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Discussion: Snake as a gimmick character: What do you share?

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
It's somewhat common knowledge that Snake leans closer towards a gimmick character than a fundamentals-based one: that is, Snake functions fine as a character, but his effectiveness and winrate grows exponentially if your opponent doesn't know what his options are and the counters to all of his counterable options. This creates a bit of a contradictory environment for sharing information: the more information you share about him, the less effective yours become overall against a more Smashboards-aware opponent, but the less you share, the more stagnation occurs across the board.

(This argument probably extends to other characters as well considering the 3.5 nerfs, though that's not really the point at hand)

With that being said, out of curiosity, regarding nonstandard escapable Snake combo strings, ATs, and everything else I guess, what do you share, what do you keep to yourself, what do you vaguely hint at, what do you use in recorded matches but not state explicitly, and why do you do it?

Discuss.
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
It is though, isn't it? If everyone could tech ftilt, shield tranq, DI chaingrabs appropriately, space against grenade anti-edgeguarding so that the grenade isn't actually hit, grab and throw appropriately against grenade + shield, learn to not step on stray mines, and more, it would make the matchup that much easier.
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Well yeah, but that goes for any character. "If people just learned how to DI shine, smash DI dair and u air, and learned not to shield grab Fox's pressure it would make the matchup that much easier." In both cases, the character cannot be boiled down to just a few moves. This is only the perception you have of Snake because so many people don't have the matchup experience. I've been playing the character since 3.0 and I still wreck people I've played with weekly since that time. There's a lot more to the character than just depending on inexperience.

Also: I'm willing to bet what you see as "running into stray mines" is actually " getting pressured into stray mines because it's been forced to seem like the best option." A big (HUGE) portion of the Snake gameplan is actually just limiting options to force your opponent to make a wrong step—and I mean that quite literally, since mines are Snake's best KO move in 3.5 against everybody except fastfallers, and it's made exponentially better if you have a C4 as well. Tranq is the same way: I only ever use it in a tech chase situation where I know the opponent won't roll the other way (like when I have a mine set to that side): if it's timed correctly, tranq covers both the tech in place and the tech roll. Again, it's not as simple as "shield tranq."

I frankly never use f-tilt, so I can't speak much on that note, but what happens when they mix up with its second hitbox? You're offstage because you were too busy trying to tech it.

Shield grenade honestly is a bad habit that Snake mains get into because it's easier than timing the roll/spotdodge. But the spotdodge grenade is SOOOO GOOD because you don't get any of the shieldstun while your opponent (if they shield) does, which nets a free grab. So what happens when you try for the grab and they're really just baiting you with a spotdodge? You eat a grenade and they're free to combo you for 50% into a C4 stick/KO. ;) My point is that characters are never robotic in their actions: they always have an opportunity to mix things up on you, and if you're not respectful of that, you're gonna eat a huge punish.

It's not well established yet that Snake is a hugely technical character. It's no coincidence that the best Snake main right now (Prof Pro) is a melee fox main. It's also not well established yet that Snake players need a fantastic understanding of what advantages they have mentally over the opponent. Playing Snake requires a player to be 100% on point in both the micro- and macro-game: in both the inputs they perform and the general spacing game. Prof exercises both of these aspects at a high level, so it's no surprise his Snake performs so strongly. Snake is the most richly deep character of the cast, I think. That's why this is a stupid thread.

However, to answer your question: DAIR. DAir is so good. First three hits act as jabs, and you can mix up the number with a fastfall, while the third hit sets up for (depending on percent and character): any aerial you want, utilt, usmash, C4, or grab. I'll uthrow dair C4 people, and they tend to shield instinctively, so I'll just grab them and repeat it, or just chain grab into U-tilt C4 KO.

