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Disscussion about creation of a Junior Smashers League.

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
Hello, My name is Bobby and im the owner of Excelsior Comics and Games. We currently have 5 complete set up's for PM as well as 7 Additional TV, and room to set up 10+ more. Our max capacity is somewhere around 50. I have been running a PM tournament every Monday for about 3 months now and am noticing that we get a lot of players who are interested in play, lose their first, go to losers bracket, lose that match and are out. They do this 2-3 times, then stop coming in. This lead me to the idea of a Junior Smashers bracket. Basically something for the younger or less skilled players. That way they don't get stomped over and over again right out the event.

With doing that there will be some requirements set to be in either group. win's in events and such. Its something i need to put a bit more thought into, but i wanna be able to actually create a community, where players can grow and learn, without always getting 2 matches and then being out. Our competitive crowd has been getting healthy. but its not really conducive to creating new players. So it might grow faster then it might appear on the surface. Becides, the more people we get the more we can train and the more we can grow.

I need to figure out a good way to determine who is allowed in JS. I don't want people that expect 5th place and lower to swarm the junior bracket, Also I need to figure out how long a winner can stay in the junior league. I mean I can do something arbitrary like if you can beat me consistently, your ready for the regular league. Or something like a certain amount of wins or a few weeks in a row.

Someone suggested age as a determination, sadly, I don't think age is the way to go, I don't think there is a good number. A few of our players are just stating high school, so when do you knock them out JS? Is 18 the cut off? or is it only available to people who have finished in the bottom quarter of one of our events?

So far bottom quarter finishers forming the "JS" is the most reasonable way to go I have come up with. The problem of course being how do you scale people who are new to the stores events? Cause you don't wanna say, you have to start in regulars and lose before you can play in the event you came here for. Maybe new players need some kind of assessment?

I have done a bit of brainstorming with a few of our local players and this is what we have come up with so far. Its all a bit rough and only really takes into account the experience of a few players who where willing to sit down and talk to me about this. Now I would like to open this up to the community as a whole. I know there are a lot of great players out there and even more who don't know they can be yet. Our goal is to help the community grow as healthy as possible. With a little help from those already here, I think we can really start something great.

Let me know what you think here, or shoot me a message on Facebook and we can discuss this further. Thanks
 

Binary Clone

Easy Money since 1994
Premium
Joined
Jul 11, 2014
Messages
1,275
Location
Evanston, IL
I don't think age is a good way to distinguish skill - there are younger players like Lunchables and Wizzy that still outclass a lot of other older players.

It might be best to just have both open to all - but make it clear that one is an amateur bracket for newer player, and discourage (or prevent) the players you know are good from entering the lower bracket. When people start performing well enough in junior, then, encourage them to join the higher level tournaments.

Playing it by ear might be best - because any set way of doing it can pretty much go wrong in some way. Even if someone is dominating the junior bracket, that might not necessarily mean that they'd do well in the higher level league.

Either way, you should figure out how to continue to encourage people on the lower level to play against and learn from people better than them - otherwise they'll never improve to that level.
 

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
Hmm, Interesting. Not having a hard rule that pushes you up could be good, I just don't want this to be a secondary bracket with a regular weekly winner. Like a 5 or 6th place regular finisher can crush new players like nothing. and if they can finish 6 and get no prizes or crush the Junior league and get prizes, generally they would stay where they are earning. Maybe something like you can only be in JS in the top 3 so make weeks in a row before you have to take a stab at the Regular league?
 

Cubelarooso

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
1,614
Location
[Hide my Location]
You could make it so that the Minor division's pot all goes to the the Major's (perhaps with a reduction in the Minor's entry fee). That way people who just want some easy money wouldn't enter, while those who just want to play more games get a chance. If the entrants are few enough, round robin would be good.
Not sure if that would keep players coming. You should ask the players who stopped coming why they did so.
 

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
Regular week we get 8-12, but they are usually different people. We have a pool of probably about 30 players who have played here.

