply give you a warning of how uphill your battle will probably be.

2. Tier lists apply to all levels of play
The only skill level where tier lists are truly accurate is at the absolute peak of technical skill. The lists are made considering every attack, strategy, and technique a character has available to them. If you cannot perform every attack, strategy, and technique your character has to offer (like 99% of players) then the tier list is not accurate to you. For example, in past games the Ice Climbers were infamous for their desyncs and chain grabs, which put them high on both Brawl and Melee's tier lists. However, if you can't properly chain grab, the Ice Climbers are significantly worse than what the tier list would lead you to believe. Their top tier position is reliant on you being able to use them at the top level of play.

3. Tier lists apply to all modes of play
Tier lists are made assuming a certain ruleset, so they are only accurate for that ruleset. For the competitive Smash tier lists most people talk about, this means 1v1 play with competitive stage selection, no items, and the common stock/time rules used by tourneys. Outside of those very specific conditions, the major tier lists are not accurate. For example, Ganondorf is good in free-for-alls because the chaos of the fight can distract opponents long enough for him to execute brutal smash attacks to net crazy early KO's. In 1v1, though, he very rarely is going to nail anybody with a fully charged fsmash. So in Brawl he was bottom tier, despite his capabilities in 4-player fights. Tier lists are meaningless outside of the ruleset from which they were made.

4. Tier list positions determine match outcomes
Player skill is vastly more important than how good their character is, especially in a game as well-balanced as Smash4. A great player using a bad character will basically always still defeat a bad player using a great character. However, at the pro level most players are very close in skill level. If two pro players of equal skill face off, the one using the better character will have a distinct advantage. Hence why most top-level pro players use good characters; using a bad character could be the difference between victory and defeat!

5. Tier lists compare individual characters
This is probably the one I see most from even good competitive players. A tier list is not a matchup chart. Just because a character is ranked above another does not mean the higher-ranked character has the advantage in that matchup. You need a dedicated matchup chart to make those conclusions. Tier lists compare a character to the cast as a whole. Almost all characters have at least one bad matchup with a character below them, but they simply have more good matchups to make up for it. To cite an extreme example, in Brawl the Ice Climbers were considered to have a bad matchup against Peach, despite Peach being 3 tiers lower than them. The Icies had a huge advantage against almost every other character, though, which is why they were top tier. Now, obviously a character is probably at an advantage over characters far below them, but this data can't be concluded for sure from a tier list.

So after all that talk of what tier lists don't do, what do they do? First off, they give you an idea of which characters you should prepare for when entering the competitive scene. They are not 100% accurate for this, since a character can be both unpopular and good, but the fact that pro players generally use good characters means it's a good place to start. Tier lists also give you an idea which characters will give you the biggest advantage in current tournament play. Tier lists can be very helpful for new players as they choose a character to practice with, and making the lists also promotes meaningful discussion about the advantages and disadvantages of each character.

tl;dr: Yes, tiers matter, but not if you don't take the time to understand them.

 

[Scootch]

Wow. Long post, but very informative and that is how I think about tier lists.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Depends on how you operate, a lot of people like to use tier lists as a cheat sheet when picking a character they think they'll do well with. That's fine, it would be a lie if I said that probably won't bring you success.

Personally, for smash 4, I believe any tier lists you see shouldn't mean **** when deciding on who to main. Test characters out and decide for yourself who you'll do well with. Just look at the perceived top tiers of common tier lists, with the exception of sheik most of them are considered "top tier" because of one or two notable reps doing well with the character (Nairo to zss, Dabuz to Rosa, Esam single-handedly advancing the pika meta)

 

[Mario123311]

I'm sorry but If I have to be beaten by some cheater and am not allowed to play as who I love (Pac-Man for instance), that's a problem. It should be how "good" you are at a game. That's not the case here: it's how overpowered or how "too good" a character is. This is the same issue as the Magnum in the original Halo: It essentially needed to get nerfed, as all it did was cause unfair imbalance.

So overall, if Nintendo decides to take down tier lists, I'd be more than happy.

