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[Discussion] - An Anti-ban rule-set committee?

Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Unity is an example of why democracy sucks. Catering to a majority and deciding things by votes does not provide a fair system.
Votes aren't even a good way to do this, AT ALL, because of everyone's personal bias
Can you please explain the proper way to decide whether MK should be legal or not?

Oh here is something else you might find interesting, DEHF only thinks MK is broken with the CURRENT STAGELIST. BBR's fault. Take a hint from Japan and start doing 10 min with less stages. So yeah, you can take DEHF's pro ban vote out of that too.
Why do we have to make universal changes to the ruleset just to keep a single character legal? It doesn't make sense to remove stages that are perfectly legitimate, just to nerf MK and keep him legal.

Insinuating that we have to or should make changes to a ruleset to accomodate a single character's legality is proof enough that the character in his unrestricted self is too much for our competitive ruleset. If that's the case, then it's only logical that we attack the problem, instead of dancing around it.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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I've explained this many, many, many times if you have read the other posts I have made over the past month, but I believe the game would be BETTER AS A WHOLE with 10 min timer (This MUST be changed, PERIOD. Do I have to explain why again? [I can if I need to type it out again just ask me]), less gay stages on (I believe this should be the same in melee too), and LGL because many characters make many other great characters almost unviable to planking strategies with an infinite ledge grab limit. They would just sit at the ledge ANY time they got a lead, because they would have no intelligent reason (for winning purposes) to leave the ledge. I think there should be a LGL in Melee too because of jigglypuff (maybe Sheik, but definitely for puff) to discourage this type of play.

I believe, even without MK's existance, these rules are better for the game.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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Also, there were about ~6-8 stages BANNED BECAUSE OF FOX in Melee.

-Peach's Castle I ***** Chu Dat in tournament here, badly, back when he was better than me on other stages. The ceiling is too small and you could get the lead and Bair camp on the other side of the wall, which is what I did to ChuDat back at *pound* 1

-Onett Fox was just really good here. Wall infinites or just running away in general.

-Great Bay Very, very easy to laser camp with full jump and shoot 3 lasers from either the left or right side of the stage, and Forward B to the other side whenever they get near him. He can also Bair camp here effectively on the left or right side of the stage and always force approaches unless he does not have the stock lead.

-Corneria Very small ceiling and Bair camping on the wing, but the ceiling was the main reason.

-Mushroom Kingdom 2 I played Bum in tournament here actually, Fox vs DK, and I just waveshined him off the stage to kill him and forward Bd across the different ledges. There is no video but it definitely happened. This was during Gauntlet (late 2005 I believe?)

-Poke Floats - Fox was very good at running away on this stage, more than any other character. Also VERY low ceiling.

-Green Greens - Really low ceiling, and very easy to just laser camp. See video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMXruBycZiU

-Yoshi's Island - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M


I'm just asking for the removal of Rainbow and Brinstar (from both melee and brawl), nothing else really. I don't think they are competitive stages in general, even though that's a whole nother debate in and of itself for defining competitive which I don't want to get into but you can go back to my posts in the URC thread where I talked about it.
 
Joined
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Messages
10,050
What I meant was, if we as a community were going to decide whether MK should be banned or not, what would be the proper way to make the decision? I'm not asking for how you think the game should be played. Here it is again:

Can you please explain the proper way to decide whether MK should be legal or not?
As for your second point, I understand it completely, but I don't agree with it. Not gonna hassle you any more about it, so we can leave it at that I guess. :)
 

Blarg I'm Dead

Smash Apprentice
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Half these posts seem childish, disappointing, and like unorganized *****ing. The main thing I picked up aside all these is "lol high players should have the choice, no the TOs should stoopid."

My tourney experience is limited to Melee Play N Trade tourneys and MLG Orlando for friendlies when my friends played Halo 3. However, I play paintball at a national level and there's some similarities like arguments on play formats, scrubs *****ing about how high level play should change, etc. There's also some differences like how players are ranked divisions 5-1 and then pro, which makes some things easier when running tourneys. I'm not going to run on and bore everyone with something they probably aren't familiar with.

Bottomlines are:

when you can only choose MK or Snake to have a decent chance at winning something needs to change. Compared to 8+ characters in Melee.
High level players have the biggest impact on the metagame. They "write the textbooks" for how to play the metagame, their opinions actually matter and more.
TOs play just as important of a piece for obvious reasons and have as much say as the high level players.

Like M2K said voting isn't a great way to get this done. I'd suggest something like implement some divisions already. Back to paintball, for example higher division play to 7 points, lower divisions play to 4 points. One reason being paint is expensive and the higher your division the more things get cheaper through sponsorship and things are more frequently given to you.