ALSO: Utilt is the best launcher in Snake's arsenal. It's about as strong as sweetspot up air, and has more mobility and far less startup than down smash (which otherwise is the strongest launcher). It has comparable horizontal reach to the grounded C4, comes out two frames faster than grab, has comparable vertical range, AND sets up for the KO earlier, which means that it's actually the most optimal punish for tranq hit confirms, and most other situations where you're looking to launch an opponent. For example: Marth dies to U-throw C4 combo at 81% before the grab on FD in 3.5. Marth will die to U-tilt C4 at 70% given the same parameters. Working utilt into your Snake game is really really important because Snake in general likes being below his opponents, given his Cypher, Grenades, Uair, U Smash, up tilt, and C4 all work fantastically in those situations.
 
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BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
There are a few problems with your argument. For example, unless they DI snake's ftilt properly, there is absolutely no use for Snake's ftilt except as a desperation kill move against fastfallers. Attempting to tech an ftilt doesn't prevent them from DIing the second hit properly, and I'm not actually all that sure what's wrong with being offstage from an ftilt.

Of particular note, Snake's grenade is actually negative on block if Snake tries to avoid the shieldstun associated with the grenade with a spotdodge. I'm not sure by how much (why can't the grenade hitbox show up in debug mode?), but Snake needs at least 10 frames of recovery from any form of invincibility, and combined with the shieldlag from the grenade, the grenade hitbox lasts long enough that it's not actually safe to get out of invincibility until a point at which the grenade's actually negative on block. From my personal experience, if my friend sees me using shield->grenade, he just chips away at my shield instead of attempting any sort of grab, which screws up spotdodge timing sometimes. (In other words, grenade -> invincibility itself is a gimmick of sorts without any other option to back it up)

I've also noticed that, at least when my friend plays with me, dair can be DIed relatively easily (alternatively, I'm not spacing it right when I do it), and given the long duration of the attack, the timing to DI out of it is probably more lenient than DIing anything Fox has.

Aside from those three issues, though, good post. I'll agree that Snake requires a good amount of precision to not get blown up, though there's definitely a lack of people, both at high and low levels, to capitalize on that flaw.

(I don't have the time right now, but I'll see if I can post some of my own findings later)
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
F-tilt's second hit sends at a low angle with a good deal of hitstun. In a lot of situations it'll send you offstage in such a way that you're forced to be below the stage, which is the easiest place for snake to edgeguard because all he has to do is plant a mine to cover non-sweetspot recoveries and grab ledge to cover sweetspot recoveries. On top of that Snake has massive spike and meteor hitboxes and a strong Back air. He can essentially cover all of the options of a good deal of the cast in that specific scenario. If you don't understand the positional advantage of being on stage vs. being off stage, you have a lot to learn.

The example I used was the opponent whiffing a grab, which of course means they're not shielding, which means the insufficient shield stun is a mute point.

I mean, my experience comes from playing the same group of 10 people consistently for the past year in addition to the dozens others that I play less frequently. They know how to DI Snake's stuff. Dair should be able to catch anything pretty well. If they're DIing out, then they're going to try the same thing next time: Dair feels really mobile so you're usually able to mix up where the hitboxes are, and therefore mix up the DI you need to escape it. DIing away doesn't help if Snake is dairing toward you, and DI In doesn't help if Snake is dairing away. The first three hits don't even allow for teching, either, so that's a non-issue. SH Dair can cover about a quarter of FD, and has the flexibility to cover intermediary distances as well, on top of just plain being able to end it whenever you want and go for a grab/pivot grab/etc. It's got a massive amount of options.
 
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BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Ftilt does send opponents away at a good angle, but, as previously stated, it would have to be at kill percents to make it a good move. I also generally try to kill off the top so that I have time to reload my tranq and charge a mortar and/or mine, and overall my edgeguarding's a lot less consistent than an upward kill option at the same percent (Of particular note, I still can't plant mine -> turnaround ->wavedash back consistently enough), so there's success rate to consider as well. Maybe our playstyles are just different.

Snake's aerial acceleration's the worst in the game, so SDIing away from the direction Snake's stomping towards generally works (or maybe I just need to work on my aerial movement). In general I just have trouble landing the last hit, and if memory serves, most of the time I try to go for a grab after less than 4 hits a buffered roll makes quick work of any grab attempts.