 

[KevN くコ:彡]

I am not a serious competitive player, but I do try to keep up with the tier list. While I don't always agree with what the list says, I understand why it's there. Now when playing with friends, could give two ****s about the tier list.

 

[CrazyPerson]

I'm sorry but If I have to be beaten by some cheater and am not allowed to play as who I love (Pac-Man for instance), that's a problem. It should be how "good" you are at a game. That's not the case here: it's how overpowered or how "too good" a character is. This is the same issue as the Magnum in the original Halo: It essentially needed to get nerfed, as all it did was cause unfair imbalance.

So overall, if Nintendo decides to take down tier lists, I'd be more than happy.

How could they take down tier list? I see no way that they could force smashboards, top players on youtube, etc to remove their opinions... furthermore shutting down discussion about one of their premier games would be a terrible PR and marketing move.

If you are looking for a perfectly balanced game... we would all love that but that is impossible.

Depends on how you operate, a lot of people like to use tier lists as a cheat sheet when picking a character they think they'll do well with. That's fine, it would be a lie if I said that probably won't bring you success.

Personally, for smash 4, I believe any tier lists you see shouldn't mean **** when deciding on who to main. Test characters out and decide for yourself who you'll do well with. Just look at the perceived top tiers of common tier lists, with the exception of sheik most of them are considered "top tier" because of one or two notable reps doing well with the character (Nairo to zss, Dabuz to Rosa, Esam single-handedly advancing the pika meta)

This does show a potential flaw in this whole system... top players only advancing the metagame of their chosen character... leaving others to be perceived worse without giving them the same time. But over time things will change I suspect. This game is still very young.

I suspect the 1st "official" tier list won't be the last... nor should it be.

 

[Evello]

I'm sorry but If I have to be beaten by some cheater and am not allowed to play as who I love (Pac-Man for instance), that's a problem. It should be how "good" you are at a game. That's not the case here: it's how overpowered or how "too good" a character is. This is the same issue as the Magnum in the original Halo: It essentially needed to get nerfed, as all it did was cause unfair imbalance.

So overall, if Nintendo decides to take down tier lists, I'd be more than happy.

You've got your causality mixed up. I listed it as the #1 misconception above, but I'll say it again: the tier list does not make characters better or worse than others. It's the game that is the problem, not the tier lists. You could take down and censor every tier list on the internet (if that were possible) and Sheik would still be ridiculously amazing and would still win loads of tourneys. The tier list is simply a summary of what fans have figured out within the game, for convenience. Obviously Nintendo is in the process of patching the game to balance it, but it's basically impossible to truly 100% balance a game. Even Project M, which is being frequently updated by fans with the expressed purpose of making a balanced competitive fighter, is not perfect.

On another note, a player using a good character is not a cheater. I like to use the analogy of the real sport tennis. Your character in Smash Bros. is similar to a tennis players' racket. There are thousands of different brands and styles of tennis rackets available for purchase, ranging from cheap flimsy crap you can get at any supermarket to beautiful rackets with quality materials that sell for hundreds of dollars. When you look at pro tennis, all the high-level players use expensive, quality rackets. Why wouldn't they? It's not cheating to use the best equipment in a competitive environment, it's practically expected. Buying a $1000 racket to play with friends at the casual level is dumb, but at the pro level it would be stupid NOT to have one. The same goes for Smash Bros. You can use any character you want, but if you are serious about competing you want to use the best character possible. There is a small caveat though: just like different tennis players prefer different rackets, some people are a better/worse fit for certain Smash characters. That's why you don't see everyone playing the same best character. In Melee, Hungrybox has said he uses Jiggs because she requires less technical inputs to play well, and he struggles with that stuff. Play the character you have the potential to be the best with.

And on a last note, Pac-Man is really good. Definitely viable. I think somebody just won a big tourney with him.

 

[whitekirby9]

to me, i used to think they matter, but i dont belibve in tiers, exact in Melee

 

[Scootch]

Why not? They do matter, it is just that you do not have to follow what they say.

 

[FallenHero]

to me, i used to think they matter, but i dont belibve in tiers, exact in Melee

I have no idea what you are trying to say when you say "exact in Melee".