Taking the pot out of the juniors entirely seems potentially reasonable, however might discourage more people then it would attract. At that point your just charging them to play for fun or to get in practice.

But maybe your on to something, Doing a JS league with round robin on the extra setup's with like a grand total of a reduced entry fee may not be a bad idea. Help them play more games and track how they are doing.

the other issue i see with a junior league is that it could pull away more competitive players by reducing the total number of entrants into the main event. Maybe this is a separate days kinda thing. Run regular PM on one day and JS on another. JS gets you into the regular event. Maybe it also earns you a event fee waved for your next event.

How about this. 3 Wins in juniors gets you a free entry into the regular league. You have to use it the next time your in or you lose it.

Im all over the place...
 

Sartron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
291
Location
Central Florida
If people are disappointed about playing only 2 or so matches per tournament, experiment with round robin or swiss brackets.
You can also establish an amateur's bracket which is for people who did not make a certain placing such as less than top 8 or whatever.

These solutions may prove excessive if you only get 8-12 people, though.
 

Binary Clone

Easy Money since 1994
Premium
Joined
Jul 11, 2014
Messages
1,275
Location
Evanston, IL
I'd agree with trying swiss. That helps to maximize playtime for everyone. You could even do swiss or round-robin pools and then have a top 8 bracket - pools won't eliminate many people, everyone gets to play a lot in pools, and most get to move on to bracket.

For small tournaments of 8-12 people, this can actually be really nice. Since they're so small they go really fast already, so the extra time isn't something you need to worry about too much.

I've gone to small locals that did that before, and it was actually pretty nice.
 

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
So do a swiss to determine a top 8 bracket? Not bad.

The big issue with only getting 8-12 is there are a lot of players who don't show from what seems like losing 2 games and being done.
 

Binary Clone

Easy Money since 1994
Premium
Joined
Jul 11, 2014
Messages
1,275
Location
Evanston, IL
So do a swiss to determine a top 8 bracket? Not bad.

The big issue with only getting 8-12 is there are a lot of players who don't show from what seems like losing 2 games and being done.
Yeah. So the Swiss solves that problem, because everyone plays like 3+ sets, then most of them go to bracket - so there will be a handful of people getting around 3 or 4 sets, then everyone else gets 5 or 6 at least.
 

FailingItUp

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
11
Instead of '3 wins of Juniors gets you into Majors free' why not let the bottom-ranked contenders of Majors get into Juniors for free the next week? That way, someone could feel confident entering Majors, then if they just get bopped out right away, they can at least take a stab at Juniors, see how they do. Maybe let the bottom ranks of Juniors in for free the next week as well? Just pitching some ideas here.
 

Paradoxium

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
3,019
Location
New Sand Fall
Instead of hosting a tournament for newer players host a smash hangout. Dedicate like a free Saturday to pm with food and music so everyone can get to know each other and play friendlies. The newer players could learn a few things and make some friends, it shows them that there is more to the community than just winning. You could even host a crew battle if you wanted to. If I didn't go to one of those I probably wouldn't be playing anymore
 

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
Hmm, Some very good ideas. I don't hate the idea of bottom juniors get free event entry the following week. Keeps them coming back and giving them a chance at getting better without paying every week.

I REALLY like the smash hangout idea. I will have to figure out a night to do that. We try to really push a hangout vibe here, We have couches for our tv setups, we have a full gaming lounge area, snacks, drinks, Mini pizzas etc. I think that is a great idea.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
If your concern is new people being disheartened by lack of gameplay, I would second sartron's suggestion of going pools into an amateur bracket, time permitting. You can offer a lower prize or not, but it at least allows people the chance to get more tourney experience for the future and offers at least a small incentive to continue trying.
 

Excelsior Games

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2014
Messages
29
I really like the idea of going from a swiss into a top 8 bracket. Ill have to run that by my players on monday and see what people think.
 
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