As for my own experiences, I play against one person next-to-daily, another person bi-weekly, and a bunch of other people weekly, and only the first person is able to SDI out of my down aerial relatively consistently after 3.5 came out. Maybe it's just a placebo effect, but I don't know if down aerial's as amazing as you advertise anymore after the 3.5 SDI modifiers.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Just turnaround first. You're running toward edge, right? So run toward it, do a stickywalk (so Snake's back is toward the edge) and then wavedash out of it and downsmash, then wavedash out of that to grab ledge. It's that easy.

Down air definitely got nerfed, yeah, but it's certainly not useless, either. I'm confused as to how they're buffering a roll. Aside from that being applicable only when shielding, any time I play with debug mode on my opponents go straight from yellow to being grabbed. I just slowed the footage down to 1/4 to confirm and yeah, it's a true combo. If you hit confirm the down air to grab and miss, you're just too slow so far as I can tell. You need to SHFFL the dair and jump cancel the grab, so work on the muscle memory? I dunno. If they're buffer rolling I can only assume they're shielding for a frame or two. The dair hits link together in a combo, and the grab does too if it's well executed, so they have no opportunity to shield there.
 
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BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Oh; wow, alright then. I guess my execution was just really sloppy (Was assuming that they buffered a roll somehow, since they'd always roll away or spotdodge in time). Thanks for the info.
(As for the wavedashing, it's more of a consistent failure to judge proper wavedash angle. I'm a bit lacking in the technical department at the moment, unfortunately, so sometimes I airdodge horizontally and die, or wavedash in place and get blown up by my own mine. It'll pass, I guess.)
 

Mischief

Smash Cadet
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Jan 13, 2014
Messages
72
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Cali
Snake, aside from zelda (but not really because her side b only last for a few seconds) is the only character in smash that can cover options with super strong attacks while not being in the location of the attack. It's just something so different from every other character in this game that the fundamentals which work against other characters do not apply as well to him. This can be said of many characters but I think snake stands out. I can see why this would lead to the opinion that the character is gimmicky. The fact of the matter is in order to beat a good snake you need to really know snakes options, you actually need to do your homework and study the character. He's one of those matchups you can't just wing.

Learn yo matchups
 

BND

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
174
Snake, aside from zelda (but not really because her side b only last for a few seconds) is the only character in smash that can cover options with super strong attacks while not being in the location of the attack. It's just something so different from every other character in this game that the fundamentals which work against other characters do not apply as well to him. This can be said of many characters but I think snake stands out. I can see why this would lead to the opinion that the character is gimmicky. The fact of the matter is in order to beat a good snake you need to really know snakes options, you actually need to do your homework and study the character. He's one of those matchups you can't just wing.

Learn yo matchups
I think that's the least of the problems, though. A couple of months back I played a guy who wasn't familiar with the concept of tech windows, and he actually ended up eating ~60% from an ftilt chain after a missed tech before I took pity on him and continued with Snake's usual missed ftilt tech followups, all because of a missed tech on one ftilt. The situation's even worse with down aerial if the opponent doesn't know how to SDI, since you can't really react to the tech window if your opponent's mixing up the number of hits and L-cancelling properly. In fact, grounded dair combos into grounded dair until high percentages, meaning that your opponent's completely screwed if they don't understand SDI. (Under normal cases, dair to dair is a last resort if your opponent can SDI because of Snake's terrible horizontal mobility)

In any case, I think what I was originally trying to say in this thread was that Snake has a pretty steep results to skill curve. That is, even subpar skill lets Snake players beat people obviously better than them, to the point that people unfamiliar with the matchup practically suffer a 0-100 (and many 0-deaths) on the first round they play against Snake, while people more experienced with the matchup will beat on the same Snake.

As I recently realized, though, Snake does offer enough other non-basic options to make him not just a one-trick pony, so unless PMDT decides Snake's broken, Snake's not overpowered enough at higher levels of metagaming to warrant a nerf, nor is he underpowered enough that we'd have to resort to secrecy.
 
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