Something like

Pro
Amateur
Beginner

could work. Make something where everyone (at least everyone who matters) is happy. For example if the majority of US pro players don't want MK banned, then he's unbanned in pro division. If the TOs want more turnout and newer players having a better time ban MK for amateur and beginner.

I believe implementing divisions can lead to a much more organized community as a whole. From there other things will get better, a smoother transition to pro level, more accuracy when people say things like Melee Shiek is better than Melee Fox at mid level play, and more. Not to mention I'd be much more interested in attending MLG, Apex, Genesis, etc. when I know I can aim for making podium in Amateur instead of "lol make sure I don't get beat too bad by pro players much better than me but keep playing and improving. Try not to let that cash you spend on a plane ticket/gas get to you man."

This would make players of every level happy and give TOs some flexibility with rules.
 

Mew2King

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can be taken both ways

hes not neccessarily anti either

gotcha :troll:
I never said that I said he doesn't care either way, which is exactly what he told me. Atomsk doesn't think MK is good enough to be banned he just thinks he's really good, he didn't vote for that reason either, and DEHF just thinks the stages are bad. Read my post above where I relate it to Melee. Except I'm only asking for 2 stages to be removed, not 6-8
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
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I'm not sure what the best way to make decisions is in this community. I've always made the rulesets for my country through polling the active tournament attending community and discussion between top players, which works well for us. I don't think you should be asking just the masses, just TOs or just top players, but fairly weigh everyone's interest and the data available to you. Sadly, the Brawl community is young and most people honestly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to competitive gaming and analyzing statistics. As far as banning a character goes, you really have to wonder to what extent alternative routes have been tried and to what extent you as an individual player have mastered the game and the matchup, before you vote.

We're past all that though, a group of TOs has made the decision and the US will have to deal with it. However, you don't need a counter-group agreeing to not ban MK. TOs should just not ban him if they don't agree with the ban, it's that simple. You're not the deviation from the status quo if you don't ban a character the rest of the world is keeping legal. The American community is already split by this decision, so from here on out people should just do what they think is right.

Mew2King: Please stop saying the BBR is keeping stages legal, it's the URC and they're not the same organizations. Don't hold us responsible for their decisions, for better or for worse.
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
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AZ continuously showing his bias. Top 100 was 40:60 ratio, but he'll use in his argument a rankings that will benefit him so he'll say 7/10 of the top 10.
Okay, top 100 is 60% in favor of ban. That is, by the way, a type of super majority.

eg:
Apart from these constitutional requirements, a Senate rule requires a supermajority of three fifths to move to a vote through a cloture motion, which closes debate on a bill or nomination, thus ending a filibuster by a minority of members. In current practice, the mere threat of a filibuster prevents passing almost any measure that has less than three-fifths agreement in the Senate—60 of the 100 senators.
This is, by the way, the typical super majority that is referenced in American Politics because it is the most common issue (even though the 2/3rds super majority applies to more things).
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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hmm interesting but this ENTIRE TIME, for past 3 years, we have been referring to 2/3rds as a super-majority. However all of my points I have made are still valid.

edit - wow <_< that website says that anything over 50% is a supermajority. I would consider that a majority not a supermajority, since there are only TWO OPTIONS TO CHOOSE FROM

edit again - ... man... I can't believe you'd even make that kind of argument at all <_<; that is almost irrelevent lol
 

Zankoku

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Wow, this thread. Mew2King, go back here, so you can keep your complaining to a single place. Last I checked this was supposed to be a discussion on setting up a ruleset with Meta Knight legal.
 

Okuser

Smash Ace
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Wow, this thread. Mew2King, go back here, so you can keep your complaining to a single place. Last I checked this was supposed to be a discussion on setting up a ruleset with Meta Knight legal.
Mew2King! they are trying to silence you! everything will just get buried in that thread!!! DONT DO IT!!!!
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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yea I know that already lol. That thread is pointless now. But I already said everything I needed to in this thread, and I'm at college and am about to go home now and study for my test monday so I'll get back to this stuff later or just leave it at that, leaving all my VALID POINTS here that are never responded to. bbl
 

Laem

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Can you please explain the proper way to decide whether MK should be legal or not?
Why didn't the BBR decide (Ideally at least; putting aside that the factual bbr is somewhat of a joke)? Why let a bunch of TO's decide while there's another group out there that makes the tierlists and is therefore expected to know the "place" of each character in the current metagame and therefore should be able to come to a fundamentally better decision?
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
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They sorta arrived at the same decision before the URC arrived to theirs. :/

However, you don't need a counter-group agreeing to not ban MK. TOs should just not ban him if they don't agree with the ban, it's that simple. You're not the deviation from the status quo if you don't ban a character the rest of the world is keeping legal. The American community is already split by this decision, so from here on out people should just do what they think is right.
I agree with this completely.
 
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